woodstock
Final Approach
wow. I'm speechless. so we're all paying for it now.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/11/business/11air.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/11/business/11air.html
Joe Williams said:It's an absolute and deliberate betrayal. .
bstratt said:GM will be next to "renegotiate" pensions and benefits for retirees!
There are quite a few companies who in the good years promised defined benefit pensions and benefits that now have seriously underfunded plans.
woodstock said:how can anyone talk about privatizing Social Security with a straight face, with this kind of stuff happening?
betrayal - right on. could you just imagine working your whole life for a company and then being told "oops, we cannot pay your pension".
do the big guys even have a clue how the people, who actually make the companies run, live? what they are going through?
Joe Williams said:If anything, this speaks out even more strongly for privatized pension plans that individuals have control of. The people affected by the United pension fiasco are at the mercy of their company, just as those of us facing having our Social Security benefits that we are paying for destroyed are at the mercy of the government. Both cases call out for individual control of independent pension plans. United employees trusted their company to maintain a pension plan they were promised, and those of us forced to pay into Social Security hope for a pension plan we were promised. Neither those who trust in companies like United nor those of us looking for the promised Social Security payouts will get what we've paid for. The ONLY solution is privatized retirement plans..
Joe Williams said:BTW, I don't have to imagine paying for a pension plan all my life, then being told "oops, we cannot pay your pension". That is the reality of Social Security for both me and you, unless you are considerably older than you look in your pictures.
bstratt said:GM will be next to "renegotiate" pensions and benefits for retirees!
There are quite a few companies who in the good years promised defined benefit pensions and benefits that now have seriously underfunded plans.
N2212R said:Why should any company be required to pay a pension after you leave? My company certainly isn't going to do that when I retire. No company I ever worked for provided that. If I wanted to retire, then I saved my own money. It's not like a 30 year captain is hurting financially. (Yes I know, not everyone is a 30 year captain.) Pensions, social security, other retirement plans where the beneficiary does not play an active role (i.e 401k, SEP, or other programs) should be done away with.
Skip Miller said:Don't be deluded that this mess stops at the corporate plans. I know of at least one state defined benefit pension plan that is woefully underfunded, down near 80% of the amount they need. -Skip
woodstock said:underfunded sounds like there is intent involved.
Joe Williams said:It's an absolute and deliberate betrayal. None of the people running that airline who are destroying the lives of their employees will be feeling a money pinch. The employees would be within their rights to strike or quit, leaving this airline to go down. If they don't, they are accepting this, and have no room to complain, IMHO.
woodstock said:underfunded sounds like there is intent involved.
Sure there's intent involved, but it isn't necessarily "let's screw people outta their pensions."woodstock said:underfunded sounds like there is intent involved.
Joe Williams said:If anything, this speaks out even more strongly for privatized pension plans that individuals have control of. The people affected by the United pension fiasco are at the mercy of their company, just as those of us facing having our Social Security benefits that we are paying for destroyed are at the mercy of the government. Both cases call out for individual control of independent pension plans. United employees trusted their company to maintain a pension plan they were promised, and those of us forced to pay into Social Security hope for a pension plan we were promised. Neither those who trust in companies like United nor those of us looking for the promised Social Security payouts will get what we've paid for. The ONLY solution is privatized retirement plans.
BTW, I don't have to imagine paying for a pension plan all my life, then being told "oops, we cannot pay your pension". That is the reality of Social Security for both me and you, unless you are considerably older than you look in your pictures.
Keith Lane said:And then there's this from Polaroid.
Retirees (around 6,000 of them), some with 40 years of service get a one time payout of $47.
Management, top two guys who have been there less than 4 years, get $21Million between them.
Lessee, 6,000X$47=$282,000.
$21Million / 6,000=$3,500.
Why would a bankruptcy judge allow this to happen? I could run a company out of business faster and for around half that kind of payoff. I'd even promise not to ever do it again.
http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2005/04/27/polaroid_sale_worth47_to_each_retiree?mode=PF
One of them was Jacques Nasser, the Aussie that ran Ford for a while. I'm sure he really needs the cash.
Hmmm
corjulo said:Aw, The universe is returned to balance, we completely disagree of these points
Private accounts, as structured by the presidents plan, put you at the mercy of the fund manager and at the strength of the company selling you the annuity you're forced to buy at retirement. I think you better study the presidents plan a little closer...Its a dog
woodstock said:snip
sure, CEOs should make good money, but when the bankruptcies happen (especially if it is on their watch) they should be stripped to the bone just like everyone else in the company.
woodstock said:how can anyone talk about privatizing Social Security with a straight face, with this kind of stuff happening?
woodstock said:how can anyone talk about privatizing Social Security with a straight face, with this kind of stuff happening?
betrayal - right on. could you just imagine working your whole life for a company and then being told "oops, we cannot pay your pension".
do the big guys even have a clue how the people, who actually make the companies run, live? what they are going through?
woodstock said:underfunded sounds like there is intent involved.
Joe Williams said:DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!! A successful executive deserves all the perks and pay the shareholders want to give him/her. A failure who destroys the lives of the company's workers and the company should be considered lucky to be able to afford a twenty year old mobile home after the courts finish stripping him/her.
Keith Lane said:Why would a bankruptcy judge allow this to happen? I could run a company out of business faster and for around half that kind of payoff. I'd even promise not to ever do it again.
lancefisher said:Who do you suppose was paying the laywers to negotiate the bankruptcy? The pensioners or the executives?
Gary said:Do have a question - where does the Federal Pension Board receive its funding? General revenue or a specific fee/tax on business?
Gary
Ed Guthrie said:All three (you forgot the creditors/shareholders)--that's the way bankruptcy works.
Arnold said:The next few years in the airline industry are going to be very ugly for employees and shareholders, - bankruptcy lawyers should do fairly well.
gibbons said:Whew! I know I'll sleep better knowing the attorneys are well fed.