Trolling for Dr. Bruce, trolling for Dr. Bruce...

[Palmpilot]

...All I'm asking is to not reject his studies so you meat eaters can continue to eat guilt-free, if that's how they make you feel...

What does guilt have to do with it?

 

[ClimbnSink]

Gliders, hot air balloons, part 103 contraptions. All available fun(maybe not balloons)flying.

 

[Ghery]

Probably the only one on this board who can confirm my following observation is Ghery, who has witnessed that I'm a short guy, at 5'6" or so and not overweight. You name it, I'll eat it; was born to eat. Since a Junior in high school(1960-1961) I've been at 136-138 lbs. I've seen a few pounds added after some fabulous soiree but the extras will be gone in a couple days. Last Saturday I attended the blood drive at Lewiston-Auburn Harley Davidson to share some of my rare B- type blood(and to attend the Chili Cook-off). Man, the questions one has to answer these days just to donate blood. Very personal stuff! So, as usual, they took my blood pressure: 117/70. And at 70 years old(January 06) I've qualified for the Seniors Season Pass at Saddleback Ski Area. Those 13 varieties of chili I sampled were really good. The last guy said, "Mine is the hottest." He was right. There was already a lingering tang in the back of my throat. His concoction caused a slow burn, all the way down. Food? Bring it on!
I was one of the last ones out; some drool and negotiation times had been in effect.

HR

I can confirm that HR is shorter and skinnier than I am. And that's good for his health. I'm jealous that he can eat what he wants without putting on weight. And that's good. There are some awfully good places to eat around where he lives.

 

[RJM62]

How would paleolithic humans have gotten a high fat diet? My impression is that the meat available for them to eat would have been much leaner than what is typically available at supermarkets.

He probably would have gotten some exercise chasing it down and killing it, too.

The Paleo Diet makes a great deal of sense to me in that it avoids overly-processed foods, which I'm coming to believe are the single worst way we poison ourselves. Tune it up with a bit of the science we've acquired about human nutrition since the paleolithic age, and I think you have a good plan.

-Rich

 

[DFH65]

How would paleolithic humans have gotten a high fat diet? My impression is that the meat available for them to eat would have been much leaner than what is typically available at supermarkets.

Low-carb does not have to be high fat even with what is available in the market. We eat a lot of venison (I realize this is not readily available to everyone), chicken, turkey even most of the pork you get these days is pretty lean. Now that pepperoni and bacon I eat on occasion is probably gone be what gets me.

As a matter of fact there is a venison roast in the slow cooker for tonight. Mouth is watering just thinking about it.

 

[dtuuri]

How would paleolithic humans have gotten a high fat diet? My impression is that the meat available for them to eat would have been much leaner than what is typically available at supermarkets.

That was somebody else's comment on Mark's Apple Daily website.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

If you're writing all this to influence Dr. Bruce, I don't think we know if he is even reading this board anymore.

bbchien

Final Approach

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Last Activity: January 1st, 2014 06:28 PM

I was hoping he might be peeking.

"Influence?" It's more like trying to illuminate the reason why typical vegetarians and vegans shouldn't be lumped together with Esselstyn-style vegans.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

What does guilt have to do with it?

I can't think of a more charitable reason meat-eaters would try to discredit the documented success of the Esselstyn diet or why they feel compelled to weigh in with their own choices rather than reasonably discuss, like Azure, the science. Why else do they bully in and shout down what a vegetarian professor says to a group of vegetarian students in a video about how they can improve their diets with just one or two changes?

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

Now to wrap my unairworthy heart in a down-filled ski jacket, at the age of 66, and get back out in the below-zero weather for the umpteenth time and shovel the drive again--by hand!

There, done! How's that Dr. Tilton? Isn't this heart good enough for at least a second class medical?

​

dtuuri

 

[Henning]

I can't think of a more charitable reason meat-eaters would try to discredit the documented success of the Esselstyn diet or why they feel compelled to weigh in with their own choices rather than reasonably discuss, like Azure, the science. Why else do they bully in and shout down what a vegetarian professor says to a group of vegetarian students in a video about how they can improve their diets with just one or two changes?

dtuuri

What does that have to do with guilt? I'm not getting it. I don't feel guilty for eating meat, even a vegan eats meat second hand. Everything dies and goes to earth. Humans are the only beings that take themselves out of the natural cycle by entombing themselves.

 

[azure]

The Med group was told to throw it out.

Microwave popcorn? Bread from the supermarket has added soybean oil. I get a lot from the omega-3 rich flax seed in the same spoonful.

dtuuri

Exactly, they're getting it from somewhere, and so are you. Throwing out the oil only means you're not using it in your own cooking, but you're still getting it unless you cook everything you eat from scratch.

I just don't see the evidence that the stuff is so bad for you that you need to cut it out entirely. And if Esselstyn's diet proves better than the Med diet at preventing CAD, there could still be other factors equally or more important.

Still just thinking out loud though... I haven't yet checked those references.

 

[azure]

I might have to go through another angiogram to satisfy the FAA, something I cannot afford and something insurance may not cover, since I'm now just the picture of health! It would help if the FAA conceded that lifestyle changes, if done well enough, can toughen the caps over the stenoses they are fearful of. Dr. Esselstyn has made the claim that after just three weeks on his diet, "You're heart attack proof." I Believe that! Considering the tests I've put my heart through, including almost 13 minutes on the Bruce Protocol stress test six months after my stent, such as sprinting up hills on my daily walks through the woods with my dog--if there's a plaque ready to rupture it would have done so long ago.

It sounds like you should be a slam dunk for the CAD SI then -- unless I've missed something. 90 days down (I think you said you didn't have a MI), >9 minutes + 0.9(220 - age) on the Bruce protocol... what more does the FAA say you need?

 

[dtuuri]

Exactly, they're getting it from somewhere, and so are you. Throwing out the oil only means you're not using it in your own cooking, but you're still getting it unless you cook everything you eat from scratch.

I just don't see the evidence that the stuff is so bad for you that you need to cut it out entirely. And if Esselstyn's diet proves better than the Med diet at preventing CAD, there could still be other factors equally or more important.

Still just thinking out loud though... I haven't yet checked those references.

Hunt for the part where the prof. says the omega-6s taken in huge quantities overwhelm the enzyme that usually prefers to make EPA and DHA from omega-3s. One hundred years ago Wesson invented a way to industrialize cooking oils and since then we've been eating far more than the body needs, which historically resulted in a 2:1 or 1:1 ratio. The only difference in the study was Med dieters had a 4:1 omega-6 to omega-3 ratio, but the AHA group (normal diet) was 20:1. Other than that--no significant differences in what they ate.

Just because you throw away omega-6 containing oils doesn't mean you wont get enough in other foods, it means you won't get too much to overwhelm the enzyme that produces EPA & DHA--"the magical substance".

dtuuri

 

[ClimbnSink]

Wait we were supposed to listen to that hippy for an hour just to learn not to use Wesson oil? Do they even still make that junk? Butter where it's at.

 

[dtuuri]

It sounds like you should be a slam dunk for the CAD SI then -- unless I've missed something. 90 days down (I think you said you didn't have a MI), >9 minutes + 0.9(220 - age) on the Bruce protocol... what more does the FAA say you need?

Nope. The FAA has drawn unpublished lines in the sand for the severity of stenoses, based on old military data which in turn is based on standard chow-hall dieting which is the same typical Western diet civilians eat. So, if you are above that line and still keep eating the same ingredient that caused you to be there in the first place, the stenosis will keep growing, will fill with liquidy material and may rupture. Or not. Newer stenoses with about half the FAA's limit are the most prone to rupture suddenly and they're the kind FAA blissfully stamps "approved" every day. Sheer willful ignorance. My stent only treated the culprit lesion. Further down the same artery is a medically treated stenosis not a candidate for stent placement. Nevermind that I did 14 METS on the stress test. Nevermind that I achieved 105% of my maximum heart rate. Nevermind that I have no angina, that my cardiologist thinks I should be allowed to fly or that the perfusion study shows no sign of ischemia, EDIT: or that I don't eat anymore the very things Dr. Esselstyn has proven causes stenoses to progress. The FAA has their rules, by God, and nothing can change their minds! Except us--if we wise up and put on some pressure.

dtuuri

 

[azure]

No, I remember that part quite well and I think we agree then.

I was under the impression you were saying that something in the control group diet was so bad for you that you had to eliminate it altogether. Omega-6's aren't a killer oil, they're something our bodies need, but not in the quantities people have gotten accustomed to in the post-Wesson era.

(And as you say, the talk also says that you really have to take in a lot of omega-6 to overwhelm the enzyme's natural preference for omega-3.)

I'm not sure where my balance is between the two as checking those levels isn't part of the standard lipid panel, which is all my insurance will pay for. What I do know is that most of my added fat intake is in the mono-unsaturated form since I use olive oil and PAM (which is canola oil based) exclusively. I don't use corn or cottonseed oil and I probably have a pretty high omega-3 intake from all the fish I eat. I limit dairy and anything with a high saturated fat content. What I can't account for is how much omega-6 is in supermarket and restaurant foods -- could still be a lot. I've started to think about adding ground flax seed to my cereal with soy milk in the morning, though that would only make sense if I eliminated another source of fat such as fish, and I don't have a strong enough reason to do that at this point.

 

[azure]

Okay, but it sounds like the remaining lesion falls under the "CAD that has been symptomatic or required treatment" clause (paraphrased, and with emphasis on the "or"), which Bruce has gotten a lot of people SI's for, if I remember what he's written.

I can understand not wanting to roll the dice on the denial catch-22 if you're not sure, but the other side of it is that you're waiting for the FAA to be reasonable, and that probably won't happen in the lifetimes of anyone posting on this forum. Even if it does, by then you might be diagnosed with something else that's really completely disqualifying. In the meantime, you could be flying. FWIW if I were in your shoes I'd probably get together with Bruce, or someone in his league, and see if he could get approval over the phone for my SI before I applied. (Maybe you've done that already though, and he's said that it's iffy.)

 

[dtuuri]

I was under the impression you were saying that something in the control group diet was so bad for you that you had to eliminate it altogether. Omega-6's aren't a killer oil, they're something our bodies need, but not in the quantities people have gotten accustomed to in the post-Wesson era.

I am saying that. You should throw out and not eat omega-6 oils if you want to achieve the same results as the Mediterranean dieters. That doesn't mean you won't get enough omega-6 fatty acids in other foods, just that you won't get too much. I'm also saying Dr. Esselstyn's diet plan is proven to do far, far better by throwing out ALL oils, monounsaturated, polyunsaturated and saturated. When his patients did that, CAD progression ceased. Reversed, even, in most. His diet isn't a zero fat diet--there's fat in veggies too--it's simply a really low-fat diet of about 10%.

FWIW if I were in your shoes I'd probably get together with Bruce, or someone in his league, and see if he could get approval over the phone for my SI before I applied. (Maybe you've done that already though, and he's said that it's iffy.)

BTDT. It's too iffy.

dtuuri

 

[Palmpilot]

I can't think of a more charitable reason meat-eaters would try to discredit the documented success of the Esselstyn diet or why they feel compelled to weigh in with their own choices rather than reasonably discuss, like Azure, the science. Why else do they bully in and shout down what a vegetarian professor says to a group of vegetarian students in a video about how they can improve their diets with just one or two changes?

dtuuri

I don't have much faith in my mind-reading skills, and I don't have much faith in yours, either.

 

[azure]

on which he commented in the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/26/h...-disease-study-finds.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 .

I think his comment that the Med diet "created heart disease in those that didn't have it" is a non-sequitur. The subset of the study group that hadn't been diagnosed with it probably had the silent form of the disease already. One can argue that they would probably have had their "event" sooner or later no matter what diet they had been on.

To see a preview of his upcoming expanded study, which he does compare to the Lyon Diet Study, see the minutes immediately before :58 here (same one I pointed Henning to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6pLRdawBw0&feature=player_embedded#t=3461

Okay. But his stats for the Lyon study make no sense to me. Is he actually saying that 25% of the study group had a major cardiac event? 288/7447 = 3.9% by my math. (That's for the entire study group including the controls; I didn't read the full article to get the N for the subgroups, but assume that since the odds are reportedly better for the Med subgroup, they had to be < 3.9%.)

What makes me a little suspicious of Esselstyn is statements like "3 weeks on my diet makes you heart attack proof". I don't believe that ANYONE is heart attack proof. Even if his diet completely prevents plaque rupture (which I'm not yet convinced of), there are other routes to infarction, like coronary artery spasm, that can occur in the complete absence of obstructive disease.

I am saying that. You should throw out and not eat omega-6 oils if you want to achieve the same results as the Mediterranean dieters. That doesn't mean you won't get enough omega-6 fatty acids in other foods, just that you won't get too much.

And that's the confusing part. I agree that you shouldn't use those oils, especially since there are others that are better for you that work just as well. But if omega-6 is THAT bad for you, then you should be trying to cut out ALL sources that have more than trace amounts, and no one is saying that, except maybe you (and Esselstyn).

 

[Palmpilot]

How do you tell which oils are high in Omega-6? It doesn't seem to be on the label.

 

[Geico266]

What does that have to do with guilt? I'm not getting it. I don't feel guilty for eating meat, even a vegan eats meat second hand. Everything dies and goes to earth. Humans are the only beings that take themselves out of the natural cycle by entombing themselves.

Not this human. I want my ashes buried at sea. No urn, no tarp, nothing but my ashes and the ocean. In 5,000 years I will cover 3/4's of the earth. . I even have a one way ticket on a US Navy destroyer.

 

[bnt83]

Not this human. I want my ashes buried at sea. No urn, no tarp, nothing but my ashes and the ocean. In 5,000 years I will cover 3/4's of the earth.

In Los Angeles area all they would have to do is flush them down the toilet.

That being said they still dump like 1.5 million pounds per month of sludge waste into Santa Monica bay, down from 25 million pounds per month they discharged for 30ish years.

 

[Everskyward]

I can't think of a more charitable reason meat-eaters would try to discredit the documented success of the Esselstyn diet or why they feel compelled to weigh in with their own choices rather than reasonably discuss, like Azure, the science. Why else do they bully in and shout down what a vegetarian professor says to a group of vegetarian students in a video about how they can improve their diets with just one or two changes?

I doubt the meat-eaters (at least the hard core ones) want to be lectured about their diet any more than the vegans want to be lectured by the meat eaters. Everyone should eat what they want and not worry so much about how others eat. It's like those threads on tailwheels... and RVs.

Good luck on the medical. Hope it works out for you.

 

[dtuuri]

Is he actually saying that 25% of the study group had a major cardiac event? 288/7447 = 3.9% by my math.

I have read his book and watched many of his free videos. I had some questions too I needed to resolve in my mind, so I used the contact form on his website to ask. He called me back personally--on two separate occasions! Try that with your typical best selling author. I'd rather he resolve these things to your satisfaction not have me try. My take on the comparison is his diet resulted in one-fortieth the rate of recurrent cardiac "events" as the acclaimed Lyon Diet study (Mediterranean). An "event", AFAIK, is basically something that sends you to a doctor for treatment, i.e., heart attack, stroke, maybe worsening angina.

dtuuri

 

[Palmpilot]

I doubt the meat-eaters (at least the hard core ones) want to be lectured about their diet any more than the vegans want to be lectured by the meat eaters. Everyone should eat what they want and not worry so much about how others eat. It's like those threads on tailwheels... and RVs.

We think alike.

 

[Henning]

Not this human. I want my ashes buried at sea. No urn, no tarp, nothing but my ashes and the ocean. In 5,000 years I will cover 3/4's of the earth. . I even have a one way ticket on a US Navy destroyer.

Why ash? Why not a normal, unembalmed burial at sea? Feed the fish, go into a few lobster pots and provide your friends one last feast.

 

[DFH65]

Like the old saying goes how can you tell someone is a vegetarian (or a pilot)?

Don't worry they will let you know.

Henning, I am with you I don't know why we don't just bury people in the ground. Instead we pump them full of chemicals and put them in a cement vault and then put them in the ground. Makes zero sense.

 

[dtuuri]

I doubt the meat-eaters (at least the hard core ones) want to be lectured about their diet any more than the vegans want to be lectured by the meat eaters.

I can tell who spouted off before watching the video. The lecture in the video was more like a football coach, with the score tied at halftime, lecturing his plant-based team for penalty mistakes the meat-eater team isn't making. He's telling them, "If only they do as well as the meat eaters in that department they should win the game." Nothing in that video should have offended a meat eater, in fact it might give them a reason to feel smug.

I'm certainly not lecturing them either, since my purpose is to separate no-oil vegans from the vegetarian catch-all as a way of explaining why they can stop or reverse heart disease, an idea Dr. Bruce is on record as doubting.

Good luck on the medical. Hope it works out for you.

Thanks.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

Why ash? Why not a normal, unembalmed burial at sea?

Maybe he figures he'll have a better chance of bumping into Neil Armstrong that way?

dtuuri

 

[Fearless Tower]

Henning, I am with you I don't know why we don't just bury people in the ground. Instead we pump them full of chemicals and put them in a cement vault and then put them in the ground. Makes zero sense.

I believe it has more to do with preserving the body long enough that folks can gather for the funeral. After a few days, fish, houseguests and dead bodies tend to stink.

 

[dtuuri]

I don't have much faith in my mind-reading skills, and I don't have much faith in yours, either.

There's an old saying about the guilty dog yapping first and then there's an old Bill Cosby stand up routine you might remember. Seems some nitwit in Bill's shop class put a bullet in the furnace and when it went off the teacher gathered the class together and began berating the parents of whoever could put a bullet in a furnace. Finally, the guilty one stood up and said, "I didn't put the bullet in the furnace, now stop talking about my mother that way!"

So, you see, it doesn't require mind-reading.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

How do you tell which oils are high in Omega-6? It doesn't seem to be on the label.

Google is your friend. The big hitters were in the video.

EDIT: Although I'm not a "Twitter-head" or on Facebook, I see that Dr. Esselstyn posted a Tweet six hours ago with a four minute Youtube video on oil:

https://twitter.com/DrEsselstyn​

EDIT #2: I noticed Jeff Novick's presentation on olive oil in the sidebar. It's quite humorous, but gosh I hope it doesn't offend the oil-eaters.

dtuuri

 

[Geico266]

Why ash? Why not a normal, unembalmed burial at sea? Feed the fish, go into a few lobster pots and provide your friends one last feast.

The problem is no one will do that? Dont they want to wrap the body in plaster of Paris or some other fiberglass covering? I guess that might be wrong because nothing is sea proof. Hmmmmm. You might have something there.

Nope. Fish and lobsters ain't gonna eat ashes. I don't want to end up as fish and lobster ****.

 

[Palmpilot]

There's an old saying about the guilty dog yapping first and then there's an old Bill Cosby stand up routine you might remember. Seems some nitwit in Bill's shop class put a bullet in the furnace and when it went off the teacher gathered the class together and began berating the parents of whoever could put a bullet in a furnace. Finally, the guilty one stood up and said, "I didn't put the bullet in the furnace, now stop talking about my mother that way!"

So, you see, it doesn't require mind-reading.

dtuuri

If the above is representative of the way you reach conclusions, then I don't have much faith in your conclusions.

 

[pilot_dude]

I once heard it said that "beef is brain food, just talk to a vegetarian".

 

[dtuuri]

If the above is representative of the way you reach conclusions, then I don't have much faith in your conclusions.

I conclude you shouldn't post stuff on the internet while at work.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

I once heard it said that "beef is brain food, just talk to a vegetarian".

That's a pretty lamb joke.

dtuuri

 

[Henning]

The problem is no one will do that? Dont they want to wrap the body in plaster of Paris or some other fiberglass covering? I guess that might be wrong because nothing is sea proof. Hmmmmm. You might have something there.

Nope. Fish and lobsters ain't gonna eat ashes. I don't want to end up as fish and lobster ****.

Nope, 20 miles out and you're good to dump as is. Fish (especially bottom feeders), lobsters and crabs eat anything, baleen whales sift huge gulps of seawater through their baleen plates. You'll be dead, you won't notice a thing.

 

[Becky]

Nope, 20 miles out and you're good to dump as is. Fish (especially bottom feeders), lobsters and crabs eat anything, baleen whales sift huge gulps of seawater through their baleen plates. You'll be dead, you won't notice a thing.

That doesn't address the second part of his statement.