Transition Bravo in SFRA, COMM Question?

[MDeitch1976]

If a pilot is Departing GAI, VFR to 33N as an example. When your off Gaithersburg, you contact Potomac Approach. When requesting to transition Baltimore Bravo airspace, and flight following is desired as well, what would be the sequence of COMM requests to ATC? Ask for flight following first, or request Bravo transition first and ask for flight following when departing Baltimore Bravo? While I am on this topic, if returning to Gaithersburg via Baltimore Bravo, how is altitude handled when returning to Gaithersburg?

 

[poadeleted20]

You would go through the normal DC SFRA filing, but when you call Potomac on 121.6 to get your squawk code before takeoff, tell them exactly what you want -- VFR departure to the northeast with flight following through the B-space at whatever altitude you want. They'll tell you what to do after that.

That said, while you should be able to get flight following outside the B-space, the odds are strongly against getting through the B-space VFR in this situation -- Potomac just doesn't do that due to BWI arrivals and/or departures. Expect to be told either to stay below the Bravo or to go straight to Westiminster VOR (EMI) before turning east or southeast towards Dover (depending on whether you intend to go over Martin State Airport and south of R-4001, or go over Havre de Grace north of R-4001 then turn southeast).

On return, the same applies -- expect to be told to stay out of the Bravo. That means either heading west out of Dover towards Martin State staying below the B-space at 2000-2499 and arcing around north of the big TV towers under the 1500-foot shelf (into which they stick), or heading northwest towards Havre de Grace and staying north of R-4001, than either going direct GAI underneath the Bravo or heading towards EMI at higher altitude before descending to GAI.

Mind the narrow runway at 33N, and the wires on the east end of the field while landing on 27. Also, be careful crossing the runway while taxiing out to 27 -- the markings are a bit tricky.

 

[flyingron]

You should at least ask AGAIN once you are in the air. PCT (and the old IAD, DCA, and BWI approach controllers before the consolidation) would never give class B clearance to someone they didn't YET have in radar contact. It's not unheard of to get routed through Baltimore either directly over BWI or over TV Hill if you ask nicely.

 

[poadeleted20]

You should at least ask AGAIN once you are in the air. PCT (and the old IAD, DCA, and BWI approach controllers before the consolidation) would never give class B clearance to someone they didn't YET have in radar contact. It's not unheard of to get routed through Baltimore either directly over BWI or over TV Hill if you ask nicely.

...and are high enough, usually over 6000 feet.

 

[Mattl]

...and are high enough, usually over 6000 feet.

Agreed- heading west, I got the B by asking for it once I called up approach to enter the SFRA. I was cruising at 4500 and to get the clearance I had to climb and maintain 6500, otherwise no clearance. Going east I have gotten 2500 through the FRZ/BWI corridor, on the edge of the 2500/1500 B sectors boundary. As far as departing GAI and heading north east, it depends on if traffic is landing on 15R at BWI. If so, don't plan on it. I've found the DC TRACON controllers very helpful and willing to help pilots shortcut and add altitude when requested.

 

[poadeleted20]

Going east I have gotten 2500 through the FRZ/BWI corridor, on the edge of the 2500/1500 B sectors boundary.

Also known as "the Fort Meade Gap." Not much good, though, if you're going to Dover.

 

[Mattl]

Also known as "the Fort Meade Gap." Not much good, though, if you're going to Dover.

Very true- I was headed to AC via ocean city MD. (Px wanted to fly up the coast) and a few times to Salisbury and Cambridge for lunch and dinner.

 

[MDeitch1976]

I am pretty sure after I get my ticket, I am still going to be taking an instructor, or another pilot along in order to get some Bravo and Charlie practice.

 

[poadeleted20]

I am pretty sure after I get my ticket, I am still going to be taking an instructor, or another pilot along in order to get some Bravo and Charlie practice.

Since you were talking about going through the Bravo, I figured you already had the necessary training and endorsement for a Student/Sport Pilot to operate in Class Bravo airspace. If not, you aren't allowed in the Bravo and will have to go under or around it.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Since you were talking about going through the Bravo, I figured you already had the necessary training and endorsement for a Student/Sport Pilot to operate in Class Bravo airspace. If not, you aren't allowed in the Bravo and will have to go under or around it.

Ron, I was speaking hypothetically after I get my ticket. Currently, I have only been NE, and under Baltimore Bravo. At some point after getting my ticket, I want to start heading East. If I had the option to get clearance through Bravo, I would prefer that as opposed to tucking underneath on the FRZ/BWI corridor.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron, I was speaking hypothetically after I get my ticket. Currently, I have only been NE, and under Baltimore Bravo. At some point after getting my ticket, I want to start heading East. If I had the option to get clearance through Bravo, I would prefer that as opposed to tucking underneath on the FRZ/BWI corridor.

As I said, you can always ask, but expect to be told to remain clear of the Bravo and plan accordingly. You can play with that during your Class B endorsement training.

 

[MDeitch1976]

As I said, you can always ask, but expect to be told to remain clear of the Bravo and plan accordingly. You can play with that during your Class B endorsement training.

If they are not going to let me transition, why would they let me train in Bravo? Meaning, am I going to have an issue?

 

[Mattl]

If they are not going to let me transition, why would they let me train in Bravo? Meaning, am I going to have an issue?

No- you can make the transition east/west or west/east under the B shelf, near Ft. Meade ATC can't "control" you outside of the Bravo. (SFRA rules are still obviously in effect) If cleared inside the B you have to remain clear of clouds (VFR) at the alt and heading assigned by ATC, period.

Who isn't going to let you train in Bravo? It does however require an enforcement to accept the clearance in to bravo airspace as a solo student.

 

[poadeleted20]

If they are not going to let me transition, why would they let me train in Bravo? Meaning, am I going to have an issue?

They way you force them to let you train in this Bravo is by flying to/from the Bravo airport, in this case, BWI. But when you get there, make sure you only do a low approach, not a T&G, as the landing fees are steep. Other Bravo ATC facilities aren't as difficult to deal with, so going through Philly, for example, is a lot easier.

 

[poadeleted20]

No- you can make the transition east/west or west/east under the B shelf, near Ft. Meade ATC can't "control" you outside of the Bravo.

He was speaking of eastbound transition from GAI through the B-space north of BWI, and unless you're at/above 6000, they normally don't allow that. The transition you describe works just fine for getting past there, but since it is not actually in the B-space, it doesn't count if you're training for the B-space endorsement.

Who isn't going to let you train in Bravo? It does however require an enforcement to accept the clearance in to bravo airspace as a solo student.

An enforcement is what you get if you don't have the requisite endorsement.

 

[Mattl]

An enforcement is what you get if you don't have the requisite endorsement.

iPhone.... Fat fingers. Thanks!

 

[MDeitch1976]

They way you force them to let you train in this Bravo is by flying to/from the Bravo airport, in this case, BWI. But when you get there, make sure you only do a low approach, not a T&G, as the landing fees are steep. Other Bravo ATC facilities aren't as difficult to deal with, so going through Philly, for example, is a lot easier.

Other than wanting to Transition Bravo Airspace, is there really a need for a Private Pilot to really have experience working on approaches in that airspace?

 

[poadeleted20]

Other than wanting to Transition Bravo Airspace, is there really a need for a Private Pilot to really have experience working on approaches in that airspace?

Not really. But I'm not talking about flying an instrument approach procedure, just asking for clearance into the B-space to BWI, and then telling tower you want a low approach rather than a full stop. The problem is that unless you're going to/from BWI, it's hard to get VFR in that B-space. Just remember to stick in two DC SFRA flight plans -- one in, and one out.

Or if you only want it for after you get your Sport Pilot, you can do the training in any B-space, not just the BaltoWash Tri-Area B-space. Only Student Pilots must have training in that particular B-space to get a B-space endorsement which is then only good in that particular B-space. Compare 61.94 with 61.325 to see what I mean. So, you can do the 61.325 training in Philly's B-space and then as a Sport Pilot fly through BWI's B-space.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Or if you only want it for after you get your Sport Pilot, you can do the training in any B-space, not just the BaltoWash Tri-Area B-space. Only Student Pilots must have training in that particular B-space to get a B-space endorsement which is then only good in that particular B-space. Compare 61.94 with 61.325 to see what I mean. So, you can do the 61.325 training in Philly's B-space and then as a Sport Pilot fly through BWI's B-space.

I have decided not to go the Sport Route. All I need now is 2.4 hours XC, and I will have met all of my Private Pilot hours.
That is why I am having these questions regarding Bravo because no training in Bravo. Only discussion of having a clearance to operate within.

 

[poadeleted20]

I have decided not to go the Sport Route. All I need now is 2.4 hours XC, and I will have met all of my Private Pilot hours.
That is why I am having these questions regarding Bravo because no training in Bravo. Only discussion of having a clearance to operate within.

Gotcha. In that case, as strange as it may seem, when you get your PP, you'll be legal to operate in any Bravo space in the country even if you never got so much as 10 seconds of actual training in one. Getting an instructor to take you through one (doesn't have to be Baltimore's, although that would be nice) would be a wise albeit not legally-required choice, and flying in, landing, and leaving again would be even better.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Gotcha. In that case, as strange as it may seem, when you get your PP, you'll be legal to operate in any Bravo space in the country even if you never got so much as 10 seconds of actual training in one. Getting an instructor to take you through one (doesn't have to be Baltimore's, although that would be nice) would be a wise albeit not legally-required choice, and flying in, landing, and leaving again would be even better.

Do you know the reasoning behind a Sport Pilot Requiring an Endorsement for Bravo, and a PPL to not require one?

 

[poadeleted20]

Do you know the reasoning behind a Sport Pilot Requiring an Endorsement for Bravo, and a PPL to not require one?

PP training requires training and testing on Bravo, at least knowledge and ground training (see 61.105 and the PP PTS). Sport Pilot does not, in order to keep it as simple as possible (see 61.309 and the Sport Pilot PTS). So, you know anyone with a PP has been trained (at least on the ground) on B-space operations, but the only way to know that a Sport Pilot has received this training (which is above and beyond that required to get your Sport Pilot certificate) is to have a logbook endorsement to that effect. And the reason folks don't have to get actual flight training in Class B airspace to get their PP is there are too many folks living too far from any B-space to make that a requirement.

 

[denverpilot]

And the reason folks don't have to get actual flight training in Class B airspace to get their PP is there are too many folks living too far from any B-space to make that a requirement.

I was with ya right up until that. It's not a valid reason unless you stipulate that airplanes never go anywhere.

Most CFI (yourself probably included) still take PP candidates into a Bravo and show them how the first time. And even write it in the comments in the logbook.

Both PP and SP will have something in the logbook usually, it's just arbitrary that one is a true endorsement and the other is "non-required training".

 

[poadeleted20]

I was with ya right up until that. It's not a valid reason unless you stipulate that airplanes never go anywhere.

if it were required, a lot of folks would have to fly several hundred miles each way with an instructor just to fill that square, and the FAA isn't going to require that.

Most CFI (yourself probably included) still take PP candidates into a Bravo and show them how the first time. And even write it in the comments in the logbook.

We do, when it's convenient. If you're 250 miles from the nearest B-space, it's not convenient.

 

[denverpilot]

if it were required, a lot of folks would have to fly several hundred miles each way with an instructor just to fill that square, and the FAA isn't going to require that.

We do, when it's convenient. If you're 250 miles from the nearest B-space, it's not convenient.

Okay, so if a PP learns somewhere far away from a Bravo and their CFI doesn't show them, their "booklearning" can cover it, but a SP that lives right under the shelf, will need an endorsement.

It's still arbitrary and indefensible bereaucratic silliness. However one slices it.

 

[poadeleted20]

Okay, so if a PP learns somewhere far away from a Bravo and their CFI doesn't show them, their "booklearning" can cover it, but a SP that lives right under the shelf, will need an endorsement.

It's still arbitrary and indefensible bereaucratic silliness. However one slices it.

Since there is no requirement for any Sport Pilot to receive any training on Class B procedures (or even using a radio), and there is a requirement that every PP be trained and tested on them, I don't see the FAA's requirement for an endorsement documenting additional training on Class B procedures for Sport Pilots to go in B-space to be either arbitrary, silly, or indefensible.

 

[denverpilot]

Two separate types of training.

Paper training.
In-flight training.

Unless you're saying they're of equal value? I suspect you wouldn't.

Private: Paper required.
Sport: Paper and practical required.

Who's better prepared to enter a Bravo, all things considered?

 

[poadeleted20]

Two separate types of training.

Paper training.
In-flight training.

Unless you're saying they're of equal value? I suspect you wouldn't.

Private: Paper required.
Sport: Paper and practical required.

Who's better prepared to enter a Bravo, all things considered?

Private requires actual flight training in radio-required airspace. Add that to the required knowledge training on B-space, and I'm OK with it -- and there is nothing in the accident or enforcement files to suggest otherwise. Since Sport Pilots may not have even a single flight with a radio in the plane, they require more documentation to show they can do it.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm fine with it, you're fine with it. No argument there.

Technically you didn't answer the question. Who's more prepared, someone who read about it, or someone who's done it?

Now can you prove it scientifically?

Perhaps the folks who write the rules can? With SP, they have the data now. Which sub-group causes more Bravo problems and/or is violated more?

I said the differences were arbitrary, and that's true. If one or the other has consistently turned out a safer result, a non-arbitrary scientific solution would be that FAA would mandate the use of that rule set, not have two.

Arb-i-trary. Say it slowly. Let the meaning of the word sink in.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Private requires actual flight training in radio-required airspace. Add that to the required knowledge training on B-space, and I'm OK with it -- and there is nothing in the accident or enforcement files to suggest otherwise. Since Sport Pilots may not have even a single flight with a radio in the plane, they require more documentation to show they can do it.

Being at an airport underneath the SFRA definitely has helped with COMM. Flying into a couple Delta Airspaces has helped. Not having training with entering Bravo, or Charlie for that matter still leaves a little bit of concern not having done it. It is great I learned on paper, and know what's going on. I still feel like it would be beneficial to actually have some training within that Airspace.

If a sport pilot is allowed to be NORDO, than shouldn't they be required to have an endorsement to use the COMM, not just how to communicate in B,C,D?

I agree with Denver, that the bureaucrats could have done a better job making up the rules.

 

[poadeleted20]

Being at an airport underneath the SFRA definitely has helped with COMM. Flying into a couple Delta Airspaces has helped. Not having training with entering Bravo, or Charlie for that matter still leaves a little bit of concern not having done it. It is great I learned on paper, and know what's going on. I still feel like it would be beneficial to actually have some training within that Airspace.

I should note that under 61.325, a Sport Pilot doesn't have to receive training in each sort of airspace (B/C/D/tower), just flight training at one tower-controlled airport plus ground training on all the other types -- just like PP's.

If a sport pilot is allowed to be NORDO, than shouldn't they be required to have an endorsement to use the COMM, not just how to communicate in B,C,D?

Interesting question. I guess the FAA figures the Sport Pilot who hasn't any training at all with a radio will at least not be in any airspace where radio is required, and thus won't screw things up too terribly if s/he boggles its use.

I agree with Denver, that the bureaucrats could have done a better job making up the rules.

It's amazing how many people say that, and then when challenged to rewrite the rules better, find it's a lot harder than they thought to make it work.

 

[MDeitch1976]

It's amazing how many people say that, and then when challenged to rewrite the rules better, find it's a lot harder than they thought to make it work.

I can agree with that statement.
Their job is to make the rules, and my "job" is to complain about the rules I don't like. Hopefully, my opinion and others who share my opinion may encourage amendments.

 

[poadeleted20]

FWIW, I've often thought that when the FAA is writing a new rule, they should run it past these web discussion boards to see what people think it means, and use the questions resulting to refine it before actually making an NPRM. Unfortunately, I don't think the Administrative Procedures Act permits that.

 

[denverpilot]

FWIW, I've often thought that when the FAA is writing a new rule, they should run it past these web discussion boards to see what people think it means, and use the questions resulting to refine it before actually making an NPRM. Unfortunately, I don't think the Administrative Procedures Act permits that.

Or people should just pay attention in the NPRM process.

The law changes that bug me are the Chief Counsel opinions. Bypasses the entire NPRM process, no public comment, just poof... Changed. Also never printed in the actual rulebooks.

I swear if one didn't hang out on the Internet these days, you'd never get your logbook right... for one example.

The differences between Sport and Private are easy. Require the same thing for the same task. Demonstrated ability (Sport) is decidedly smarter than book only (Private). It's actually the Private that's weaker here.