Training IFR and not taking the test

texasag93

texasag93

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texasag93
A friend of mine is suggesting that I take IFR training but do not do the tests.

His logic is that if I do something wrong, that an IFR rated pilot will get into more hot water than a VFR pilot.

Is there any truth to this?

I have 150 hours and have to build to 200 in order to fly the club bonanza and doing the IRF training would get me to that point.
 
Different strokes, but if I did all the training to be competent to pass the test, I'd take the test. Otherwise, I'd probably regret not taking it down the line when I wanted to file and couldn't.
 
texasag93 said:
A friend of mine is suggesting that I take IFR training but do not do the tests.

His logic is that if I do something wrong, that an IFR rated pilot will get into more hot water than a VFR pilot.

Is there any truth to this?
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:

Is he suggesting that you do the training, not take the ride, and fly IFR anyway? Sigh.

Extra training is never a bad idea, IFR training is no different. To get the training without the rating to get out of trouble is one thing, to file and fly IFR is a totally different thing.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
:rolleyes:

Is he suggesting that you do the training, not take the ride, and fly IFR anyway? Sigh.

Extra training is never a bad idea, IFR training is no different. To get the training without the rating to get out of trouble is one thing, to file and fly IFR is a totally different thing.
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He is not saying that at all, he is saying that to take the test and have a more advanced rating would cause me to get into more trouble if I did something wrong. His tone was that the FAA would say 'you are only VFR' and I would get in less hot water.
 
texasag93 said:
He is not saying that at all, he is saying that to take the test and have a more advanced rating would cause me to get into more trouble if I did something wrong. His tone was that the FAA would say 'you are only VFR' and I would get in less hot water.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't bet on it. :no::D
 
texasag93 said:
He is not saying that at all, he is saying that to take the test and have a more advanced rating would cause me to get into more trouble if I did something wrong. His tone was that the FAA would say 'you are only VFR' and I would get in less hot water.
Click to expand...

Well, that's easy, just don't do anything wrong!

If you do the training, get the rating. I wouldn't suggest planning for a violation.
 
I would think "hot water" is "hot water" no matter what the rating, if an enforcement situation was warranted. Something about this fellow's advice isn't sitting right in my brain and sounds like he's trying to make an impression without all the correct facts in order.

And are you actually anticipating hot water?

Knowing what you're flying, and some of the missions you've shared with me that you want to be doing, I'd vote to get the full rating, and then use it enough to maintain a level of competency that you're happy with.

Being a practical money guy, it don't make sense to spend all the cash for the training and then not have the rating at the end.
 
That's not the silliest thing I ever heard.....

But it's close.

The FAA generally smacks you harder based on the type of operation you're doing, not on the basis of your grade of certificate or the ratings you have. If you're a professional pilot flying for a 135 or 121 operator, then they expect you to be current and less likely to do stupid pilot tricks. An ATP who hasn't flown for hire in a while gets some slack.

But regardless, you've got to do something egregious (have your friend look it up) for the FAA to try and sock it to you. The best way to avoid problems is to not screw up. And the best way to not screw up is to stay proficient, expand your knowledge, and use good judgement. Getting additional ratings is a way to expand your knowledge, and it seems silly to me to spend the time to become a proficient instrument pilot and then NOT take the checkride and be able to use those skills on a regular basis.
 
texasag93 said:
A friend of mine is suggesting that I take IFR training but do not do the tests.

His logic is that if I do something wrong, that an IFR rated pilot will get into more hot water than a VFR pilot.

Is there any truth to this?

I have 150 hours and have to build to 200 in order to fly the club bonanza and doing the IRF training would get me to that point.
Click to expand...

texasag93 said:
He is not saying that at all, he is saying that to take the test and have a more advanced rating would cause me to get into more trouble if I did something wrong. His tone was that the FAA would say 'you are only VFR' and I would get in less hot water.
Click to expand...

Wow. I really thought that I had heard it all...but then I see people say stuff like this. :)

I've never seen, nor heard of anything like that being the case. Do the training. Take the test. File and fly IFR. Enjoy your new freedom.
 
If you are going to do the training, go ahead and just do the test. I don't think you will regret it. No since in being able to fly the Bonanza and not be able to fly IFR if you need to. You can fly patterns and local stuff in an airplane not so equipped to go places.

Cheers
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Wouldn't bet on it. :no::D
Click to expand...
I agree with Greg.

If you want to fly IFR, do the training and get the rating. If not, get whatever advanced training is appropriate to the flying you want to do. What I would recommend against is getting the IR just to get the IR. Spend your money wisely, getting training appropriate to your personal flying plans, whatever they happen to be.
 
texasag93 said:
A friend of mine is suggesting that I take IFR training but do not do the tests.

His logic is that if I do something wrong, that an IFR rated pilot will get into more hot water than a VFR pilot.

Is there any truth to this?

I have 150 hours and have to build to 200 in order to fly the club bonanza and doing the IRF training would get me to that point.
Click to expand...

I think that's ridiculous.
 
I do not plan on flying dangerously or getting into hot water.

I am VERY conservative on the ground and in the air. My CPAs and attorney's that I have ever dealt with think that I am over cautious.

My flight instructors (other than one) have thought I was very cautious.

I know only 3 or 4 pilots that I talk to and this guy is the only one I talk to regularly.

I was looking for other people's opinions.

I am part of a club in Denton and I am enjoying the learning process of flying. Part of the learning process is learning who is full of sheeeeeit and who is not.
 
texasag93 said:
He is not saying that at all, he is saying that to take the test and have a more advanced rating would cause me to get into more trouble if I did something wrong. His tone was that the FAA would say 'you are only VFR' and I would get in less hot water.
Click to expand...

Guess having an ATP was a retarded move on my part :confused:

Your friend is kinds "out there"
 
texasag93 said:
A friend of mine is suggesting that I take IFR training but do not do the tests.

His logic is that if I do something wrong, that an IFR rated pilot will get into more hot water than a VFR pilot.

Is there any truth to this?

I have 150 hours and have to build to 200 in order to fly the club bonanza and doing the IRF training would get me to that point.
Click to expand...

I am doing the training, I WILL TEST OUT. Don't you think the FAA would look at your training in your log book. AND possibly your instructor!
Don't change your friend, just don't take his advice!
 
TMetzinger said:
The FAA generally smacks you harder based on the type of operation you're doing, not on the basis of your grade of certificate or the ratings you have. If you're a professional pilot flying for a 135 or 121 operator, then they expect you to be current and less likely to do stupid pilot tricks. An ATP who hasn't flown for hire in a while gets some slack.
Click to expand...
FAA Order 2150.3B Chapter 7 Sanction Guidance Policies, paragraph 4 Mitigating or Aggravating Factors and Elements. "c. Certificate Holder’s Level of Experience.
(1) Level of experience refers primarily to the type of certificate and ratings held (for example, student, private, commercial, airline transport pilot, or certified flight instructor), and the number of hours flown, by the certificate holder. Certificate holders with greater levels of experience may be held to a higher standard. Thus, for example, commercial pilots may be held to a higher standard than private pilots and airline transport pilots may be held to an even higher standard than commercial pilots."

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/2150.3 B W-Chg 4.pdf
 
texasag93 said:
I do not plan on flying dangerously or getting into hot water.

I am VERY conservative on the ground and in the air. My CPAs and attorney's that I have ever dealt with think that I am over cautious.

My flight instructors (other than one) have thought I was very cautious.

I know only 3 or 4 pilots that I talk to and this guy is the only one I talk to regularly.

I was looking for other people's opinions.

I am part of a club in Denton and I am enjoying the learning process of flying. Part of the learning process is learning who is full of sheeeeeit and who is not.
Click to expand...

I think you can safely throw out the BS penalty flag on this bit of advice. Get your Instrument rating.

The only time I can ever recall any dependable information about a pilot being held to a higher standard because of ratings was an article I read in AOPA about a CFI sitting in the back seat riding around with two guys up front doing dumb stuff. The FAA took enforcement action and it was upheld. They said his CFI rating required him to act in some way to reduce the level of stupidity. He took no action while in the aircraft. To the best of my recollection (it has been a while) I think the FAA would have been satisfied if the CFI had verbally objected to the actions of the PIC. It was however clearly proven he took no action to admonish the PIC and suggest a different course of action. They nailed the CFI.
 
I look at it this way:

Advantages of getting IFR rating:
1. Enhanced ability to make go and no go decisions.
2. Ability to fly through clouds when safe to do so legally. Thus the ability to fly more often maybe.
3. Possibly cheaper insurance.
4. Even if you do not use it all the time you are probably safer
Advantages of going through the training but not getting the certificate
1. No DPE charge.
2. No written charge.
Both of which are probably negated after counting the insurance breaks.

It is a no brainer for me.

Doug
 
Ron Levy said:
I agree with Greg.

If you want to fly IFR, do the training and get the rating. If not, get whatever advanced training is appropriate to the flying you want to do. What I would recommend against is getting the IR just to get the IR. Spend your money wisely, getting training appropriate to your personal flying plans, whatever they happen to be.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

If you want to be a better pilot, and don't plan to fly in IFR conditions, then I would think there is different training that would serve you better.

And just an FYI: I have yet to hear Ron say anything that wasn't worth listening to. I have to say he the best resource on this site, not to slight the other great resources here.
 
Instrument training is generally done in three phases and in this order:

1. BAI: learning how to keep the blue side up and the brown side down with reference solely to instruments.

2. Procedures: Departure, Arrival and Approach procedures.

3. X-country: putting it all together to fly in the system.

If you only do part of it, at least finish the BAI, but beware, even instrument rated pilots suffer from high accident rates due to continuing VFR into IMC. So completing BAI training might have the seemingly paradoxical effect of making you a less safe pilot due to false overconfidence!

The logic behind this assertion is that when I fly IFR, i.e., in the system, regardless of the weather, I am more "tuned up" for the flight. So from pre-flight to landing my brain is in the full ON state and I find that I fly way more ahead of the airplane than I do under VFR. From rotation to visual on landing I am flying on instruments, even when there is not a whisper of a cloud along my route, but if I do happen to venture into IMC in this state it is a non-event and no sudden transition to instruments occurs. Of course when IFR in VMC I also keep an eye out for VFR traffic but the instruments have the bulk of my attention.

If you do finish the rating, I highly recommend that you do what my instrument instructor told me to do with it: use it, use it on every cross country, even if the weather is severe clear along the entire route. So that's what I do. The proficiency that you will maintain by doing so will make you a safer pilot, regardless of the weather.
 
Your friend is an idiot...Why would you want to spend 10,000+dollars on training and never earn the privileges?
 
texasag93 said:
He is not saying that at all, he is saying that to take the test and have a more advanced rating would cause me to get into more trouble if I did something wrong. His tone was that the FAA would say 'you are only VFR' and I would get in less hot water.
Click to expand...

Sounds bogus to me. I do not believe that there is a matrix of sanctions based on IFR/VFR, number of hours, color of hair, or anything other than the regulation that has allegedly been violated. Get the rating, and take what this guy says in the future with a grain of salt.

Edit: Sorry, Jim Meade...I was not aware of that regulation (although I agree with it).

Bob Gardner
 
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