Training tips and tricks?

[wabower]

Agreed.

Perhaps. But if I had to put my money on it I'd say that if they lost it -- it wasn't the lack of gyro -- it was the lack of instruction teaching them how to properly use their gyros.

Given the statistical likelihood of gyro failure and the fact that the vast majority of the fleet has a functional attitude indicator I just can't see it likely that you're going to accidentally get yourself stuck on top while at the same time you encounter a gyro failure.

I'm not saying showing someone what you described is a bad thing. But I would certainly tell them to verify that their gyros were working while they were sorting out their options on top. If they are working then trimming for a reasonable airspeed, reducing power, and focusing on the attitude indicator will be the best recipe IMO.

Before they even think about descending through a layer on top I teach them to contact ATC, declare an emergency, and sort out a plan with them. That entire scenario we mock out.

But, we all have our own opinions

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'd guess that the unpaved restriction might actually be insurance-driven. As a general rule, grass runways tend to be shorter, narrower, and in many ways trickier than paved airports

I'd buy all that except narrower - I've seen some really narrow unpaved strips, but I've seen more that are really wide (sometimes 200' or even more).

And, since I analyze data for a living, and I already did some stuff with the FAA airport database, some numbers that back me up - This is for all public airports in the US:

The average paved runway width is 89 feet, the average grass runway width is 117 feet. For runways with a length greater than or equal to 3000 feet, the average width of paved runways goes up to 95 feet, but the average width of the grass ones goes up to 122, so a pretty even gain.

Here's the distribution for paved runways:

And for grass:

For length, of course, the paved ones win - Average grass runway is 2544 feet long, average paved runway is 4725 feet.

 

[Henning]

OK! Here we go, - improper technique. some of you are admitting that it exists. Whether from improper training, or lack of experience, or just getting a sudden surprise gust a split second before touchdown, improper technique exists, and will bite you if you believe you will always have the "proper technique" to always land with full flaps.

Plan on a final approach with somthing less than full flaps, then on short final, when it is certain that no lessening of control will occur and you have the runway made, then apply full flaps.

Don't go into it automatically, as if you always must land with full flaps.

This is also for light airplanes, not medium/complex machines.

I dump in the last of the flaps anywhere from way out to coming over the fence depending on the approach, but when the wheels hit, full flaps are in.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Data on average airstrip lengths and widths are fine, it's the short (like under 2000 feet) and narrow ones with obstructions in high DA, where many things like full flaps makes the successful difference, no matter the surface.

 

[wabower]

At what altitude do you make the turn from base to final? Why in the world would you suggest making two flap changes rather than one during that short segment?

OK! Here we go, - improper technique. some of you are admitting that it exists. Whether from improper training, or lack of experience, or just getting a sudden surprise gust a split second before touchdown, improper technique exists, and will bite you if you believe you will always have the "proper technique" to always land with full flaps.

Plan on a final approach with somthing less than full flaps, then on short final, when it is certain that no lessening of control will occur and you have the runway made, then apply full flaps.

Don't go into it automatically, as if you always must land with full flaps.

This is also for light airplanes, not medium/complex machines.

 

[JHW]

like wayne, i don't see the appeal in making lots of flap changes. When i'm ready for flaps i out the switch all the way down and leave it there. That's usually starting to turn base. One config change, one re-trim, done.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

like wayne, i don't see the appeal in making lots of flap changes. When i'm ready for flaps i out the switch all the way down and leave it there. That's usually starting to turn base. One config change, one re-trim, done.

Depends on the airplane and the situation, of course.

In the Mooney I'll sometimes do as you describe, but there's a LOT of trimming required when adding flaps since the Mooney pitches *down* when you extend flaps, not up like most airplanes do. So, most of the time, I'll do a notch at a time until the trim catches up.

In the DA40, you can extend approach flaps at 108 KIAS and landing flaps at 91 KIAS, and it's difficult to get it down to 91 KIAS without that first notch of flaps extended, so in that plane I'll extend each notch as soon as I'm slow enough.

In the 182, it's got just the right pitch-up moment that the pattern is really easy - Start at 100 mph and 2000 RPM on downwind, pull power to 1500 or so abeam the numbers and start descending. Then, extend one notch (10º) on the downwind-to-base turn, and the rest on the base-to-final turn. You end up perfectly set up at 80mph on final with no trim changes at all, and the only power change is the one abeam the numbers. Piece of cake.

Of course, IFR in the 182 I'm often asked for best forward speed on the approach if there's a jet on my tail, in which case I'll fly it clean down to about 3/4 mile final, pull the power, and hit the flaps - It's limited to 160mph for the first notch and 110 for the rest, but usually by the time the flaps get past the first notch it'll be slowed sufficiently.

Nothing works 100% of the time, but full flaps prior to touchdown is a good idea in nearly every airplane.

 

[nosehair]

At what altitude do you make the turn from base to final? Why in the world would you suggest making two flap changes rather than one during that short segment?

As I said earlier, I "normally", or "standardly" plan on a smooth greaser with about half flaps. Where I put down that first increment or two depends on the approach, but in a "standard" pattern probably on base or early final.
THEN...then, as I slide down final, I make the final decision to add more flaps to full flaps if I'm a little high, or I'm light and maybe a tad fast, so I use the ace up my sleeve with the last little bit of flap.

Keeps me sharp on power off spot landings.