Uh oh

Richard

Richard

Final Approach
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Ack...city life
I shot an e-mail to my brother containing Tom's pics of the formation making a wheelie on the water. His response? He thinks the pilots are being very stupid. He had the audacity to compare them to the guy who overloaded his car. You remember that, don't you? Pics were splashed all over the 'net as a testament to absolute stupidity.

Anyway, my brother hangs out with the NASA and JPL crowd so if you see any negative feedback on the T-34 pilots it probably started here. Sorry.
 
Until someone convinces me it really happened, I am writing it off to good computer graphics work.
 
Ron Levy said:
Until someone convinces me it really happened, I am writing it off to good computer graphics work.
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Me, too - it looks great, but I'm skeptical
 
it's not that difficult to do,, STUPID,, but not hard..

And with T-6s yeah really really STUPID.

I hope it was fresh water.
 
Richard said:
Anyway, my brother hangs out with the NASA and JPL crowd so if you see any negative feedback on the T-34 pilots it probably started here. Sorry.
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Nah. Those photos are all over the place. I've had three different people email them to me.
 
NC19143 said:
it's not that difficult to do,, STUPID,, but not hard..

And with T-6s yeah really really STUPID.

I hope it was fresh water.
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Tom, I'm interested in your assessment that they were being stupid. If a pilot has the required skill and experience...

To me it's no different than advanced aerobatics. Is it stupid for those guys to go to the edge of the performance envelope? It would be stupid for me to do (more like attempt) those maneuvers but how 'bout a Wayne Handley or equal?
 
Richard said:
It would be stupid for me to do (more like attempt) those maneuvers but how 'bout a Wayne Handley or equal?
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Thats the problem I think Richard, when new stunts appear and are promoted, somebody who cannot do it properly, will - with the usual consequences.
Aerobatics by untrained people takes a few periodically as well but is an known sport with accepted training standards... unlike some of these other things we might run across.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Thats the problem I think Richard, when new stunts appear and are promoted, somebody who cannot do it properly, will - with the usual consequences.
Aerobatics by untrained people takes a few periodically as well but is an known sport with accepted training standards... unlike some of these other things we might run across.
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I don't think I agree. Any pilot who decides to try a new "experience" with obvious risks just because he saw a picture of someone else doing it is likely to find some way to do himself in eventually without any outside help. IOW I feel the problem is with the pilots who will attempt to copy without the experience/training/knowledge rather than the ones performing the "stunt" successfully.
 
Richard said:
Tom, I'm interested in your assessment that they were being stupid. If a pilot has the required skill and experience...
To me it's no different than advanced aerobatics. Is it stupid for those guys to go to the edge of the performance envelope? It would be stupid for me to do (more like attempt) those maneuvers but how 'bout a Wayne Handley or equal?
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I've done acro, formation, and formation acro, so I understand those demands. Formation acro really doesn't involve thinking about the acro by the wingment -- just concentrating on maintaining position on on the plane on which you are positioning yourself, and listening to lead call what's coming so you can anticipate necessary control and throttle movements. Only lead worries about how to perform the maneuver itself, including doing it so the wingmen can stay in position.

I've never done a "wheelie on the water," but I understand it's done in Alaska for landings on small shores, using Tundra tires or equivalent. I suspect this "wheelie" maneuver is very demanding of pilot concentration on the control of the aircraft with respect to the water. At the same time, close formation requires nearly 100% concentration on the plane on which you are maintaining position. Thus, it might be more than any pilot could handle to do the "wheelie" while in close formation -- you might not be able divide/shift your attention fast enough to do both simultaneously.
 
lancefisher said:
I feel the problem is with the pilots who will attempt to copy without the experience/training/knowledge rather than the ones performing the "stunt" successfully.
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I've seen a lot of this in the area of self-taught formation flying. The problem is that folks think it's just about putting two planes side by side in flight, and that's not true. The level of thought and planning is far more than folks realize without putting considerable thought into the "what-if's." Peter Bedell's AOPA Pilot article "Know When to Say When: How things can go wrong during a formation flight" only scratches the surface of how bad things get get in only a heartbeat. I recommend reading the articles here if you're interested in why it's not so easy to fly even simple 2-ship nonaerobatic formation.
 
I flew a lot of rotary wing formation back on active duty in Vietnam. We were flying 80 to 100 hours a month. Flew in formation out to the forward operating area and back each day. If inserting troops (which I did not do a lot of) that was done in formation. Got to where the rotors were about 3 feet apart. As Ron said, other than lead, we all just fixated on one point of the aircraft ahead and maintained spacing as precisely as possible. Lead make standard rate turns and led very predictably. There was a reason for that. It was very dangerous. Years later when I saw guys doing this in the states, the formations were much looser. They didn't have nearly as much flying time; weren't up each day and there wasn't a tactical emergency.

Just commenting in general.

Dave
 
Ron Levy said:
I've done acro, formation, and formation acro, so I understand those demands. Formation acro really doesn't involve thinking about the acro by the wingment -- just concentrating on maintaining position on on the plane on which you are positioning yourself, and listening to lead call what's coming so you can anticipate necessary control and throttle movements. Only lead worries about how to perform the maneuver itself, including doing it so the wingmen can stay in position.

I've never done a "wheelie on the water," but I understand it's done in Alaska for landings on small shores, using Tundra tires or equivalent. I suspect this "wheelie" maneuver is very demanding of pilot concentration on the control of the aircraft with respect to the water. At the same time, close formation requires nearly 100% concentration on the plane on which you are maintaining position. Thus, it might be more than any pilot could handle to do the "wheelie" while in close formation -- you might not be able divide/shift your attention fast enough to do both simultaneously.
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Ron, after seeing the Blue Angels for these many years I believe anything is possible for the right pilot. Being AF you may want to substitute Thunderbirds...I guess that would be alright:)
 
Richard said:
Tom, I'm interested in your assessment that they were being stupid. If a pilot has the required skill and experience...

To me it's no different than advanced aerobatics. Is it stupid for those guys to go to the edge of the performance envelope? It would be stupid for me to do (more like attempt) those maneuvers but how 'bout a Wayne Handley or equal?
Click to expand...

To do this in a vintage non replacable aircraft is stupid in my opinion. The water in the lake must be very smooth, a little chop is OK 4-6" but a boat wake of over 12' would be like stubbing your toe.

In these photos your pilot attention is spread too thin, holding position altitude and watching for debrie. Nope I think its called walking too close to the edge.

In a s/cub on tundra tires approaching the beach, its tough enough to judge the speed so as not to sink before hitting land is aquired knowledge, and a bunch of s/cubs get wrecked each year doing it.
 
Tom, duly noted. But I've heard folks say flying in small planes is stupid. I say that's more a reflection on their assumption of risk more than the actual flying in small planes.

Now that I think of it, why do you have a picture of pilots acting stupid as a screen saver on your computer?:)
 
Ron Levy said:
Until someone convinces me it really happened, I am writing it off to good computer graphics work.
Click to expand...

That was my first thought as well. Although the shadows of the aircraft were convincing, there was no water being pushed out in front of the tire. Also, they were all just a little too uniform to be believable. BTW, Photoshop is how I earn a living.
 
Richard said:
Tom, I'm interested in your assessment that they were being stupid. If a pilot has the required skill and experience...
Click to expand...

Not Tom, but my thinking is it would be, at best, a very risky manuever for even a skilled aerobatic team. All it would take is a small unseen wave to upset the lead aircraft causing a chain reaction. And if performed in front of a crowd only the folks in the front row would be able to see it. I dunno. Being far removed from that skill level myself, I still have trouble with the idea that that would be a manuever that even a highly seasoned team would want to include in a performance. Just MHO.
 
Frank Browne said:
That was my first thought as well. Although the shadows of the aircraft were convincing, there was no water being pushed out in front of the tire. Also, they were all just a little too uniform to be believable. BTW, Photoshop is how I earn a living.
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Frank, are there ways to tell if a photo has been 'improved'? You know, maybe the guy left a clue which only the sharp and talented can find.
 
Richard said:
Frank, are there ways to tell if a photo has been 'improved'? You know, maybe the guy left a clue which only the sharp and talented can find.
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You're right. I have not copied the image to look for any clues however. I may do that later today if I get the chance. Do you remember offhand which thread it was in?
 
Richard said:
Now that I think of it, why do you have a picture of pilots acting stupid as a screen saver on your computer?:)
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I said it was stupid, I didn't say it wasn't pretty.
 
Frank Browne said:
You're right. I have not copied the image to look for any clues however. I may do that later today if I get the chance. Do you remember offhand which thread it was in?
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Why is there no shadow under the starboard wing of the left-most plane (as viewed in the pic)?
 
etsisk said:
Why is there no shadow under the starboard wing of the left-most plane (as viewed in the pic)?
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maybe its just me, but I see a shadow under both wings on the left most plane.
 
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