Transition training, HP, Complex, Multi

bjohnsonmn

bjohnsonmn

Pre-takeoff checklist
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bjohnsonmn
Hello friends on PoA,
I am looking for some guidance here, and I've seen answers ranging all across the board. I'd like to get some idea of what people really think the transition training will take given a recent PPL ASEL recipient. The areas I am most interested in are:

1. High Performance

2. Complex

3. Multi-Engine

My next step will most likely be an Instrument Rating, but I would also like to start to compute the costs for each of these other endorsements. I figure the first two are ones I would like to check off before looking at ASES.

Any help is appreciated!
Now commence the bloviating! :rolleyes:
 
bjohnsonmn said:
Hello friends on PoA,
I am looking for some guidance here, and I've seen answers ranging all across the board. I'd like to get some idea of what people really think the transition training will take given a recent PPL ASEL recipient. The areas I am most interested in are:

1. High Performance

2. Complex

3. Multi-Engine

My next step will most likely be an Instrument Rating, but I would also like to start to compute the costs for each of these other endorsements. I figure the first two are ones I would like to check off before looking at ASES.

Any help is appreciated!
Now commence the bloviating! :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I did my Complex (already had HP) on my IR. I think it was a good idea.

I'm planing on doing the ME much later, like after I have my CFI.
 
ME is a rating on your certificate with a practical test from an examiner. Complex and HP are endorsements in your logbook from an instructor. As for time to each, really too hard to say without knowing your experience, but typically 3-5 hours for the endorsements and 8-15 for the ME rating.
 
The school where I got my private would take folks from a Tampico (TB-9) or a 172 and put them into a Trinidad (TB-20) in about 8 hours, for both the complex and the HP. It took about the same time for a 182RG upgrade.
 
Of the endorsements you listed (MEL is a rating as Ron posted above), I'd say the Complex is more involved (or if you'll be flying a Bonanza or 210, you'll need both). Just a stand alone HP endorsement in something like a 182 is pretty straight foward. A good part of the training will be dedicated to the use of a Constant Speed prop and cowl flaps, other than that, a 182 is really just a slightly heavier 172; however, the complex requires that gear be added to the equation and that takes a little more time to get comfortable with. Learning how to use a controllable pitch propeller is really easy, and you might find that you prefer it to a fixed pitch after the training. I know I do.
 
I'd love to get the Multi-Engine Rating just for kicks; the only reasonably priced twin near me is a Grumman Cougar at $220/hr.
 
I did my HP/Complex as part of my first BFR after my PP...pretty straightforward.
 
Challenged said:
I'd love to get the Multi-Engine Rating just for kicks; the only reasonably priced twin near me is a Grumman Cougar at $220/hr.
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Sheble Aviation in AZ has a 2 day MEL add on. I think it's $2200 plus the checkride (or less if all you want are VFR privileges in a Twin).
 
My complex was 10hrs, but that was an FBO insurance requirement for renting. I could have gotten the endorsement in about half that, but chose to do the whole time just in case I wanted to rent.
 
If you are looking to cut cost, definitely try to do the complex in a HP to knock them both out at once. As for the multi...stay away from the short/cheap 2 day courses UNLESS you will have the opportunity to build a lot of multi experience after you get the rating.
 
What I hear from the experienced and what I see on Youtube, Multi-engine rating is not to be trifled with. For it to be of any value, you have to be on the ball at all times. You have less than a second to kick that rudder, maybe even retard the only remaining throttle immediately against the fear. By comparison, Complex is nothing to mention. Just GUMP it on downwind, base, and final. Everything is pre-planned, you have plenty of time, no rush, no stress. More importantly, if you fly a retract, you train for Complex naturally. But if you fly a twin, you do not train for Multi-engine, so have to be extra vigilant about recurrent training. I decided not to waste money on AMEL, as I have no way to stay sharp enough.
 
Complex/HP... piece of cake. Back before insurance companies cared, I think my Complex was 2 x 1.5 hour flights to transition to a 172RG. HP is just more right rudder and learning how to take care of a bigger engine and mainly, how not to run it beyond book specs and to properly cool it.

Instrument? Ah... If you're me, that'll take the rest of your life. Ha.

Multi... I wouldn't do it unless you have access to a large pile of cash to burn through that'll allow you to keep flying one regularly to stay sharp. They'll kill you deader than dead quickly if you're complacent.

I'd rather get the Commercial and be always flying to the tighter specs expected of a Comm/Inst pilot prior to Multi. Just my opinion.
 
denverpilot said:
Complex/HP... piece of cake. Back before insurance companies cared, I think my Complex was 2 x 1.5 hour flights to transition to a 172RG. HP is just more right rudder and learning how to take care of a bigger engine and mainly, how not to run it beyond book specs and to properly cool it.

Instrument? Ah... If you're me, that'll take the rest of your life. Ha.

Multi... I wouldn't do it unless you have access to a large pile of cash to burn through that'll allow you to keep flying one regularly to stay sharp. They'll kill you deader than dead quickly if you're complacent.

I'd rather get the Commercial and be always flying to the tighter specs expected of a Comm/Inst pilot prior to Multi. Just my opinion.
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There's really no more of a market for MEL training among the recreational flying community. More efficient, high performance singles do the job that light twins used to do and they won't eat a barley current pilots lunch nearly as fast, which makes them cheaper to insure. The only people doing MEL training are those with career asperations. I'd say if you want to add a rating just for the heck of it, do something fun like ASES or Glider...
 
Pretty much ditto what everyone here said about the ME. I got mine when I went to school, and while I'm glad that I have it, it really does me little more right now than allowing me to log time with the local 135 operator at my airport. I would think that most FBOs wouldn't be allowed to rent you a twin on your own with less than 100 hours in type. Light twins are prohibitively costly to insure!! Want proof? Look at at Trade-a-Plane and look at the cost difference between a Baron and A36 Bonanza. On average, Barons are being dumped for about half of what the A36s are. The same can be said of almost all other light twins.
 
high perf: getting used to somewhat faster speeds. After awhile flying a certain airplane it will seem slow anyways. no biggie
complex: two extra knobs and cowl flaps, again no biggie
multi: you get complex and if the engines are rated more than 200 hp then highperf.

After Instrument Rating. I would skip high perf and complex and just go and learn on the multi how to fly faster and pull more knobs and levers.
 
Well the big problem is people don't tend to divorce "getting the endorsement" with "being proficient in whatever type you're getting your endorsement in."

A NA arrow shouldn't take much more than a couple of hours for a cherokee pilot.
Learning to fly the Navion isn't so much "in the air" time but learning how the systems work (whether you have an HP/COMPLEX endorsement previously or not).
 
denverpilot said:
Complex/HP... piece of cake. Back before insurance companies cared, I think my Complex was 2 x 1.5 hour flights to transition to a 172RG. HP is just more right rudder and learning how to take care of a bigger engine and mainly, how not to run it beyond book specs and to properly cool it.

Instrument? Ah... If you're me, that'll take the rest of your life. Ha.

Multi... I wouldn't do it unless you have access to a large pile of cash to burn through that'll allow you to keep flying one regularly to stay sharp. They'll kill you deader than dead quickly if you're complacent.

I'd rather get the Commercial and be always flying to the tighter specs expected of a Comm/Inst pilot prior to Multi. Just my opinion.
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I expected that kind of answer, and don't worry, you will grab that IR... and your POA family will rejoice with you..
 
WOW! a guy forgets a thread for a week or so and BOOM, all kinds of helpful insight pops up.

I apreciate all of the feedback. I am going to knock out the IR starting as soon as I pass the IR written (was that the sound of a bunch of people rolling their eyes, remembering the IR Written?)

I may try to get the HP in while I am training, and perhaps even go for the ASES shortly after. A new friend has a 182 he puts on floats in the summer, so perhaps he would find it useful to have someone to help him out? (A guy can hope, right?)

So, Here's the plan:
1. IR (Started the ground school videos, will be looking for written test prep advice)
2. HP - either before the IR is done, or shortly after.
3. Complex
4. ASES - 'cause I live in the land of 10,000 lakes gosh darn it.

Best Regards All!!
Brad
 
bjohnsonmn said:
WOW! a guy forgets a thread for a week or so and BOOM, all kinds of helpful insight pops up.

I apreciate all of the feedback. I am going to knock out the IR starting as soon as I pass the IR written (was that the sound of a bunch of people rolling their eyes, remembering the IR Written?)

I may try to get the HP in while I am training, and perhaps even go for the ASES shortly after. A new friend has a 182 he puts on floats in the summer, so perhaps he would find it useful to have someone to help him out? (A guy can hope, right?)

So, Here's the plan:
1. IR (Started the ground school videos, will be looking for written test prep advice)
2. HP - either before the IR is done, or shortly after.
3. Complex
4. ASES - 'cause I live in the land of 10,000 lakes gosh darn it.

Best Regards All!!
Brad
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good plan. The sooner you get an IR the better as long as you continue to use/train for it. OTOH, I wouldn't recommend going through the IR grind just to "put the ticket in your pocket". IR skills are the most volatile capability you will ever learn. If you don't use it (for real and/or in recurrent training) you will lose it in short order and the words "instrument airplane" on your plastic Wright Bros card will be nothing more than a false impression that you could deal with weather if you accidentally got into it someday.

HP and Complex endorsements are just challenging enough to be fun without stressing you out (it's pretty much guaranteed that you will see significant stress chasing the IR but it's worth it).

ASES is slightly more difficult but WAY more fun so I strongly recommend you keep that one on the short list even if you never get to fly floats again (you pretty much have to own one to fly one solo).

As to the Multi, there's only one reason to get that prior to an IR and at least a few hundred hours of XC time and that's if you are likely to be flying "copilot" in a twin (e.g. have a friend with one that you often go with on trips) and you are likely to benefit from AMEL PIC time in your logs. If you get the AMEL before your IR you will have to take another checkride to gain IR privileges in a twin and you aren't likely to find anyone who will rent a twin to you without the IR and a fair amount of twin time.

A commercial rating isn't too hard (easier than AMEL, and way easier than IR, but not as simple as HP and Complex endorsements) and a fair amount of fun but it's also pretty useless to most recreational pilots. I've been commercially rated in singles, twins and floatplanes for several years yet I've never been paid to fly.

Two other endeavors I highly recommend are the TW endorsement and a glider rating. Neither is expensive and both will teach you more about flying (or landing in the TW case) than you probably already know.

BTW, by any chance is Pete Strommen the 182 floatplane owner you know? If so you're in for a treat, he has one of the nicest 182s on floats I've seen. Also are you contemplating any of this training at Inflight?
 
zaitcev said:
What I hear from the experienced and what I see on Youtube, Multi-engine rating is not to be trifled with. For it to be of any value, you have to be on the ball at all times. You have less than a second to kick that rudder, maybe even retard the only remaining throttle immediately against the fear. By comparison, Complex is nothing to mention. Just GUMP it on downwind, base, and final. Everything is pre-planned, you have plenty of time, no rush, no stress. More importantly, if you fly a retract, you train for Complex naturally. But if you fly a twin, you do not train for Multi-engine, so have to be extra vigilant about recurrent training. I decided not to waste money on AMEL, as I have no way to stay sharp enough.
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Losing an engine is not like a snap roll....don't know where you got that "less than a second" idea. There is a prescribed procedure for dealing with a failed engine, and rushing through it may lead to a fatal mistake. My mantra as a MEI was "Don't just do something, sit there!". Pushing on the hard pedal is the first step.

Bob Gardner
 
HP and complex needn't take more than 1.5 hrs each - just have to find an FBO that isn't anal. Some people make it out to be way more complicated than it needs to be.
 
I got my HP/Complex endorsement at nighttime in a Debonair as a student pilot. 3.8 hours, but the worlds greatest pilot was my instructor so it was easy.
 
gismo said:
If you get the AMEL before your IR you will have to take another checkride to gain IR privileges in a twin and you aren't likely to find anyone who will rent a twin to you without the IR and a fair amount of twin time.
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There is another way, although it costs more it leaves you with much more multi time if that's important to you. Get your multi first. Then get your IR in a multi. Then get your commercial in a multi as well.

All said you'll end up with a ton more multi hours. Also, if you get your IR in a multi you don't need to take another checkride to exercise your IR in a single. It doesn't work the other way around...you get your IR in a single then you have to take another checkride in a multi to fly IFR in a ME.

That's the way I did it, however the cost of ME airplanes was MUCH less than it is now. If cost is an issue and two IR checkrides doesn't bother you then a more traditional route is your answer (ASEL, SE IR, ME, SE COM, ME COM, (CFI(s) if you choose.))
 
gismo said:
Sounds like a good plan. The sooner you get an IR the better as long as you continue to use/train for it. OTOH, I wouldn't recommend going through the IR grind just to "put the ticket in your pocket". IR skills are the most volatile capability you will ever learn. If you don't use it (for real and/or in recurrent training) you will lose it in short order and the words "instrument airplane" on your plastic Wright Bros card will be nothing more than a false impression that you could deal with weather if you accidentally got into it someday.

HP and Complex endorsements are just challenging enough to be fun without stressing you out (it's pretty much guaranteed that you will see significant stress chasing the IR but it's worth it).

ASES is slightly more difficult but WAY more fun so I strongly recommend you keep that one on the short list even if you never get to fly floats again (you pretty much have to own one to fly one solo).

As to the Multi, there's only one reason to get that prior to an IR and at least a few hundred hours of XC time and that's if you are likely to be flying "copilot" in a twin (e.g. have a friend with one that you often go with on trips) and you are likely to benefit from AMEL PIC time in your logs. If you get the AMEL before your IR you will have to take another checkride to gain IR privileges in a twin and you aren't likely to find anyone who will rent a twin to you without the IR and a fair amount of twin time.

A commercial rating isn't too hard (easier than AMEL, and way easier than IR, but not as simple as HP and Complex endorsements) and a fair amount of fun but it's also pretty useless to most recreational pilots. I've been commercially rated in singles, twins and floatplanes for several years yet I've never been paid to fly.

Two other endeavors I highly recommend are the TW endorsement and a glider rating. Neither is expensive and both will teach you more about flying (or landing in the TW case) than you probably already know.

BTW, by any chance is Pete Strommen the 182 floatplane owner you know? If so you're in for a treat, he has one of the nicest 182s on floats I've seen. Also are you contemplating any of this training at Inflight?
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Thanks for the comments and good opinions. (Opinions and pilots, are well, let's just say I wanted to indicate that I like yours!)

As for who's 182, Can't say...

But, I do train exclusively at inFlight. Those guys are great. Josiah over there was my PPL instructor, and now a friend. It's like I told someone, they aren't puppy mill, if puppies were pilots hoping to jump to the airlines. They do a great job with each pilot.

I am going to do my IR with Trevor, and he has told that I have to pass my written before flight training (knowing how long it took me to get my ppl written done, it's for my own good).

Are you a regular on Saturday mornings?
 
bjohnsonmn said:
Are you a regular on Saturday mornings?
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Yeah, when I'm in town. Look for a guy with white hair that talks too much. Ben and Trevor know who I am (great CFIs BTW). And you might be interested to know that I'm working on a plan to place a BATD (inexpensive flight simulator that can be used for some of the IR training) at inflight in the next month or so.
 
gismo said:
Yeah, when I'm in town. Look for a guy with white hair that talks too much. Ben and Trevor know who I am (great CFIs BTW). And you might be interested to know that I'm working on a plan to place a BATD (inexpensive flight simulator that can be used for some of the IR training) at inflight in the next month or so.
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MSPAviator said:
I'm a regular on Saturday mornings as well. Got my TW endorsement @ Inflight with Josiah.
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I'll look for you both. I was the guy with the "Era" hat this winter.

Happy to hear about the BATD as I am just starting the IR training.

Preflight this weekend... I will be interested to see Ben's spin on preflight.
 
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