Traffic Pattern Question

[stagecoachco]

On sunday I was flying the pattern at Longmont (LMO) doing touch and goes on runway 11. I had done a few laps in the pattern (CFI on board). We had just turned from upwind to crosswind (with the appropriate call on the radio) when we heard a Bonanza report three miles north making a 45 degree entry to left downwind for runway 11. I was a little concerned as I figured that would put our paths in convergance. I turned downwind and made my announcement. I was looking pretty hard out the right side of the plane to see if I could locate the Bo. My CFI said that he would look for the Bo, and that I should concentrate on flying the pattern. As we came abeam the numbers for 29, we still did not have the Bo in sight. About mid field my CFI said "there is the Bonanza". I looked out the right to see the Bo making a turn to avoid us. He was pretty close and a little lower.

My question is who had the right of way, and what could have been done different? I do know that my radio was transmitting, as I was acknowledged earlier by another plane in the pattern. Also I had no problem communicating with ATC on the return to Rocky Mtn Metro (BJC).

Here are my thoughts:

One idea that I had was that I could have made an additional position report when abeam the numbers of 29 to let the Bo know where I was on the downwind. I could have also asked the Bo if he saw me, or knew that I was in the pattern on downwind.

If I had heard his initial call when I was on upwind, I think I would have extended my upwind to give the Bo space to enter the pattern. But, being on crosswind, about to turn downwind, I am not sure what my options were other than leaving the pattern and rejoining on a 45.

Looking at FAR/AIM there do not seem to be any special right of way rules that apply to traffic patterns. Since I was the aircraft to the right (when I saw the Bo, he was slighty ahead of me.) I should have given way. How would you do that in the traffic pattern safely? I would not want to bear left and go over the field (esp. at TPA).

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

 

[ScottM]

My question is who had the right of way, and what could have been done different?

Unfortunately it has been my observation that the Bo believed he had the right of way by virtue of his superior aircraft. What is expected is for you to leave the pattern so that he may land without any delay.

FWIW you were in the pattern and it should be up to the incoming AC to fit in. But if he hits you, you are both dead. So a quick position check radio call such as 'Nxxxx is midfield downwind' would not hurt.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You do have the right-of-way in the pattern and entering traffic must give way.

Can you provide a FAR reference for that? It sounds right, but I don't remember any specific rules differentiating right of way in the traffic pattern from right of way elsewhere.

If you use the normal right of way rules... The Bo had it. But that doesn't seem right.

 

[gismo]

Ken, I know of nothing in the AIM or FARs that gives the right of way to an airplane simply because the plane is already in the pattern. Do you have a reference for that? I would agree that it's generally easier for the pilot of the airplane enterring the pattern to adjust their path but AFaIK, legally the airplane who has the other on the left has the right of way in the pattern as well as anywhere else (excepting the case where one is lower).

That said I totally agree with the concept of using the radio to sort things out. In the OP's case I would have called back with "Longmont traffic, Nxxx, midfield left downwind does NOT have Bonanza in sight, Longmont". If that didn't result in the Bonanza reporting me in sight or a response that helped me find the other plane, I'd make yet another call while wearing out my neck and eyeballs. If I was in a high winged plane I'd be especially concerned about the Bonanza being above me (look at your shadow on the ground, and/or make a gentle turn to the left and see if the plane shows up to your right). While trying to avoid totally hogging the frequency I'd keep the "conversation" going until visual contact was established.

You do have the right-of-way in the pattern and entering traffic must give way. But, if you know it's coming, throw in a couple extra position reports as Scott suggested. I had similar happen today but I was the one entering the pattern.

I called on the 45 two miles out and again upon turning downwind. Just after I called entering downwind, an aircraft called turning downwind; the first I'd heard. I could not see him at first so I turned away from the pattern to widen and look back for him again. He then acknowledged following me. As a courtesy, I kept up speed and got ahead of him then took advantage of the situation to give my new student a first look at landing without flaps.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My question is who had the right of way, and what could have been done different?

Well, barring a rule I'm unaware of, the Bo actually had right of way because, as you described it, the Bo is the aircraft to the other's (your) right. But that doesn't seem right. Maybe it's just common courtesy to let aircraft in the pattern stay there, and fit in with them, but I don't know a FAR that says that.

One idea that I had was that I could have made an additional position report when abeam the numbers of 29 to let the Bo know where I was on the downwind. I could have also asked the Bo if he saw me, or knew that I was in the pattern on downwind.

Yup... Sounds good to me.

I should have given way. How would you do that in the traffic pattern safely?

Tough call. I'd say that first and foremost you need to keep a good eye on the Bo. Second, if you're uncomfortably close, maybe move to the inside just a bit (he is to your right, correct?). Third, the Bo is probably going faster than you are and pulling away. Extend your downwind a bit to increase spacing after the Bo turns base. Fourth (well, maybe second!) make another radio call and let the Bo know where you are in relation to him, and how close, and work something about. I'm sure the Bo would probably not mind being asked to speed up to increase separation.

 

[Teller1900]

FWIW you were in the pattern and it should be up to the incoming AC to fit in. But if he hits you, you are both dead. So a quick position check radio call such as 'Nxxxx is midfield downwind' would not hurt.

Indeed. Don't forget, right of way is something given, never taken. The book may say you have the right of way, but the book isn't very good padding if the other guy doesn't give you the right of way. If you know you're about to be in the midst of a conflict, use the radio. Another position report is great, but if, for whatever reason, they don't respond, or their response isn't enough for you to find them, ask them where they are. And I'm not suggesting "any traffic please advise." Ask them where they are.

If you call "Midfield downwind, runway 11" and they respond with "45 for the downwind, runway 11" That's kind of vague. Are they making their 45 at midfield, or abeam the numbers for 29...or the numbers of 11, for that matter? And what altitude are they at? Not everyone sticks to TPA perfectly. If you can't find them, ask them "Bonanza on downwind, this is XXX; we're (say position) at (say altitude), where are you?" It takes no time at all to inquire, if they don't respond you're back in the same spot, but it could get them to tell you where they are (and maybe make them realize there's a potential conflict). It may not be in the AIM, but if my options are AIM or avoid-the-other-guy...I'm going to make an extra radio call.

As far as the original question, though... I think you had the right of way, though like everyone else I can't think of why. If, however, you had decided to bug out and rejoin the pattern, I don't think anyone would hold that against you. As far as how to depart the pattern...well, that's up to your judgment at the moment. Extend a leg of the pattern, turn away from where you think he is, climb/turn out of the pattern...they all have their risks, so you just have to evaluate which one seems like the best option.

 

[ScottM]

Indeed. Don't forget, right of way is something given, never taken.

Agreed, given the speed of the Bo as compared ot the OPs plane, I would have tried to determine if it would be easier for me (if I was in the OPs plane) to slow down and let the Bo in gracefully. It takes everyone working together to get traffic at the airport to work safely.

 

[SkyHog]

There are a few issues that I see you may want to consider:

You mentioned that you were making the radio calls as you should have...it kind of comes off as if you think that aircraft are required to make radio calls. Obviously, it's safer to, but not making them is not a requirement (unfortunately, imho).

The Bo was probably thinking he was fast enough to outrun you in the pattern. That's dumb of him, but I'll bet that is what happened.

IMHO, the best idea would have been to communicate with the Bo, and turn a few 360s on crosswind, giving him downwind. When he was established, you could have continued behind him. Its not the right thing to do, but it sure is safer.

At this point in your training, I'd be less concered with who had the right of way, and more concerned with doing what you must to not hit someone or be hit.

I'm not trying to be harsh, just giving advice.

 

[sba55]

There isn't a right of way rule that addresses this issue.

That said, it's a matter of courtesy and safety. I think it wasn't overly smart of the other guy to enter into a 45 that would put him downwind when you would be downwind, too. In situation like this, I'd be proactive about it, and ask his intentions. If nothing comes out of that, just do a 360. If I had been in that situation, I might have entered on a base instead the 45 and landed before you (on a 3 mile 45, that wouldn't be a problem speed-wise), or if I was too far away, I'd have made a 360.

-Felix

 

[Teller1900]

That said, it's a matter of courtesy and safety. I think it wasn't overly smart of the other guy to enter into a 45 that would put him downwind when you would be downwind, too. In situation like this, I'd be proactive about it, and ask his intentions. If nothing comes out of that, just do a 360.

Just don't forget to announce that you're doing that. If there's someone else transiting just off the end of the runway, or another plane behind you, you don't want to be making random turns that they probably won't know how to interpret.

If I had been in that situation, I might have entered on a base instead the 45 and landed before you (on a 3 mile 45, that wouldn't be a problem speed-wise), or if I was too far away, I'd have made a 360.

-Felix

That's exactly what we usually do. We try to start making radio calls at 20 mi, but sometimes workload just doesn't let us do it until 15-10 miles. If there's someone in the pattern, we'll do our best to mix in with them, but our speed really isn't compatible with most SE planes (or most light twins, unless they keep their speed up). If a light single is turning downwind when we're about 5mi out, we can usually get in on a base/straight in without them having to adjust their speed or pattern at all.

If they're any farther along, though (or we have to cross over midfield to join the downwind - we won't make a right base to a left traffic runway, only left base in left traffic)...we're going to have problems. And if that's the case, we'll generally avoid joining the pattern at all until they're way out of the way (on the runway, preferably). Most of the time this involves flying around in circles 10 miles out, and confusing the crap out of the pax.

Bottom line, though, we're not going to get in the pattern at 130kts behind a Skyhawk unless we see them and they see us; often time that requires a few extra radio calls.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

As far as the original question, though... I think you had the right of way, though like everyone else I can't think of why.

And... We're all wrong.

k. Throughout the traffic pattern, right-of-way rules apply as stated in FAR Part 91.113.

§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.

(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way.

(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

So it appears that in a left-hand pattern, the guy on the 45 has the right of way, while in a right-hand pattern, the guy on downwind has the right of way.

It seems two of the rules might apply here: Converging, and overtaking. The overtaking aircraft is supposed to alter course to the right. When converging, the plane that's NOT on the right (ie the one on downwind) is supposed to alter course to the right so as to pass behind the aircraft on the right. I don't think the latter would work in this situation. I think technically the Bo should be altering course to the right and keeping his speed up, but if the Bo doesn't see you or doesn't care, it's up to you to avoid the collision. Note that you are supposed to pass behind the other aircraft, not over/under/ahead.

So, I'll stick with what I said before: Parallel the downwind just inside the Bo, let him pass you, slide back over onto the downwind, extend downwind to create sufficient separation for landing.

Great question, Tony!

 

[rottydaddy]

One idea that I had was that I could have made an additional position report when abeam the numbers of 29 to let the Bo know where I was on the downwind. I could have also asked the Bo if he saw me, or knew that I was in the pattern on downwind.

This is always a good idea- in general, if you suspect you might get close to the other plane, offer (or ask for) a little more information. The most useful question you can ask is "do you see me?".
The Bo driver obviously saw you, but not quite as soon as he should have. My guess is that he was aware of you from your call, but was not looking over his left shoulder, he was looking at the approach end of the runway. this is one of the problems with the all-hallowed 45-degree entry... it encourages planes to converge out of each other's blind spots, sometimes. Most midairs, I have heard, occur in just that way, although usually outside the pattern. I'm as guilty as anybody for not looking as far back as I can all the time... and if I don't stop it, something bad might happen. It's important, especially when you know there's a plane close by, but it's not visible in the part of your field of view that's easy to scan.

At any rate, he did see you in time, and fortunately for all concerned, he was not a stickler for the rules regarding right-of-way.

If I had heard his initial call when I was on upwind, I think I would have extended my upwind to give the Bo space to enter the pattern. But, being on crosswind, about to turn downwind, I am not sure what my options were other than leaving the pattern and rejoining on a 45.

I'm assuming you were flying a trainer or something less slippery than a Bonanza; that being the case, it'd be wise, and easy, to try to slow down a bit and let the faster plane slide in ahead of you. One is usually leveling off from a climb at around the same time as the turn to downwind, so there shouldn't be much trouble slowing down (within reason- I'm not suggesting you go for MCA, although that's not a problem once you get used to it).
More important than not inconveniencing Mr. Bonanza is the fact that if you slow down, you will have more time to look for him.
Once established on downwind, you can also S-turn or drift inside the pattern a bit as described in another post.

Even all dirtied up for landing, that Bo will be moving along pretty quickly compared to a 172 or Cherokee, especially as it enters the pattern... at which point it may not be configured for landing. That makes it less maneuverable technically, which is another factor in giving way to traffic, although the FAA material cites more obvious examples, like airships vs airplanes.

 

[stagecoachco]

Thanks for all the responses!!!

Just a few more facts that might help with the discussion:

The plane I was in was a C152. I was climbing to pattern alt until about mid field, so my speed was already down to 65-70 kts.

So far from the discussion, I think that I should have made more calls and tried to make contact with the Bo to cordinate his entry to the pattern.

 

[Skip Miller]

I should have given way. How would you do that in the traffic pattern safely? I would not want to bear left and go over the field (esp. at TPA).

No one has addressed this question yet. If you must give way in your situation (right turn out obstructed, potentially with traffic behind you), the best way to do this is to climb out of the pattern. Now in a 152 you are not going to set any vertical speed records.... and climbing out may not be a good option if there is a turbine traffic pattern altitude 500 feet above the piston traffic pattern altitude. So it is all situations, but do consider climbing out. Also, FOR SURE push the button and tell the pattern traffic what you are doing.

-Skip

 

[bobmrg]

Unlike many in this thread, I would not do a 360 without knowing exactly where everyone in the vicinity is located. Although a 152 is not a barn-burner, it can still be slowed to 50 or so (bottom of the green arc is 40, right?) with a tad of flaps as desired. I much prefer to slow down to let intruders get ahead of me.

IMHO the onus was on the Bonanza pilot to positively locate you before entering the pattern, but as others have intimated, that might not be the mindset of many Bonanza pilots.

Bob Gardner

 

[nosehair]

It's a judgement call, since the FAR's don't say with enough specificity for traffic established in the pattern. You have to use the regs as is, and interpolate, like cheeshead says.

But I also look at 91.113(g) Landing. While it says "on final approach", it is a part of the whole picture and careful reading of this paragraph will give some guidance on procedure, and can be used along with the others to help determine right-of-way.

But the bottom line is, of course, to give right away when in doubt.

 

[rottydaddy]

The plane I was in was a C152. I was climbing to pattern alt until about mid field, so my speed was already down to 65-70 kts.

So far from the discussion, I think that I should have made more calls and tried to make contact with the Bo to cordinate his entry to the pattern.

Absolutely...while it's true you don't want to clog the CTAF with unnecessary chatter, a quick "say position" or "do you see me?" can be very necessary.
And remember that slowing down is often a good option, provided you are comfortable with flight near MCA. That's part of why we practice MCA- not just to learn to fly approaches. You can power back and dirty it up whenever you feel the need to do so, not just abeam the numbers on downwind.
A 150 will fly safely at much lower speeds than 65 knots... in such a situation, its inherent pokiness could be a huge asset.

 

[poadeleted20]

14 CFR 91.113(d) makes it pretty clear -- the Bonanza, being on your right in a converging situation at the same altitude, had the right of way. The only time an aircraft trumps that by virtue of landing is when that aircraft is on final approach or actually landing (not just in the pattern), or the aircraft on the left is lower (and in this case, both were at TPA) -- see 91.113(g). That said, it doesn't help being right if you're dead right, so even if you have right of way, yield if need be to avoid a collision, which is what that Bonanza did.

As for what you could have done had you seen the Bonanza, I agree that since you were in a slower plane, maneuvering to get and stay behind him would have been an appropriate move, and a left 360 inside the pattern would have been a good "last ditch" maneuver. Beware of climbing out of the pattern, as there may be a higher heavy/jet pattern 500 above you into which you might inject yourself unexpectedly.

 

[gismo]

I was climbing to pattern alt until about mid field, so my speed was already down to 65-70 kts.

Technically you are supposed to turn crosswind until you are within 300 ft of the pattern altitude. This is supposed to ensure you will reach pattern altitude by the time you turn downwind. If you are still climbing when at mid field on downwind, you are probably turning too soon. Doing that makes it far more difficult for traffic coming into the area to spot you.

As a plane enters a downwind he puts the belly towards that leg and in a low winged plane like a Bonanza, that means a big blind spot so it's essential that any plane on downwind be located before making that turn. By being low when the other plane was "on the 45" you likely made it difficult for the pilot to locate you.

So far from the discussion, I think that I should have made more calls and tried to make contact with the Bo to cordinate his entry to the pattern.

Yep. And it wouldn't have hurt to mention your altitude if the two of you were unable to spot each other.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm sure Lance meant to say:

Technically you are not supposed to turn crosswind until you are within 300 ft of the pattern altitude.

 

[stingray]

Absolutely...while it's true you don't want to clog the CTAF with unnecessary chatter, a quick "say position" or "do you see me?" can be very necessary.
And remember that slowing down is often a good option, provided you are comfortable with flight near MCA. That's part of why we practice MCA- not just to learn to fly approaches. You can power back and dirty it up whenever you feel the need to do so, not just abeam the numbers on downwind.
A 150 will fly safely at much lower speeds than 65 knots... in such a situation, its inherent pokiness could be a huge asset.

In a situation like this communicating is what the radio is for. I would have asked the Bo his intentions so we were both clear as to what was going to happen. "Nxxxxx are you planning on entering ahead of me or after". or "Nxxxxx I will extend crosswind and slow down to let you in front".

Dan

 

[nddons]

That said, it doesn't help being right if you're dead right, so even if you have right of way, yield if need be to avoid a collision, which is what that Bonanza did.

OP, first, nice job on situational awareness. I've been in too many patterns with different aircraft announcing but seemingly not being truly aware of where everyone else is.

I was in the position of the Bonanza on my PP checkride, but a little further out. A plane announced he was remaining in the pattern as he turned crosswind. I could not locate him, and so I announced that I was doing a right 360 for spacing, before entering the downwind leg off the 45. The DPE said that I might have had the right of way, but that I demonstrated that I was in control of the flight, or something equally flattering. I passed.

 

[dmccormack]

In a situation like this communicating is what the radio is for. I would have asked the Bo his intentions so we were both clear as to what was going to happen. "Nxxxxx are you planning on entering ahead of me or after". or "Nxxxxx I will extend crosswind and slow down to let you in front".

Absolutely, positively right -- use that radio and coordinate.

 

[AdamZ]

That said, it doesn't help being right if you're dead right, so even if you have right of way, yield if need be to avoid a collision, .

EXACTLY!!

Also I think some additional radio position reports are helpful.