Transponder Reco? (have RT-359A) NexGen?

[JohnSBA]

My 1983 C-172 has a RT-359A Transponder that's been acting funky lately. My panel includes an early model non-WAAS 430 and a Michel's for COMM2. I'd like to upgrade, but with limited cash and unlimited time (I love retirement!) I'd rather fly than buy. I'm pondering whether to try for repair, swap with a 90-day warranty unit from Aircraft Spruce or AirWich, update to a digital plug-in (the only one I've found is the Narco AT165/c, or upgrade to something that might be compatible (for yet more $$$) with the FAA's NexGen in a year or two (Garmin?).

Anyone else pondering this dilemma or have recent experience? Feedback on brand/model reliability? Experience with good/bad repair facilities or "used swap" companies?

What I've found online thus far seems to argue against Narco, and anything like my RT-359A that's not solid state. At the same time, it irks me to shell out $800 to several grand for a transponder when reliability and near-term compatibility are in question.

All responses are welcome.

 

[JohnSBA]

Thundering silence here, but googling around and asking elsewhere I clarified things and then called a couple of local avionix shops. Current plan is to get a Garmin 320A. Though they've just been discontinued, many are still available and I might get lucky on a clearance deal or refurb. They'll be serviced by SEA, which seems to have a good rep. The fancier 327 is only slightly more now, but I like the 320 simplicity of no display and the easy-in-turbulence dials vs. 327 fiddly little buttons. Obsolete whenever nexGen is forced, but hopefully Moore's Law will help with price and features by then and the 320A's good reliability rep means it will still be working then.

 

[d.grimm]

I'm looking at a 320A also, any smoking good deals? (other than E-Junk)
Dave

 

[JohnSBA]

I asked on another type list and several people reported no problems with the Narco AT165, so if there isn't a 320A easily available at or below list I might reconsider going that route. I just like the clean and simple panel design on the 320 a lot better. Let's keep each other posted here, on what we find.

 

[weilke]

or upgrade to something that might be compatible (for yet more $$$) with the FAA's NexGen in a year or two (Garmin?).

Do you have to ?

So far, all the ADS-B solutions are expensive and/or dont offer any of the goodies it is supposed to provide. I would wait on this a bit longer, at some point integrated transponder/UAT units will come around that dont cost your firstborn. Replace your current tx with a quality overhauled exchange or the cheapest solid-state garmin you can find.

 

[SCCutler]

1. I have heard nothing but good about Narco's current production digital transponders, notwithstanding the antipathy towards Narco which is expressed by some;

2. If I had a choice of the 320 or 327 from Garmin, and they were reasonably close in cost, I'd go for the 327; I like having the extra functions, like timers and auto-on/off (tied to your 430). I have a 327, like it.

 

[d.grimm]

My reason for the Garmin 320a is a little different.
Looking for lowest current draw as I am going to be battery powered.
Also going with a old Trans-Cal encoder that doesn't have a internal
heater. Overhauled @ $1400.00 so far.
Dave

 

[nyoung]

This summer, I upgraded my ~30 years old narco AT50A to the pin-compatible AT165R/VS. As advertised, install took only a few minutes, and in the months since, the transponder has performed flawlessly.

I would do it again in a heartbeat, and would recommend that you look into their AT165C or AT165C/VS models. It makes install a breeze, which can be a substantial portion of the cost of any avionics upgrade.

 

[JohnSBA]

1. I have heard nothing but good about Narco's

I'm getting the same positive AT165 owner feedback elsewhere. Two problems for me: 1) It looks like pretty outdated design, and probably more prone to problems in 3-5 years when I need ten. 2) Repair feedback on Narco has been almost universally dismal, and my sense is the company might not survive ten years while Garmin does seem to be getting stronger and has a good repair reputation. An extra plus is that the Garmin name might have slightly more resale value if we trade this plane up or get a partner in coming years.

I like having the extra functions... I have a 327, like it

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. It could be nice to have the extra features, yet I'm very drawn to simplicity and lack of display so if the 320 weren't discontinued it would be an easy choice for me. As it is, your reco could be very helpful if it turns out to be the same or less for a Garmin-supported 327.

 

[GMascelli]

Thinking about the transponder issue too. My Collins TDR-950 went belly up yesterday on the way home. I'll be interested to follow the reponses. I like the garmin 320 and that would take care of my traffic issue with the collins/Zaon problems at the same time.

 

[JohnSBA]

Inspired by this thread I've been noodling around the web looking at transponders again, and wanted to share that the A/CS site's "Transponder Selector" is somewhat handy.

Being a VFR pilot, I hadn't thought about the advantage of having another timer in the panel via the 327. I also like that it has individual number buttons for input, so I downloaded the Pilot's Guide on Garmin's site to read about how it actually works. On the other hand, I like the 320's simplicity of one less manual to read and I wonder how the Narco or 327's buttons and panel will look after a thousand hours' use compared with the 320's dials. Something I dislike about the 430 is how many button steps are required to do things, and how quickly I forget the steps to do less frequent tasks - and the 327 seems to have some of this complexity. Looking at the manual, there are some handy features but if not used often they could involve distracting in-flight experiments or digging out and reading the manual rather than flying the airplane.

The 320A doesn't seem to have a Pilot's Guide on the Garmin site, though the detailed specs download has a bit more info. I found some useful info in an old AvWest transponder article though the current crop of 320A units probably differs somewhat from the early one reviewed.

At this point, I'm still leaning toward the 320A. For an IFR pilot or a techie type who loves lots of features, the 327 or Narco could be a better choice. The code display on digital xpdrs are probably also easier to read without glasses, though so far my eyesight is good.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

IIRC, the Garmin 330ES is supposed to be ADS-B compatible.

FWIW, I don't think of the Garmin 320 having any more value on resale than any other 4-dial transponder. The 327 & 330 have the touch entry, auto-on, etc. The 330 adds traffic.

I wouldn't replace any transponder with anything but a 330 these days absent a really good reason to do otherwise. IMHO, it makes no sense to buy something you KNOW is going to have to be replaced in a few years even if it still works fine.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

My 1983 C-172 has a RT-359A Transponder that's been acting funky lately.

The key question is, why is it acting funky? The most common transponder problem is a dirty antenna. I've seen it happen on planes I've rented, the plane I own, and friends' planes. Seriously - causes all kinds of weird intermittent problems. Have you first tried to wipe the grime & grit from the antenna? Even folks who religiously wash the airplane forget to wipe off that little antenna.

I'm sure we'll need to replace our old Cessna transponder someday, but until more of the ADS-B details & consequences get worked out, I'm in no hurry.

Jeff

 

[weilke]

IIRC, the Garmin 330ES is supposed to be ADS-B compatible.

It will be able to provide 'ADS out' service IF you have a 430W or 530W. It wont do any of the 'goodies' like on-board weather.

FWIW, I don't think of the Garmin 320 having any more value on resale than any other 4-dial transponder.

Except that they work.

I wouldn't replace any transponder with anything but a 330 these days absent a really good reason to do otherwise. IMHO, it makes no sense to buy something you KNOW is going to have to be replaced in a few years even if it still works fine.

The ADS-B functionalities will be available in a lot cheaper boxes at the point when it becomes mandatory. The 330 will be just as obsolete at that point as the 4-dial transponders.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The ADS-B functionalities will be available in a lot cheaper boxes at the point when it becomes mandatory. The 330 will be just as obsolete at that point as the 4-dial transponders.

Except that you won't have to replace it RIGHT NOW. When the deadline arrives, the others will be doorstops. The 330 (+430/530) will keep you legal, and if you decide you want the goodies, you can add ADS-B In via a GDL-90 or whatever else is available at that point.

 

[JohnSBA]

Well, this was a very tough decision. I've seriously considered options ranging from trying to repair my ARC R-359A to buying a Garmin GTX 330 to get TIS on our 430. It came down to risks and features vs. enough cash for a big x/c trip (35 - 100 hours of flying). The main risks are a used unit failing in busy Class B far from home or not lasting beyond 30 day warranty.

I got a yellow tag used 359 from San Luis Avionics (Option 2 below) and am hoping it lasts until there are better/cheaper ADSB in/out and TIS options. It worked fine on the short flight from KSBP to KSBA, and ATC seemed to pick us up more quickly than with the 359 this is replacing. Maybe soon there will be non-certified TIS/ADSB-in on a portable, since certified on those doesn't really matter for my mission. Seems like it won't be more than a year or two until there are more ADSB xpdr options, and TIS on the 430 is just more buttons and knobs to mess with and more clutter on that tiny screen. In case it helps anyone else, here's the list of installed prices and factors I came up with for the various options to replace my defunct R-539A:

1. $300-800 - Repair the old R-395. Mike's Avionics in Van Nuys will give a free estimate. The ARC R-359 is less repairable than the similar King cavitron-based units because the 359 uses an older type of logic circuits that are less available, though San Luis Avionics has a supply of them bought from another shop in the past. Techs who repair these older units say that they generally hold up quite well, easily lasting 2000 hours or more. There are several failure modes but the cavitron, that typically fails without warning other than possibly some frequency drift, is $800-1000 and often damages other parts when it fails.

2. $560 - Used R-395 $450 w/30-day warr. incl. $110 installed with paperwork at San Luis Avionics. Pro/Con: +known price and one is available, -unknown performance & reliability, +simple operation, -obsolete cavitron technology, -runs hotter/uses more power than digital, -no VFR/last-code push button or other features, +output tested at 200 watt new xmit power rating.

3. $1680 - Narco AT165cvs plug-in digital replacement $1580 w/1 yr. warr. incl. $110 paperwork & Narco $50 rebate thru 1/31/11. Pro/Con: +250 watt xmit, +adds VFR/last-code button to old style design, -old-looking design style & display, +/-digital display may have better readability but adds a potential failure mode, -several bad Narco repair process reviews, +many good reliability reviews, -setting codes slightly fiddly with multi-step process on single knob. Several different shops told me that they no longer sell or repair Narco due to the factory taking over all repair work, parts, schematics and having a very slow turnaround time on repairs with no set rates and high prices.

4. $2300 - Garmin GTX 320A digital $1660 w/1yr. warr. plus $800 (flat-rate SLO) rewiring & paperwork. Pro/Con: +no instructions required, -discontinued and no longer serviced by Garmin, +identical simple operation to old style units, +no digital display as potential failure mode, +adds VFR/last-code button to old style design, +new panel wiring and rack contacts might improve long-term reliability.

5. $2500 - Garmin GTX 327 digital $1900 w/1yr. warr. plus $800 rewiring & paperwork. Pro/Con: +ADSB out with added connector to 430, +adds VFR/last-code button to old style design, +extra features beyond timers for IFR, -menu structure requires instruction manual, +/-individual buttons could make code input faster than AT165's single knob but be harder to use than single or individual knobs in turbulence, +/-digital display may have better readability but adds a potential failure mode, +new panel wiring and rack contacts might improve long-term reliability.

6. $4100 - Garmin GTX 330 digital $3500 w/1yr. warr. plus $900 rewiring & paperwork, incl. extra wiring & 430 SW update for TIS (430 SW update also gives terrain if buy the card). Pro/Con same as GTX 327 plus: +TIS on 430, +ADSB out, +many extra features well beyond timers for IFR, -extra features make for even more complex menu structure requiring instruction manual, +/-digital display may have better readability but adds a potential failure mode, +new panel wiring and rack contacts might improve long-term reliability.

7. $7600 - Garmin GTX 330 as above plus 430 WAAS $3k 1yr. warr. w/terr. card + $500 inst. (new sat. antenna, etc.). Pro/Con same as GTX 327 plus: -lots of features and complexity on the tiny 430 screen, -handheld or non/cert. units might provide many of the features with less complexity on a larger screen at much lower cost, -new designs before 2020 could combine xpdr w/comm & gps and add ADSB in.

 

[Captain Kev]

Look on avionicslist.com and buy a replacement just like the one you have. Remove the old one and slide in the new one. I install avionics and wouldn't replace good working wiring. You might need to get a new antenna but not likely. Ask to have your current transponder bench checked and you will have your answer. As far as ADS-B goes, get the new L3 Lynx when it is released for under $2000 and your pretty much done.

 

[SPAJC]

Goto www.transponderrepair.com and check out the pricing for repair. I used them for my Narco and received excellent service. Flat rate fee and they will certify it for you if you want or need them to. Cost out the door for me was $170 with repair, alignment (it was mis-coding) as he put it, cleaning of the insides and certification with sticker for my logbook. You pay shipping there and they pay shipping back. I sent it on a monday and had it back certified and ready to go on thursday I believe. Its working great. Again, I received excellent service from them and would highly recommend them for a repair.


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