U.S. Brings back the .45

gkainz

Final Approach
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Display name:
Greg Kainz
From an old shooting partner from my Navy days:
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Subject: U.S. Brings Back the .45!

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
U.S. Brings Back the .45!

After two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense is getting
rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45
caliber) weapon.

There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the
.45) hitting power of the 9mm. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special
Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber
pistols as "official alternatives" to the M9 Beretta. But now SOCOM has
been given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP
(Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs are being evaluated, but all must
be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high
capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 will also have a rail up top
for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length must be no more
than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.

The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was,
as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern
designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more
ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is
actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense
plans to buy 645,000 JCPs. SOCOM will, with input from other branches,
handle the evaluation and final selection.

This will take place this year, and if the military moves with unaccustomed
alacrity, troops could start getting their JCPs next year. But don't hold
your breath.*

* NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 <U.S.C.> Section 107, this material
* is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a
* prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
* educational purposes only. Provided by G2-Forward.

-------------------------------------------------
 
Greg,

I've seen this on some of the shooting boards I visit. The general consensus is that the 9MM and Beretta M9 will be around for quite some time. Beretta was recently contracted to produce more new M9's for the U.S. armed forces to replace the aging ones. Don't expect to see new HK or Sig .45's in the inventory anytime soon. You know how the guberment works. :)

BTW. Nothing wrong with a 9MM if modern, +P, jacketed, hollow point ammo is used. The armed forces are stuck with regular Nato FMJ ammo which does not expand well. If I was stuck using this, I'd want a .45 too.
 
Anthony said:
Greg,

I've seen this on some of the shooting boards I visit. The general consensus is that the 9MM and Beretta M9 will be around for quite some time. Beretta was recently contracted to produce more new M9's for the U.S. armed forces to replace the aging ones. Don't expect to see new HK or Sig .45's in the inventory anytime soon. You know how the guberment works. :)

BTW. Nothing wrong with a 9MM if modern, +P, jacketed, hollow point ammo is used. The armed forces are stuck with regular Nato FMJ ammo which does not expand well. If I was stuck using this, I'd want a .45 too.

The NATO 9mm ball doesn't expand at all. It also overpenetrates to an astounding degree. Not generally a concern in a combat zone, a real concern to those of us who had to carry it in a law enforcement setting in places like base housing areas. Plus, the ammo was loaded way to hot for a 9mm, which doesn't contribute to pistol longevity.

For those of us in the USAF Security Police (now Security Forces), though, it was a major improvement over what we carried when I first went in. Namely, the S&W Model 15 .38 Special, loaded with 130 grain ball. Not a barn burner by any stretch of the imagination. Still, it did do the job when I needed it to.

The M9 pistol itself was, and is, a great weapon, IMHO. I've NEVER had one malfunction. Not during training, qualification firing, or during untold thousands of rounds when I shot one in competition. Not a single malfunction. The M1911 isn't even that good. I've actually got an expert pistol medal from the Navy I got when I qualified with the Gov Model, from a time when I was securing some of their stuff. Those guns were clobbered, so were the ones our Army counterparts had to carry. There weren't as pleased as we were to be going to the 9mm, but they sure liked getting new guns.

And I think Springfield has a good chance at securing the contract, btw.
 
Joe Williams said:
And I think Springfield has a good chance at securing the contract, btw.

Do you mean the Springfield XD series? Good pistol. I know the armed forces are already using HK's in .45, but the XD would definetly be cheaper. Low bidder anyone? I've also heard of some Rugers in the inventory.
 
Anthony said:
Do you mean the Springfield XD series? Good pistol. I know the armed forces are already using HK's in .45, but the XD would definetly be cheaper. Low bidder anyone? I've also heard of some Rugers in the inventory.

Ruger is another that I think has a decent chance. Their 345 is a nice pistol. Don't know if it'll float the boat of the types making the selection, though, unless they significantly underbid the fancy guns the special ops guys like.
 
Anthony said:
Do you mean the Springfield XD series? Good pistol. I know the armed forces are already using HK's in .45, but the XD would definetly be cheaper. Low bidder anyone? I've also heard of some Rugers in the inventory.

If I'm not mistaken, that is the HK USP Socom - .45.

I like the HK. Although I've got a James Bond P99 myself.
 
I've seen plenty of photo's from Iraq where our soldiers have the venerable 1911 stuck in a holster or being carried in their hands. An old design, but one that is still used quite a bit today.
 
I could go into a lot of background, but a .45 is a close in weapon of last resort that essentially is to be pointed and shot; it's not a long range engagement weapon. Training should focus on quickly engaging close targets by pointing, shooting; and then, rapidly moving to the next target. This weapon was originally developed in reaction to the Moro tribe attacks in the Philippines: drugged natives would attack our positions in mass and continue to advance after being shot by a .30cal machine gun; the bolt action 30.06 and the .38 pistol. The .45 was designed to transfer the energy necessary to put the attacker down. Once down, even drugged, it was difficult for these attackers to get back on their feet and attack again.

IMO, the move to the 9mm was motivated by issues having little to do with anything but standardizing ammunition with our NATO allies. As a former front line combat officer, I heard few complaints among my peers that actually employed the .45 in a life or death situation. Lots of grumbles from others that thought it should be easier to shoot; hold more ammo; have less recoil, etc. Perhaps there should be more than one side arm available in the Army. There are a lot of missions the 9mm could be more applicable to.


Special Opns folks are carrying these again for the above reasons. Military use is different than police use. If in a position that is being overwhelmed by a mass of hostile humanity: give me the .45.


Dave
 
NC Pilot said:
I've seen plenty of photo's from Iraq where our soldiers have the venerable 1911 stuck in a holster or being carried in their hands. An old design, but one that is still used quite a bit today.


Mark you know I'm a huge 1911 fan. Still one of the best platforms for launching the .45 or 9MM for that matter. I've shot a 1911 in 9MM and it was very nice, although I think the .45 ACP is a pretty soft shooting round also. I like both calibers.

You'll also see our soldiers carrying AK's in Iraq.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Special Opns folks are carrying these again for the above reasons. Military use is different than police use. If in a position that is being overwhelmed by a mass of hostile humanity: give me the .45.

Dave,

Due to your recommendation, I just finished reading John Paster's book "SOG". I can't believe what you guys did and the bravery shown by our special forces. The casualty rate was incredible. Plaster also mentioned turning in his suppressed, 9MM Swedish K submachine gun for a CAR-15 in 5.56 MM for more stopping power. People need to realize what our soliders did in S.E. Asia and the odds they faced behind enemy lines. All heroes in my book.
 
Anthony said:
Dave,

Due to your recommendation, I just finished reading John Paster's book "SOG". I can't believe what you guys did and the bravery shown by our special forces. The casualty rate was incredible. Plaster also mentioned turning in his suppressed, 9MM Swedish K submachine gun for a CAR-15 in 5.56 MM for more stopping power. People need to realize what our soliders did in S.E. Asia and the odds they faced behind enemy lines. All heroes in my book.
Anthony, Same opinion as you regarding these folks. If you get a chance, read "Low Level Hell" by Hugh Mills. His accounts of the low level helicopter ops in Vietnam supporting the FAC efforts.

Amazing stuff.
 
Its just tough to beat the .45 acp when you are stuck with FMJ ammo. The 9mm is a fine round when you can use expanding ammo but if not it just does not make a big enough hole or transfer enough energy.
 
Anthony said:
Dave,

Due to your recommendation, I just finished reading John Paster's book "SOG". I can't believe what you guys did and the bravery shown by our special forces. The casualty rate was incredible. Plaster also mentioned turning in his suppressed, 9MM Swedish K submachine gun for a CAR-15 in 5.56 MM for more stopping power. People need to realize what our soliders did in S.E. Asia and the odds they faced behind enemy lines. All heroes in my book.

Well, I'm impressed Anthony. A lot of guys did much more than me; I just got in the way of some fragmentation in a country called Laos -- of course, we were never there!

Glad you enjoyed the book and I very much appreciate your remarks.

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
A lot of guys did much more than me; I just got in the way of some fragmentation in a country called Laos -- of course, we were never there!

Glad you enjoyed the book and I very much appreciate your remarks.

Dave. If we weren't in S.E. Asia, the Cold War may have lasted a lot longer than it did. Showing the Soviet Union and China that we were willing to fight may have stopped a lot more of other Vietnams cropping up around the world. It wasn't the meaningless war the media and many people want to make it. It angers me the way soldiers were treated and how some of the U.S. population still ignores the heroic deeds of you guys. Thanks again.
 
NC Pilot said:
If you get a chance, read "Low Level Hell" by Hugh Mills. His accounts of the low level helicopter ops in Vietnam supporting the FAC efforts.

Amazing stuff.

I'll check it out Mark. Spending so much time on planes lately, unfortunately not my own, I have some time to read. I can only look at my laptop for so long.
 
Anthony said:
I'll check it out Mark. Spending so much time on planes lately, unfortunately not my own, I have some time to read. I can only look at my laptop for so long.

See if you enjoy this preview at all.

Dave
 

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Thanks Dave. Very interesting.
 
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