Train for Rotor or Wing?

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bigblockz8

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Gore
I'm a fixed wing student. My true passion is helicopters. This is my little secret and now it's out. I am at a point where I am about 40% towards my goal of a PP-ASEL. I saw a 369 three weeks ago and my rotor bug has been nagging me ever since.

I initially started as a heli student and I was ready to be signed off to take the knowledge test and I had the POH remembered nearly word for word. I needed to learn wx,airspace, and VOR navigation and then my CFI would be ready to let me take my knowledge test and then we'd resume training. I had to give up on helicopters because it was a 80 mile round trip journey to the airport and my mom was not very happy about doing that drive.

I can drive now and I'm starting a collegiate training program that could get me the funds to train at the old flight school. My predicament is that I love helicopters but, I am near solo with fixed wing and the airport (where the fixed are at) has become a second home and second family. I love aircraft, don't get me wrong but, I love helicopters even more so.

I was wondering for those of you with commercial fixed and rotor ratings, which did you choose and why? I eventually want to get both in order to have an flying plan b of action if I lose one gig. Which would you recommend doing first?

I miss the R22. I had an easier learning curve and everything was natural. The college program has four options: Flight management, ATC, Flight training (rotor or fixed). I choose undecided flight training. I understand that fixed is cheaper (and I love that fact) but my main reason for being undecided is the new House Rule regarding ATP regs. I can't see how that is going to work out or if it is even going to do so. I was told that several flight students have abandoned aviation for now or have changed majors.

I'm in this major to use my pell grant to cover a large percentage of my training as well as use a loan. I have fallback plans that do not involve aviation and start at 2x-4x what a regional FO starts at. It's not about money :wink2:, that can be paid back.

There is a waiting list of CFI's waiting to be hired at the local flight schools and all of this is coming together and is ready to hit the fan...


If I read the reg's correctly I think I could do this:

  1. PP-ASEL
  2. IFR (Ending at about 80-100hrs TT)
  3. Start on a Commercial Rotorcraft at 100hrs (realistically needing 50+ to pass PTS)
  4. Get commercial rotorcraft rating
  5. Add-on a commercial glider
  6. Build glider time
  7. At 200hrs start working toward the C-ASEL
  8. 250hrs Obtain C-ASEL
  9. Work on CFI for airplanes and gliders
  10. Build TT in spare time with weekend glider tows, banner tows, ferry flights,etc.
  11. Instruct ASEL weekdays, -G weekends and tow gliders as well
  12. Work on CFII, MEI,etc
  13. Build time as a CFI and then look for CFI-H gigs
  14. Decide which to pursue
 
If you want to make a living flying, you might as well be both fixed and rotor then. The way I remember it as cheapest was go commercial fixed wing using what you can of your 50 hrs rotor towards that then finishing up rotor.
 
Henning said:
If you want to make a living flying, you might as well be both fixed and rotor then. The way I remember it as cheapest was go commercial fixed wing using what you can of your 50 hrs rotor towards that then finishing up rotor.
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For some STRANGE reason there's a few Commercial CFI/I Heli pilots circling the airport in Cessna 150s getting their fixed wing ratings. They instruct heli's and dry off cherries for a living. Dude's are hardcore though, doing 10hour days in a Cessna 150, flying 3 hours one way to find an airport with a tower open at night then coming home etc...
 
That's because the rotor job market sucks harder than fixed wing, especially for civilians.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Really? Please explain.
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Amount of jobs available and the fact that most of them are in single pilot turbine ships where the employers are looking for significant PIC turbine rotor time. They have to compete with military pilots coming out of the sandbox who have significant turbine time/experience & excellent training. It makes it hard for a civilian who can barely afford to rent an R22 to break into the market. The R-66 may help this some if the tour operators start using them, but with the number of jobs available and the influx of military pilots coming out, I doubt that it will create a great improvement in opportunity on the civilian side.

Then there is the pay scale factor, the top typical pay scales outside a few jobs will be well below the top typical pay scales at an airline.

I know 6 guys all were rotor Army, all ended up in airliners except one who does logging and fire.
 
Henning said:
Amount of jobs available and the fact that most of them are in single pilot turbine ships where the employers are looking for significant PIC turbine rotor time. They have to compete with military pilots coming out of the sandbox who have significant turbine time/experience & excellent training. It makes it hard for a civilian who can barely afford to rent an R22 to break into the market. The R-66 may help this some if the tour operators start using them, but with the number of jobs available and the influx of military pilots coming out, I doubt that it will create a great improvement in opportunity on the civilian side.

Then there is the pay scale factor, the top typical pay scales outside a few jobs will be well below the top typical pay scales at an airline.

I know 6 guys all were rotor Army, all ended up in airliners except one who does logging and fire.
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Honestly I don't know where you come up with this stuff.

The military is putting out fewer rotor wing aviators. The ratios of military trained vs civilian trained rotor pilots has shifted to the civilian side, and that happened several years ago.

I have been associated with or have acquaintances flying for PHI (both oil&gas and aeromedical), Bristow, ERA, Rotorcraft Leasing, Metro, Air Methods and some smaller outfits.

PHI will take a pilot with 500 hours and put them in the left seat (co-pilot) on a mid size ship (S-76) or big ship (S-92) and fly them for a while, then move them to the right seat (captain) on a B206. They even have some B206's that are flown dual pilot by contract.

ERA and RLC will take lower time guys as well.

The GOM has guys that have worked oil & gas for years and are making very nice money as well as schedule (7 on/7 off).

EMS guys can do well also, albeit depends upon location.

Considering the GOM alone has approx. 3,000 to 5,000 flights per day there is alot of helicopter activity which equates into jobs, and right now I would say more RW jobs than FW. Just a look at the job sites proves that out.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Honestly I don't know where you come up with this stuff.

The military is putting out fewer rotor wing aviators. The ratios of military trained vs civilian trained rotor pilots has shifted to the civilian side, and that happened several years ago.

I have been associated with or have acquaintances flying for PHI (both oil&gas and aeromedical), Bristow, ERA, Rotorcraft Leasing, Metro, Air Methods and some smaller outfits.

PHI will take a pilot with 500 hours and put them in the left seat (co-pilot) on a mid size ship (S-76) or big ship (S-92) and fly them for a while, then move them to the right seat (captain) on a B206. They even have some B206's that are flown dual pilot by contract.

ERA and RLC will take lower time guys as well.

The GOM has guys that have worked oil & gas for years and are making very nice money as well as schedule (7 on/7 off).

EMS guys can do well also, albeit depends upon location.

Considering the GOM alone has approx. 3,000 to 5,000 flights per day there is alot of helicopter activity which equates into jobs, and right now I would say more RW jobs than FW. Just a look at the job sites proves that out.
Click to expand...

Just as a side note to this, I follow a helicopter job posting site on twitter and it seems that every two or three days there are new jobs being posted. Some require a lot of time but there are also a lot that don't.
 
I worked GOM and rode those helos many times. I don't know one pilot that made more than $45k a year, maybe the wages have increased since then. As for the hiring practices at PHI, I haven't looked at one of their ads in a while, but the ones I recall require turbine time.
 
Henning said:
I worked GOM and rode those helos many times. I don't know one pilot that made more than $45k a year,
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$50+k to start. Not unusual to find a mid size ship or large ship Capt making well into six figures.

Henning said:
As for the hiring practices at PHI, I haven't looked at one of their ads in a while, but the ones I recall require turbine time.
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Speaks for itself. You are relying on "ads" and outdated info.

Welcome to 2012.
 
I work for a state agency that has a Rotor unit. I just got my PPL (which they require you to have) and now can start applying for the unit. Hopefully with some luck i can get in. Unlike the civilian market, our agency requires you to do certain things before you can even apply. So people like me (with 5 years exp) have somewhat of an edge over someone who has been in the military, but has to gain some experience before applying.

Get accepted, i will be set for the rest of my life. Build up my hours and hopefully fly for a hospital at some point down the road.
 
I'm dual rated but I got my helicopter commercial add-on pretty late in life. I thought about switching to rotor but, at the time (late 1990s), fixed-wing jobs were much more plentiful and didn't require relocating. I also thought about my 125 rotor hours compared to my 6,000 fixed-wing hours and decided it didn't make too much sense. Helicopter companies always had requirements for time in category. I ended up sticking with fixed-wing and for me it probably turned out OK.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Honestly I don't know where you come up with this stuff.

The military is putting out fewer rotor wing aviators. The ratios of military trained vs civilian trained rotor pilots has shifted to the civilian side, and that happened several years ago.

I have been associated with or have acquaintances flying for PHI (both oil&gas and aeromedical), Bristow, ERA, Rotorcraft Leasing, Metro, Air Methods and some smaller outfits.

PHI will take a pilot with 500 hours and put them in the left seat (co-pilot) on a mid size ship (S-76) or big ship (S-92) and fly them for a while, then move them to the right seat (captain) on a B206. They even have some B206's that are flown dual pilot by contract.

ERA and RLC will take lower time guys as well.

The GOM has guys that have worked oil & gas for years and are making very nice money as well as schedule (7 on/7 off).

EMS guys can do well also, albeit depends upon location.

Considering the GOM alone has approx. 3,000 to 5,000 flights per day there is alot of helicopter activity which equates into jobs, and right now I would say more RW jobs than FW. Just a look at the job sites proves that out.
Click to expand...

It would seem logical to expect an increase in the number of military pilots coming into the civilian market because of the wind-down of the wars in the sand box. As an incentive to military downsizing we have large cuts to the military budget that are scheduled to occur but, of course, our Washington folks are totally unpredictable in that regard. :mad2:
 
It's all timing and money.

The pilot shortage is coming! The pilot shortage is coming!

:)
 
Do what you really want to do....so fly helicopters. The road will be long no matter if you take the civilian or military route. Could you make more money faster as a fixed wing guy?... probably in most cases. Some people choose their careers while other fall into theirs.

Be a CFI until you can fly the Gulf or fly tours then after 2K turbine you can pick your job location in the EMS world or any where you want. 5-10 years ago it was a different story so don't let the nay sayers keep you grounded. Just like anything....if your good, you will make more money than most....if you suck you will wash out or worse. Good luck!
 
If a guy like me with 9K fixed wing decided to start flying Rotor how long til my numbers would look impressive enough to be hired.

9K fixed ATP / 50 Rotor PPL = no joy

9K fixed ATP / 200 Rotor CPL = maybe?

9K fixed ATP / ? Rotor CPL = Competitive

Think piston vs. turbin changes the rotor needed?
 
Here's a sad thought, because it's not a truly competitive industry.

Once you meet the legal minimums it probably depends on who you know and how hard you've kissed their ass.

It's not like they'll pull you out of the seat to hire someone higher qualified as long as you're doing the job.
 
Captain said:
If a guy like me with 9K fixed wing decided to start flying Rotor how long til my numbers would look impressive enough to be hired.

9K fixed ATP / 50 Rotor PPL = no joy

9K fixed ATP / 200 Rotor CPL = maybe?

9K fixed ATP / ? Rotor CPL = Competitive

Think piston vs. turbin changes the rotor needed?
Click to expand...

It boils down to having at least 2K turbine to get a VFR turbine job, 2.5K turbine for an IFR program. There are exceptions to the 2K minimum (outside the Gulf region) but you will be working for far less because it is a time building job.
 
drizzt76 said:
It boils down to having at least 2K turbine to get a VFR turbine job, 2.5K turbine for an IFR program. There are exceptions to the 2K minimum (outside the Gulf region) but you will be working for far less because it is a time building job.
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You're talking about turbine helicopter time not turbine fixed-wing time, correct?
 
denverpilot said:
Here's a sad thought, because it's not a truly competitive industry.

Once you meet the legal minimums it probably depends on who you know and how hard you've kissed their ass.

It's not like they'll pull you out of the seat to hire someone higher qualified as long as you're doing the job.
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Well if you mean that once your hired, flying safely, get along with crewmembers, etc. you have some job security....that's a good thing. Once you meet the legal minimums in the helicopter industry there isn't too much ass kissing involved....you will get a job. It took me 2 minutes to find this link http://www1.recruitingcenter.net/clients/AIRMETHODS/publicjobs/controller.cfm I live in Iowa and there are other EMS jobs out there from other contracts. Maybe 5-10 years ago you had to know someone but not anymore.
 
Everskyward said:
You're talking about turbine helicopter time not turbine fixed-wing time, correct?
Click to expand...


Turbine helicopter...actually the minimums went down....here is an example from the website I posted above..Flight Hour Requirements (all in category - "rotor wing"):

  • 2000 hours total time.
  • 1000 rotor wing PIC hours.
  • 50 hours actual or hood instrument time.
  • 500 rotor wing turbine hours.
  • 100 rotor wing unaided night hours.
 
drizzt76 said:
Turbine helicopter...actually the minimums went down....here is an example from the website I posted above..Flight Hour Requirements (all in category - "rotor wing"):
Click to expand...
That's what I remember, that they were always interested in time in category, which makes sense but didn't really do me any good. Of course if I had stuck with it this about 13 years later so I would have had it by now. :rofl:

That's OK. I have no regrets about it and it was a cool learning experience. It also gives people the chance to look at me with a question mark on their face when they see my certificate.
 
Everskyward said:
That's what I remember, that they were always interested in time in category, which makes sense but didn't really do me any good. Of course if I had stuck with it this about 13 years later so I would have had it by now. :rofl:

That's OK. I have no regrets about it and it was a cool learning experience. It also gives people the chance to look at me with a question mark on their face when they see my certificate.
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You probably learned how to use your feet! I just started flying a Citabria and the CFI who signed me off said I was the easiest tail-wheel student he ever had. I'm not that good....just my rotor time helped.
 
drizzt76 said:
You probably learned how to use your feet! I just started flying a Citabria and the CFI who signed me off said I was the easiest tail-wheel student he ever had. I'm not that good....just my rotor time helped.
Click to expand...
Actually I think I remember that I had to learn to us my wrong foot! Left pedal instead of right when adding power. I also remember the charts blowing out the nonexistent doors once when I was clumsy with the pedals. Then we landed in the field and picked them up... :redface:

I had lots of bad fixed-wing habits.
 
Everskyward said:
Actually I think I remember that I had to learn to us my wrong foot! Left pedal instead of right when adding power. I also remember the charts blowing out the nonexistent doors once when I was clumsy with the pedals. Then we landed in the field and picked them up... :redface:

I had lots of bad fixed-wing habits.
Click to expand...


That's funny! I wrestled more than one chart trying to escape...
 
Banjo33 said:
With what, your teeth!!?? Or do u have three arms? Lol
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I wouldn't say I was flying very straight/level when I was pulling it in... a helicopter (OH-58) can fly hands off....for about one second. :rofl:
 
Well, a few years back dear old Robinson quietly declared R22 rotors before a certain serial number non airworthy and cost my buddy Larry a bloody fortune... He thought his troubles were over...
And just now, Robinson has taken the tail rotors that had a 6500 hour life rating (no time limit) and silently inserted into the maintenance manual a new 2500 hours AND 12 years limit...
No letter to the owners, no public announcement, simply changed the sentence in the manual and went back to their coffee... There are herds of R22's flying at this moment that are legally not airworthy (no insurance, bucko) and the owners are flying them in blissful ignorance...
So, Larry is bending over again...
Ahhh yes, the fun and thrills of being a Robinson rotor head..
 
Having dual rating Greg I can tell you for sheer fun and a feeling of accomplishment I'd go with helos. Obviously flying a helicopter is more difficult that flying a fixed-wing. Unless you are going to fly a large twin eng rotor odds are there won't be an autopilot or any stabilizing devices. Just you and both feet and arms.

From an efficiency point of view I can't stand helicopters. Sure they do VTOL well but guzzling 50 gal per hour to do 130 KTAS isn't my idea of efficiency. Fixed-wing is far smoother and less stress on the aircraft. A helicopter is one big drag monster with a fan barely pulling it along.

Jobs? Well I can't speak for fixed-wing since I just do that for fun. As for helos, well like Henning said you'll be competing against military pilots like myself who had Uncle Sam pay for our training with an unlimited (due to GWOT) flying budget. Yes Rotor & Wing is right they have been putting less pilots through but only recently. I can tell you when I instructed Black Hawks in The Army between 2005-2009 we put double the amount of students through than when I was a student. With a 6 yr obligation and the wars drawing down you can imagine those people will be finding somewhere to go for work. Of course military could be an option for you? Pay isn't bad and you might qualify for post 9/11 GI bill which now pays 100 percent of flight training at an approved school.

I currently fly EMS and I can tell you there aren't too many jobs that have satisfaction like this one. Single pilot, challenging flying, 7 on and 7 off, and no one is shooting at ya! Pay ain't the best. All the companies start out in the mid-high 50s. I thinks that's double compared to commuter stuff and I have no idea what atypical CFI makes fixed or rotor. Of course ATP airline guys blow us out of the water in pay, but who wants the type in an FMS and let the autopilot take away all the fun!:) Yep we have some serious hour requirements so it's generally not going to be a first timer helo job. You'll have to do the CFI then the oil stuff for a few years. Still, I love the job and really can't think of a flying gig that suits my personality more than this one...maybe flying fighters. But hey everyone wants to do that right?
 
Velocity173 said:
Having dual rating Greg I can tell you for sheer fun and a feeling of accomplishment I'd go with helos. Obviously flying a helicopter is more difficult that flying a fixed-wing. Unless you are going to fly a large twin eng rotor odds are there won't be an autopilot or any stabilizing devices. Just you and both feet and arms.

From an efficiency point of view I can't stand helicopters. Sure they do VTOL well but guzzling 50 gal per hour to do 130 KTAS isn't my idea of efficiency. Fixed-wing is far smoother and less stress on the aircraft. A helicopter is one big drag monster with a fan barely pulling it along.

Jobs? Well I can't speak for fixed-wing since I just do that for fun. As for helos, well like Henning said you'll be competing against military pilots like myself who had Uncle Sam pay for our training with an unlimited (due to GWOT) flying budget. Yes Rotor & Wing is right they have been putting less pilots through but only recently. I can tell you when I instructed Black Hawks in The Army between 2005-2009 we put double the amount of students through than when I was a student. With a 6 yr obligation and the wars drawing down you can imagine those people will be finding somewhere to go for work. Of course military could be an option for you? Pay isn't bad and you might qualify for post 9/11 GI bill which now pays 100 percent of flight training at an approved school.

I currently fly EMS and I can tell you there aren't too many jobs that have satisfaction like this one. Single pilot, challenging flying, 7 on and 7 off, and no one is shooting at ya! Pay ain't the best. All the companies start out in the mid-high 50s. I thinks that's double compared to commuter stuff and I have no idea what atypical CFI makes fixed or rotor. Of course ATP airline guys blow us out of the water in pay, but who wants the type in an FMS and let the autopilot take away all the fun!:) Yep we have some serious hour requirements so it's generally not going to be a first timer helo job. You'll have to do the CFI then the oil stuff for a few years. Still, I love the job and really can't think of a flying gig that suits my personality more than this one...maybe flying fighters. But hey everyone wants to do that right?
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Thanks. I heard about that spike a few years back. I was talking to an Army helo pilot the other day and he said he stayed simply because the pay was the same as civilian work but he has the thrill of flying in danger. I personally can't do military but haven't had as much fun flying since a little R22. I can't imagine bigger!
 
bigblockz8 said:
Thanks. I heard about that spike a few years back. I was talking to an Army helo pilot the other day and he said he stayed simply because the pay was the same as civilian work but he has the thrill of flying in danger. I personally can't do military but haven't had as much fun flying since a little R22. I can't imagine bigger!
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Is there an issue that really means you can't or you just don't want to do the military?

If I were young again that is exactly the path I would take. It's a whole different world, a world where a 17 year old is trusted with multi-million dollar equipment, and given powerful weapons to make life and death decisions with. In the civilian world a 17 year old is barely trusted to push the button on the french fry machine at McDonalds.

I listen to young people talking about how hard college is, etc. Please, after being the in service college was the easiest thing I ever did in life. Sounds cliché, but ask anyone who did the same, it will make so much of the rest of your life easy.

Specific to helicopters, look at the cost of an hour of turbine (you need 2,000), how about if I PAID you to learn to fly it? No R-22, straight to turbines, who wouldn't do that?
 
Alexb2000 said:
Is there an issue that really means you can't or you just don't want to do the military?

If I were young again that is exactly the path I would take. It's a whole different world, a world where a 17 year old is trusted with multi-million dollar equipment, and given powerful weapons to make life and death decisions with. In the civilian world a 17 year old is barely trusted to push the button on the french fry machine at McDonalds.

I listen to young people talking about how hard college is, etc. Please, after being the in service college was the easiest thing I ever did in life. Sounds cliché, but ask anyone who did the same, it will make so much of the rest of your life easy.

Specific to helicopters, look at the cost of an hour of turbine (you need 2,000), how about if I PAID you to learn to fly it? No R-22, straight to turbines, who wouldn't do that?
Click to expand...

Well I could do military but I would not fly at all. Medical problems would set me back. However I also have personal reasons. Don't get me wrong, I come from a long line of servicemen but I wouldn't join unless there were a crisis. Personally I would LOVE to be trained and have all the flying that I could ever want. I just don't want to ever fall into having to pull a trigger to kill. To non-lethally harm/disable not a problem but that wont stop someone from launching a RPG at the ground units so that's that.

Unlimited training and the best aircraft out there, that's a dream job.
 
bigblockz8 said:
Well I could do military but I would not fly at all. Medical problems would set me back. However I also have personal reasons. Don't get me wrong, I come from a long line of servicemen but I wouldn't join unless there were a crisis. Personally I would LOVE to be trained and have all the flying that I could ever want. I just don't want to ever fall into having to pull a trigger to kill. To non-lethally harm/disable not a problem but that wont stop someone from launching a RPG at the ground units so that's that.

Unlimited training and the best aircraft out there, that's a dream job.
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I understand, it's a personal choice. If you can pass a military flight physical, how about the coast guard? Lots of rotor wing flying and perhaps less morally objectionable?
 
bigblockz8 said:
Well I could do military but I would not fly at all. Medical problems would set me back. However I also have personal reasons. Don't get me wrong, I come from a long line of servicemen but I wouldn't join unless there were a crisis. Personally I would LOVE to be trained and have all the flying that I could ever want. I just don't want to ever fall into having to pull a trigger to kill. To non-lethally harm/disable not a problem but that wont stop someone from launching a RPG at the ground units so that's that.

Unlimited training and the best aircraft out there, that's a dream job.
Click to expand...


Not like you'd have an option but not all are involved in combat aircraft. You could end up in transport duty.
 
bigblockz8 said:
Well I could do military but I would not fly at all. Medical problems would set me back. However I also have personal reasons. Don't get me wrong, I come from a long line of servicemen but I wouldn't join unless there were a crisis. Personally I would LOVE to be trained and have all the flying that I could ever want. I just don't want to ever fall into having to pull a trigger to kill. To non-lethally harm/disable not a problem but that wont stop someone from launching a RPG at the ground units so that's that.

Unlimited training and the best aircraft out there, that's a dream job.
Click to expand...

Hard for me to imagine any medical issue that would keep you from flying in the service and yet allow you to fly commercially as a civilian. :dunno: There are a lot of flying jobs in the military that don't include weapons delivery. If you are really motivated, the Coast Guard might be an answer, but the competition for a seat in a CG aircraft is incredibly fierce.
 
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