Turbine JMB VL3

Discussion in 'Home Builders and Sport Pilots' started by Andrew Morris, Apr 17, 2022.

  1. Andrew Morris

    Andrew Morris Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    80

    Display name:
    Jetcat3
    Rotax 915 installed is 200 pounds on average.
     
  2. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    6,021

    Display name:
    Bell206
    FYI: those micro-turbines have been around for a number of years to include those with recuperators. We just had a small PoA discussion on those engines in the Velocity V-twin thread last month which has 2 micro-turbines installed. The big play for those micro-turbines is on the e-flight side and not the LSA or conventional aircraft market and is the sole reason Safran bought into Turbotech.
     
  3. Andrew Morris

    Andrew Morris Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    80

    Display name:
    Jetcat3
    The two turbines installed in the Velocity are PBS. 35GPH between the two engines. Twin Turbotech’s on a smaller platform could yield 240HP at 18GPH.
     
  4. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    3,702
    Location:
    Sanford NC

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    I like the idea of having a small turbine on the market. The only real benefit is/could be reliability and the fact it can run on just about anything with 100LL being constantly challenged. New designs in aviation only take off with hefty financial backing. I doubt the Rotax 912 would have ever been as popular as it is had it not been for the deep pockets of the company. You have to be able to take losses for several years until the volumes reach a profitable level. Very few startups can manage that on top of development cost.

    The most recent company to really succeed in my opinion is Verner. They played the game well and are seeing the rewards. So they are proof it can happen, just luck of the draw.
     
    Datadriver likes this.
  5. donjohnston

    donjohnston Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    1,788
    Location:
    Panama City, FL

    Display name:
    Don
    Since when did E/AB require an approved engine?
     
    Skepilot and skier like this.
  6. tsts4

    tsts4 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,461
    Location:
    Tampa, FL

    Display name:
    Auburntsts
    They don't--never said they did. That particular post was in reference to the JMB VL3 airplane and/or kit, not the engine.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2022
  7. Racerx

    Racerx Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 15, 2020
    Messages:
    1,874

    Display name:
    Ernie
    It's funny, the jmb "dealer" in the us says it can be flown in any number of categories. SLSA is one of them. You can't claim cruise of 195 knots AND claim it can be flown as an SLSA. Now you're just lying and lost any credibility
     
    bbchien likes this.
  8. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    3,702
    Location:
    Sanford NC

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    Why not? Several companies play the game of having the same plane in both categories. All they do is change the rated power level. The real make it or break it number as to if it will fit into the slsa category is the stall speed.
     
  9. Andrew Morris

    Andrew Morris Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    80

    Display name:
    Jetcat3
    You can already buy a VL3 as an SLSA, it’ll just have to be fixed gear and propeller. But you can still get respectable speeds with the 915 fixed pitch propeller combination as Bristell has already shown hitting 145 knots true at altitude and still staying within ASTM consensus standards.
     
  10. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    4,845

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    That would give an SFC that is on par with the absolute best of the PT6 engines, which is unlikely.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2022
  11. Dave Anderson

    Dave Anderson Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2021
    Messages:
    336
    Location:
    Twice a month beside Biden's WH retreat.

    Display name:
    SkyDreams
    It looks like my Bristell, not sure I'd strap a jet to such low-weight aircraft for practicality.
     
  12. Andrew Morris

    Andrew Morris Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    80

    Display name:
    Jetcat3
    VL3 is quite a different animal being all composite but BRM just dropped photos of their turbine Bristell utilizing the same Turbotech engine.
     
  13. Dave Anderson

    Dave Anderson Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2021
    Messages:
    336
    Location:
    Twice a month beside Biden's WH retreat.

    Display name:
    SkyDreams
    I saw that today. It looks awesome with the longer nose. Still want to understand the specs

    the VL3 would be awesome if it had a chance to be certified or if the FAA wouldn’t drag their *** like a dog w worms on mosiac.
     
    TCABM likes this.
  14. mappz

    mappz Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2022
    Messages:
    1

    Display name:
    mappz
    Like others in this thread, I'm eagerly awaiting real-world experience of how the TurboTech engine truly performs in a light aircraft. I'm concerned about availability of parts and service for US customers, and of course if the specified performance numbers hold up. I'm not holding my breath!

    In 5 years' time, I can see myself as in a position to justify owning a half share in a 2-seater experimental aircraft to operate in US and Canadian airspace. Perhaps a Jet-A burning E/AB like the VL3 is the ticket.
     
  15. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,687
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    Cluemeister likes this.
  16. WDD

    WDD En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    3,616
    Location:
    Atlanta / KRYY

    Display name:
    Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
    I'll start to get interested when a kit or certified aircraft is available with a turbine and it out performs what is currently offered. Keep us posted.
     
    TCABM likes this.
  17. Dave Anderson

    Dave Anderson Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2021
    Messages:
    336
    Location:
    Twice a month beside Biden's WH retreat.

    Display name:
    SkyDreams
    I'll be interested when i see the cost comparison. I can buy a 915 for my LSA doesn't mean I want to!
     
  18. Skepilot

    Skepilot Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    92
    Location:
    USA

    Display name:
    Skepilot
    This article says the TG-R90 will be 140,000 euros, close to $150k USD. (And that article is nearly a year old. Price has surely increased with the current rate of inflation.) I'd love a turbine, but not paying 3.5X the price of a Rotax 915iS for an engine with less power and similar fuel burn. TBO difference is insufficient to supplant the price difference, especially considering the 915iS TBO is targeted to be increased to 2000 in the not-too-distant future.

    I still think it's promising, super-cool technology. Wishing these guys luck, and maybe they can bring the price down with scale in the future. In the meantime I think I'll keep my 915iS!
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2022
  19. DMD3.

    DMD3. Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    338
    Location:
    Tifton, Ga

    Display name:
    DMD3.
    Sorry if this is off topic, but according to the JMB website, they offer a fixed gear version. Any idea of the difference in cruise speed of the retractable? The website makes no mention of it, and there may not be any FG’s flying. If the difference is not that great, I would prefer the FG due to lower maintenance costs, not to mention insurance.

    Ps, I’m not interested in the turboprop, just one of the 3 Rotax engines.
     
  20. pfarber

    pfarber Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2021
    Messages:
    365

    Display name:
    pfarber
    Unless they are making it out of paper a Brayton cycle crushes an otto cycle.

    Rotax has a sketchy history to begin with.

    Also, who is saying you won't get an E/AB certificate with this engine? The FAA might give you more stage 1 hours, but ban it? Lol no.
     
  21. Warmi

    Warmi Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    579
    Location:
    IL

    Display name:
    Warmi
    No more than any other internal combustion engines.
     
    Skepilot likes this.
  22. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    13,962

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    More to reliability than simply Brayton vs Otto. This is the first example of a heat exchanger turbine for this company in an aviation application. Until I see data showing several years of reliable service, I’m just not going to assume their word for it and that it beats out a Rotax.

    Furthermore, what kind of scheduled maintenance is required? What type of support after the sale does the customer get? Parts availability / cost? What A&Ps are willing to work on it? Can easily find someone willing to work on a Rotax. Finding a mech that’s familiar with TurboTech could be a problem.
     
    Skepilot likes this.
  23. CJones

    CJones Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    5,464
    Location:
    Jawjuh

    Display name:
    uHaveNoIdea
    I'm pretty much convinced that the only way I'm ever going to get that turbine rush again is to play startup sounds of a PT6 in my headphones when starting the IO-540. Maybe I can wire it up to a heat exchanger to give a whiff of burning kerosene in the cockpit at just the right time.
     
    Jim K likes this.
  24. O2 Birddog

    O2 Birddog Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2022
    Messages:
    122

    Display name:
    O2 Birddog
    It's much easier and natural to "believe" when you are young and haven't had much practical or life experience.

    The older we get the more resistant to change typically are as well.

    I'm all for youth, excitement, and innovation but I generally wait until any new tech has been proven out for at least a decade before jumping on the wagon even if it is something I'm really excited about.
     
  25. Racerx

    Racerx Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 15, 2020
    Messages:
    1,874

    Display name:
    Ernie
    Wouldn't say resistant to change. Just jaded from all the false hope.
     
    O2 Birddog likes this.