Traffic pattern question: do you ever...

Well, the rule's been in place since probably longer ago than Marconi invented the radio.

SIDE TRIP!

Marconi didn't invent radio.

Tesla was the first to get the idea and document in 1892. He didn't patent it until a year after Marconi, however. He did apply for a U.S. patent the year after Marconi's UK patent, and it was granted.

Tesla later demonstrated a radio controlled boat three years before Marconi sent his single "S" character across the Atlantic using radio.

And none of them would have done any of it without Maxwell's work in 1884, and Hertz sending UHF across his lab in 1885-1886 without really knowing what was going on.

Tesla was a bonafide genius, but awful businessperson.

Tesla died penniless in 1943, eight months before the U.S. Supreme court threw out all other radio patents and granted them to Tesla.

All evidence now known today indicates that Tesla was the true Father of Radio, not Marconi.
 
He's not just 'entering' the traffic pattern--he demolishes it and makes it over in a new form to his personal liking.

That's a rather dense and incorrect observation.

A midfield crosswind with a left turn onto a left downwind doesn't "demolish" the traffic pattern in the least. It doesn't disturb any other aircraft in the pattern, and allows one to blend with whatever other aircraft are flying a pattern to that runway.

An overhead arrival to a runway, flying a left turn onto the downwind and base doesn't "demolish" the pattern, and doesn't disturb any other aircraft flying a pattern to that runway.
 
An overhead arrival to a runway, flying a left turn onto the downwind and base doesn't "demolish" the pattern, and doesn't disturb any other aircraft flying a pattern to that runway.
It sure does. When the other pilot in the pattern doesn't understand what you are doing, and he doesn't because it's NOT ON THE PTS, it's disruptive. The other guy might not be ar etired naval aviatior, and may not have had to retreive an entire squadron on bingo fuel in 4four minutes.

No don't go whining on aobut how your superior airmanship skills blah blah blah....blah. The pattern is a co-operative place. Do OH breaks at your private airstrip Doug, or when you'rr going to get the ball and snag #2, where there is nobody else to get confused. Yes, he's your responsibility, too.

OH breaks are actually best in slick aircraft but you won't catch me doing one unless there is nobody else in the pattern.
 
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No don't go whining on aobut how your superior airmanship skills blah blah blah....blah. The pattern is a co-operative place. Do OH breaks at your private airstrip Doug, or when you'rr going to get the ball and snag #2, where there is nobody else to get confused. Yes, he's your responsibility, too.

I said nothing of superior airmanship. You did. Speak for yourself.

I said nothing of "overhead breaks." You also said that.

I did state that it's a very easy thing to blend in with traffic from almost any entry point into the pattern.

If approach over the numbers at traffic pattern altitude, at that moment in time I'm on an upwind leg, and can join the downwind at any point. If traffic is midfield downwind, I can extend upwind and fall in behind. If traffic is just turning crosswind at the far end of the field, I can roll right into the downwind, base, and final. I've said nothing but blending with other traffic, and at no time to I cut off anyone or disrupt traffic flow.

Have you seen me say or do otherwise? You have not. You will not. I don't.

Do you find blending with traffic in the pattern to be an act of superior airmanship skills? If so, then you need remedial training. Hopefully you don't.

When entering a left downwind on a midfield 45, one must still blend with traffic. If traffic is already at midfield, one will generally adjust upwind, and fall in behind the traffic, or if traffic is farther upwind, one may fall in ahead of the downwind traffic (especially if it's on an extended downwind, such as just turning from the crosswind leg). No different than adjusting for traffic in the pattern when flying a mid field crosswind, or approaching from overhead.

There is nothing illegal or unconventional about it. It's done regularly. It doesn't reinvent the traffic pattern, it doesn't change a thing. It doesn't disrupt traffic flow. These practices permit seeing and avoiding traffic, which is a requirement at all times, and is the core to safety in the traffic pattern.

Did you actually suggest that another pilot might not understand what's going on because it's not in the practical test standards (PTS)? Seriously?

The other pilot doesn't need to adjust for me. I adjust for him. That's good enough.

Presently I have additional leeway, as I operate under 14 CFR 137.
 
Presently I have additional leeway, as I operate under 14 CFR 137.
§ 137.45 Nonobservance of airport traffic pattern.

Notwithstanding part 91 of this chapter, the pilot in command of an aircraft may deviate from an airport traffic pattern when authorized by the control tower concerned. At an airport without a functioning control tower, the pilot in command may deviate from the traffic pattern if—

(a) Prior coordination is made with the airport management concerned;

 
Did you actually suggest that another pilot might not understand what's going on because it's not in the practical test standards (PTS)? Seriously?
Seriously. Do you have any idea what's being trained out there.
The other pilot doesn't need to adjust for me. I adjust for him. That's good enough.
No, it's not. Dagger Flight 6 didn't adjust for a newbie carnard guy who died in the fire. And they all said, "not their fault". Only sorta true..
I said nothing of superior airmanship. You did. Speak for yourself.

I said nothing of "overhead breaks." You also said that.
Just pre-empting all the usual blather.
 
SIDE TRIP!

Marconi didn't invent radio.

Tesla was the first to get the idea and document in 1892. He didn't patent it until a year after Marconi, however. He did apply for a U.S. patent the year after Marconi's UK patent, and it was granted.

Tesla later demonstrated a radio controlled boat three years before Marconi sent his single "S" character across the Atlantic using radio.

And none of them would have done any of it without Maxwell's work in 1884, and Hertz sending UHF across his lab in 1885-1886 without really knowing what was going on.

Tesla was a bonafide genius, but awful businessperson.

Tesla died penniless in 1943, eight months before the U.S. Supreme court threw out all other radio patents and granted them to Tesla.

All evidence now known today indicates that Tesla was the true Father of Radio, not Marconi.
Yep, Tesla was good, it's hard for some people to think about life as a business with the objective of amassing wealth. Some people want to achieve real objectives, experiences, improvements. Also people **** them over. Westinghouse and Edison both ****ed him in the ass for the love of money. We have come back to those days where we feed the innocent to the evil,; no different from Sandusky today, although he shows the depths of depravity we will tolerate.
 
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Do you have any idea what's being trained out there.

Yes, quite. In fact, I don't train a student to do any differently than I do. A mid field crosswind is perfectly acceptable, which is the premise upon which this thread was started.

A midfield crosswind entry into the traffic pattern violates nothing, is not a safety hazard, and may be one of the safest places to be when entering the pattern.

Notwithstanding part 91 of this chapter, the pilot in command of an aircraft may deviate from an airport traffic pattern when authorized by the control tower concerned. At an airport without a functioning control tower, the pilot in command may deviate from the traffic pattern if—

(a) Prior coordination is made with the airport management concerned;

Where a tower is in operation, it's a very simple process to make the request. It's a rare time they won't grant us what we ask.

For repeat operations from that location, it's always best to meet with the local authority, regardless of whether we're required to do so, or not. Even at uncontrolled fields, we'll always take the time to meet with the airport manager or other personnel, if time permits, especially if we'll be conducting ongoing operations there. In such cases, we're not there to ask permission; only to advise our intent.

If local personnel have a great objection, especially in the case of locals living near the field who'd prefer no one overflies them (especially at low altitudes, etc), we do what we can to observe those requests.

Just pre-empting all the usual blather.

By attributing to me what you said. Perhaps it is best if you speak for yourself, and allow me to do the same.
 
Doug, you sure do have a lot of irons in the fire...so to speak. Do you have to argue with everyone?
 
I don't have to argue with anyone.

The simple fact is that entry into the traffic pattern on a midfield crosswind isn't much different than entering on a 45 to the downwind. It's quite legal, it's quite safe, and it's quite common.

Have you anything to contribute on the topic?
 
The simple fact is that entry into the traffic pattern on a midfield crosswind isn't much different than entering on a 45 to the downwind. It's quite legal, it's quite safe, and it's quite common.
If there were nobody entering on the 45, as it is in Canada where rules require entry to the downwind from the midfield crossover, then I'd agree. Otherwise, I firmly believe based on decades of bad experiences that it does compromise safety. You have airplanes converging on one spot from three directions, and two of them will be belly-up to the other two. That means there's less chance of seeing each other, and one plane is trapped in the middle with nowhere to go if a conflict develops. As far as I'm concerned, the area inside the pattern is a no-man's land where I don't want to be, and I don't think anyone should plan to be.
 
I wonder why when approaching a Class D, the tower says "report mid-field downwind" without instructions or guidance on how to get there :stirpot:
 
I wonder why when approaching a Class D, the tower says "report mid-field downwind" without instructions or guidance on how to get there :stirpot:
So they'll know when to put down the Sports Section and coffee and pick up the binoculars? :dunno:

dtuuri
 
I wonder why when approaching a Class D, the tower says "report mid-field downwind" without instructions or guidance on how to get there :stirpot:
to not forget about

That's because they don't care how we get to that spot. If there's traffic on the way to the downwind then they'll give it and sequence us in. When twr has you report somewhere in the pattern it's for 3 things. It's a point at which he'll probably see you. It's a point to where he can still have time to sequence you. Or he's watching TV and your report will wake him up to clear you to land.
 
Here's a scientific study on the visual limitations of the 'see and avoid' concept. It wraps up with (my em):
Finally, the see-and-avoid concept misleads pilots and controllers by encouraging overconfidence in visual scanning while neglecting its physical and behavioral limitations and mitigation strategies. While visual scanning is necessary to prevent midair collisions, especially of aircraft flying slowly in close proximity and not yet on collision courses, it is not sufficient. Potential mitigation strategies include: 1) pilot and ATC training on physical and behavioral limitations of the see-and-avoid concept; 2) ATC safety alerts and recommendations in all conflict situations; 3) reliable altitude-encoding transponders activated at all times in all aircraft; 4) standard traffic pattern entry, exit, and circuit procedures at all airports; 5) standard communications, and position announcements in the traffic pattern, at all airports; 6) standard procedures for announcing positions and headings in arrival and departure areas, corridors, scenic areas, and other high-density areas; and 7) affordable and reliable collision avoidance technologies in all general aviation aircraft, as the NTSB recommended in 1987.​
View attachment Midair Collision.pdf.

dtuuri
 
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Here's a scientific study on the visual limitations of the 'see and avoid' concept. It wraps up with (my em):
Finally, the see-and-avoid concept misleads pilots and controllers by encouraging overconfidence in visual scanning while neglecting its physical and behavioral limitations and mitigation strategies. While visual scanning is necessary to prevent midair collisions, especially of aircraft flying slowly in close proximity and not yet on collision courses, it is not sufficient. Potential mitigation strategies include: 1) pilot and ATC training on physical and behavioral limitations of the see-and-avoid concept; 2) ATC safety alerts and recommendations in all conflict situations; 3) reliable altitude-encoding transponders activated at all times in all aircraft; 4) standard traffic pattern entry, exit, and circuit procedures at all airports; 5) standard communications, and position announcements in the traffic pattern, at all airports; 6) standard procedures for announcing positions and headings in arrival and departure areas, corridors, scenic areas, and other high-density areas; and 7) affordable and reliable collision avoidance technologies in all general aviation aircraft, as the NTSB recommended in 1987.
Link.

dtuuri

So what would be a non-standard traffic pattern entry. Anything outside a 45 degree into a left downwind?
 
So what would be a non-standard traffic pattern entry. Anything outside a 45 degree into a left downwind?
I don't think anybody can be wrong if they rely on the original elegance of 91.126(b). All this business of flying 500' over the pattern, etc., sounds good in theory, but not so much in practice. Often a ceiling prevents it--then what? Of course, somebody created an 'entry leg' and got it published in the AIM despite it involving a right hand turn, and the Chief Counsel doesn't 'consider' that to be a violation of 91.126(b) (who cares one way or the other, really), so I'm all for making a reasonable effort to comply. For insight, here's a schematic that used to be published on sectional charts back in the day when non-radio equipped traffic prevailed. Although not to scale (see the wind 'T') and from a birdseye view, you can get a feel for generally intended flow.
Old%20pattern.jpg

dtuuri
 
Six pages and you guys make this WAY to difficult.

1. Radio call "ATITPPA"
2. Lean Forward
3. Slip if necessary
4. Land

:lol::lol:
 
I don't think anybody can be wrong if they rely on the original elegance of 91.126(b). All this business of flying 500' over the pattern, etc., sounds good in theory, but not so much in practice. Often a ceiling prevents it--then what? Of course, somebody created an 'entry leg' and got it published in the AIM despite it involving a right hand turn, and the Chief Counsel doesn't 'consider' that to be a violation of 91.126(b) (who cares one way or the other, really), so I'm all for making a reasonable effort to comply. For insight, here's a schematic that used to be published on sectional charts back in the day when non-radio equipped traffic prevailed. Although not to scale (see the wind 'T') and from a birdseye view, you can get a feel for generally intended flow.
dtuuri

While your argument for a required 45 degree entry has some logic for uncontrolled airports it has no logic for controlled airports. As your scientific study suggests, a standard (45 degree) should be made at ALL airports. That's insane. Whoever did this study was obviously not a controller, if they were it wasn't at any airport that works real traffic.

If you were to take any class C or heavy trafficed class D and funnel all the aircraft into a 45 degree entry and only on a left downwind that would be chaos. Take Savannah International (SAV) for instance. I've flown out of there many times. On any given day you can see the gamut of aircraft, from trainers to fighters to airliners. Now lets take all those aircraft and vector them to the 45 left downwind for arrival. You would have a bottleneck of unbelievable proportions! Not to mention the huge amount of fuel and time wasted on the fighters and airliners to maneuver around the airport to get to a 45.

The 45 entry isn't like a SID where everyone is departing the same spot and have relatively the same performance. You can't have a flight of 2 F-16s slow to 90 kts to follow a C-150. This is why the tower folks get paid the big bucks. Because (generally) they think outside the box and have some aircraft (airliners) do a straight in and some (fighters) aircraft do the overhead while some (Cessna) will enter the downwind. This maximizes the amount of traffic the airport can take. This type of sequencing requires tremendous skill on the part of the controller and is the main reason why they have such a high washout rate.

You see pattern entry isn't a simple 45 degree solution that you, the AIM and this scientific study suggests. It's a complex matter that requires communication and having your head on a swivel. If everyone is communicating and looking out for one another then pattern entry isn't that big of a deal.
 
I don't think anybody can be wrong if they rely on the original elegance of 91.126(b). All this business of flying 500' over the pattern, etc., sounds good in theory, but not so much in practice. Often a ceiling prevents it--then what? Of course, somebody created an 'entry leg' and got it published in the AIM despite it involving a right hand turn, and the Chief Counsel doesn't 'consider' that to be a violation of 91.126(b) (who cares one way or the other, really), so I'm all for making a reasonable effort to comply. For insight, here's a schematic that used to be published on sectional charts back in the day when non-radio equipped traffic prevailed. Although not to scale (see the wind 'T') and from a birdseye view, you can get a feel for generally intended flow.

dtuuri

So, if you are approaching from the non pattern side, to enter the downwind on a 45, you circle around the airport ( to your left) until you are on the downwind side?
 
While your argument for a required 45 degree entry has some logic for uncontrolled airports it has no logic for controlled airports. As your scientific study suggests, a standard (45 degree) should be made at ALL airports. That's insane. Whoever did this study was obviously not a controller, if they were it wasn't at any airport that works real traffic.
In the first place, this whole thread is, obviously, only about uncontrolled fields. In the second place, that study did not state that everybody should enter on a 45° that I remember reading, only that traffic patterns should be standardized, including entries. Well, if everybody approaches and enters the established pattern in accordance with 91.126(b), then it's a standard entry procedure regardless of precisely where it occurs. (I can't reload the article for some reason. :confused: )

Whether the author of the study meant to include controlled fields or not, I can't say. If so, I'm pretty sure it would be assumed the controller can direct aircraft anywhere within the 'standard pattern' that's fitting and make exceptions on a case by case basis. Having standard procedures to keep departure paths separated from arrival paths would be prudent controller action would it not?

dtuuri
 
While your argument for a required 45 degree entry has some logic for uncontrolled airports it has no logic for controlled airports. As your scientific study suggests, a standard (45 degree) should be made at ALL airports. That's insane. Whoever did this study was obviously not a controller, if they were it wasn't at any airport that works real traffic.

I can tell you this thread has caused me to reconsider the advice given by my CFI to avoid the midfield crossing strategy (at pilot-controlled airports). If possible, I will avoid the immediate airport area (traffic pattern) and re-enter at TPA at 45*.
 
So, if you are approaching from the non pattern side, to enter the downwind on a 45, you circle around the airport ( to your left) until you are on the downwind side?
You can, as that diagram seems to show. But remember, it isn't to scale. Most often, there's no traffic to force you that far away, so you wind up simply joining the pattern as though you were a departure, turning crosswind beyond the departure end of the runway.

dtuuri
 
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You can, as that diagram seems to show. But remember, it isn't to scale. Most often, there's no traffic to force you that far away, so you wind up simply joining the pattern as though you were a departure, turning crosswind beyond the departure end of the runway.

dtuuri

I don't see a problem with what you are saying, although my preference is to enter an upwind when approaching from the non pattern side. Entering a mid field crosswind, in my opinion, increases the risk of collision.
 
I can tell you this thread has caused me to reconsider the advice given by my CFI to avoid the midfield crossing strategy (at pilot-controlled airports). If possible, I will avoid the immediate airport area (traffic pattern) and re-enter at TPA at 45*.

You shouldn't be concerned about a midfield crossing at a controlled airport. If they have traffic in the patttern they'll instruct you to be at least 500 ft abover the TPA. Then instruct you to follow whomever is on upwind, crosswind, or downwind. If they want you to maneuver north, south, east, west of the field and enter on a 45 they should tell you. When they have traffic they'll lead you by the hand...or at least should.
 
We just had a near mid-air in Taos. Someone coming into the pattern chose a crosswind at the departure end numbers. He heard and saw a Jetprop on the roll as he crossed, but said he would be clear of the departing Jetprop. Unfortunately the Cessna underestimated the speed and rate of climb of the Jetprop and they nearly collided. Lots of words were said, the most relevant of which, "why the hell didn't you cross mid-field?". Cessna driver just said it happened fast and he didn't have the performance to avoid quickly enough.

All I know is ATC always brings me over a large airport mid-field when I'm at low altitude.

I think the best advise I've heard is to not get locked into a rigid set of operations but adapt for the conditions, customs, and geography.
Turning in front of an airplane is bad judgment. Taking off with an airplane on crosswind or upwind is too. Sounds like they were both at fault.

dtuuri
 
We just had a near mid-air in Taos. Someone coming into the pattern chose a crosswind at the departure end numbers. He heard and saw a Jetprop on the roll as he crossed, but said he would be clear of the departing Jetprop. Unfortunately the Cessna underestimated the speed and rate of climb of the Jetprop and they nearly collided. Lots of words were said, the most relevant of which, "why the hell didn't you cross mid-field?". Cessna driver just said it happened fast and he didn't have the performance to avoid quickly enough.

All I know is ATC always brings me over a large airport mid-field when I'm at low altitude.

I think the best advise I've heard is to not get locked into a rigid set of operations but adapt for the conditions, customs, and geography.

If the arriving acft had entered upwind, the pilot could have kept the departing traffic in sight, observed his breaking ground, and crossed over that point if possible or maintained a parallel heading.
 
In the first place, this whole thread is, obviously, only about uncontrolled fields. In the second place, that study did not state that everybody should enter on a 45° that I remember reading, only that traffic patterns should be standardized, including entries. Well, if everybody approaches and enters the established pattern in accordance with 91.126(b), then it's a standard entry procedure regardless of precisely where it occurs. (I can't reload the article for some reason. :confused: )

Whether the author of the study meant to include controlled fields or not, I can't say. If so, I'm pretty sure it would be assumed the controller can direct aircraft anywhere within the 'standard pattern' that's fitting and make exceptions on a case by case basis. Having standard procedures to keep departure paths separated from arrival paths would be prudent controller action would it not?

dtuuri

It was about uncontrolled airports until you brought up your scientific research article with pilot/controller communications and the need for pilots to use at ALL airports a standard pattern. A standard entry is a 45 degree entry as depicted in the AIM. Nothing else just a 45. As my example above states, in the real world that isn't always feasible.

Listen, you've stated several times about we have to adhere to the traffic pattern as dipicted in the AIM and that no one has the authorization to deviate. Of course you didn't reply to my quote from your AC 90-66A so here it is again. "However, it is recognized that other traffic patterns may already be in common use at some airports or that special circumstances or conditions exist that may prevent use of the standard traffic pattern." There, that's the authorization allowing us to deviate from the depicted pattern in the AIM. Also the whole definition of recommended and should. No shalls indicating the requirement to do that pattern.

You've also stated that the overhead is a ad hoc maneuver and not a standard pattern. The overhead is a well known and published procedure in the AIM. The only argument you could possibly come up with (which I'm surprised you didn't) is that it's for aircraft to be on an IFR flight plan. By definition it is for IFR aircraft and it used to be handled the way a visual approach was handled until some smart person realized it's not good to have IFR aircraft barreling into a class D at 400 kts. In the real world once again we aren't always IFR prior to picking up authorization for the overhead. I had a controller (Cecil Field) initiate a request for overhead on me and my little Glasair and I was VFR. Can't tell you how many times I've (approach controller) picked up tactical jets off VR routes and gave them the overhead without them being IFR. Controlled or uncontrolled airport, it's not a dangerous procedure if the pilots actually do it the way it is laid out in the AIM. Yes it's for aircraft that have an operational need to do it but is everything in aviation done as only an operational need? I don't have an operational need to go flying tomorrow but I am, because I can.

I will agree with you that crossing midfield at TPA, at a 90 degree angle is not the safest way to enter a pattern. But here's the thing, if someone does it and doesn't cut me off on downwind I don't care. What if someone is entering the 45 and cuts right in front of you because either they can't see you, they're on the wrong freq, or they're just in a hurry. As I said before, problems arise in the pattern because people don't communicate what they're doing and then don't have a plan on how to sequence themselves into the traffic already in the pattern. Pattern entry is not that big of a deal. Good communication, good eyesight and common sense are far more important.
 
If there were nobody entering on the 45, as it is in Canada where rules require entry to the downwind from the midfield crossover, then I'd agree. Otherwise, I firmly believe based on decades of bad experiences that it does compromise safety. You have airplanes converging on one spot from three directions, and two of them will be belly-up to the other two. That means there's less chance of seeing each other, and one plane is trapped in the middle with nowhere to go if a conflict develops. As far as I'm concerned, the area inside the pattern is a no-man's land where I don't want to be, and I don't think anyone should plan to be.


What of operations that drop jumpers into the middle of the field. Should no one be over the field?

When one enters the downwind on a 45, as often as not the actual intersection with the downwind leg doesn't actually occur at midfield. It may occur closer to the departure end, or closer to the approach end of the runway. It all depends what other traffic is in the pattern. There may already be traffic on crosswind, on downwind, and on base. To fit into that pattern one may join abeam the numbers, rather than farther back, or one may fall in behind the downwind traffic.

This is no different than arriving on a crosswind that passes midfield, or over the numbers, or over the departure end. It's still an entry to the downwind at whatever point it intersects the downwind, and directly over the field is often the safest place to be.

With that in mind, it doesn't matter much if one is entering the downwind from the right or left. The goal is to set up to land and to do it without dinging the airplane or another.

I flew into the Grand Canyon airport for several years, flying tours, ferrying river runners, doing fire patrols, and so forth. GCN used to have multiple patterns for the single runway in use. Right and left down winds would be in use, as well as inner and outer down winds, and high and low down winds. That's a left inner and outer, upper and lower: four down winds on one side, and four on the other, to the same runway, as well as helicopter patterns (multiple patterns) arriving and departing at the same time. No radar. The pattern was often full, with a steady stream of departures, as well. It was one of the busiest single runways in the world.

Fast traffic flew outer patterns, slower traffic flew inner patterns. One might be told to stay high, extend downwind, join farther upwind, or so a number of things, as necessary, to manage traffic. It wasn't uncommon in a pinch to be told to do a 360 for spacing.

The notion of the example traffic pattern as prescribed in the AIM and various other sources is just that: an example, not a cookie cutter rigid form.

Various entries into the pattern doesn't change the nature of the pattern: there's still a downwind, base, and final, and this is true whether one joins the downwind on a 45 or enters it from an overhead midfield crosswind, or from over the numbers. It's the same. The pattern is not demolished, diminished, or destroyed.

I may fly a traffic pattern very close to the runway in one airplane, but much farther away from it in another. The type of aircraft I'm flying and the speed make a difference. Not every pattern is flown the same distance from the runway, and per the AIM, not every pattern is flown at the same altitude. What of the turbine single engine airplane that's slower than other piston aircraft in the pattern, but that's supposed to fly a 1,500' altitude, where the piston airplanes are below, in the same pattern, at 1000'? Is this a wise idea? I think not.

Not too long ago we did some training in a Cessna 180. Our patterns were tight to the runway, perhaps inside what others might do. We hopped from airport to airport, some of which had students dropping in from large flight schools. I noted that many of the students flew big, wide patterns, as one sometimes expects of the students. I might already be in the pattern, and find that the students began flying so wide from the runway on the downwind that I'd lose track of them. Seeing as they were flying the same general rectangular pattern prescribed by the AIM, some here might be inclined to say that they're not harming the essence of flying the traffic pattern, although certainly their actions were distracting and they were hard to see. I might be on a downwind leg, the same leg I'd been flying for the last hour as I went around the pattern, and find the new arrival is on a base leg ahead me and well to my right...because they flew the pattern so wide that they're crossing my path on the base leg. Hardly a good idea, but perfectly acceptable under the rigid square pattern theory. None the less, we have those here who would decry anything else.

I've had traffic on a straight in advise me to land first, while I'm on the downwind. From in close, directly abeam the numbers, I could easily make the numbers, and have, without any disturbing of the arrival of other aircraft. Simple agreement and discussion, and it's done. Conversely, while dropping jumpers, I've entered the downwind at 18,000' in a Caravan and made the numbers without any problem, after putting jumpers out over the field. I've done it with full concurrence with ATC and a clearance, no concerns at all. It made as much sense as going somewhere else to descend, then returning to the field to enter on a 45. In fact, it made more sense.

A week ago while working an active fire only a few miles from an uncontrolled field, we made our returns directly to the airport, over the runway, and onto the downwind at our cruise speed, and retarded the power abeam the numbers for a tight turn to final. Our departure was an immediate turn to the fire. We made good progress with the fire. No structures or homes were lost. We received a thank you from a dozer operator who took several loads over the top of his equipment, when he got in trouble. The fast turns and immediate access to a loading point made all the difference. I'm sure someone might say it's just not proper to have not flown well away from the airport on the downwind side, then made a perfect 45 entry to the downwind, but that wasn't happening, and didn't.

Once during that time I arrived at the runway with a helicopter, and approximately the same time. It was an Army National Guard helicopter with whom we were working. I coordinated staying low with a tight turn to land, and the helicopter followed me in. They only needed fuel; I needed to load and go. I passed them on the downwind, with their concurrence, landed, and they landed behind me on the taxiway. Problem solved. It's just not a big deal. A little courtesy, a little communication, seeing and avoiding, and moving on.

Those who whine about a midfield crosswind or other entries to the traffic pattern (let's call them arrivals, for that's what they are) that blend seamlessly with the flow or potential flow of traffic are the same people who cry that the sky is falling if the world doesn't match their ideal of a cookie-cutter image. For those of us that fly where the rubber meets the road, a little more flexibility goes a long way. So long as it can be done safely, and it can, then we'll keep on doing it that way.

That includes making straight-in approaches to land.
 
"However, it is recognized that other traffic patterns may already be in common use at some airports or that special circumstances or conditions exist that may prevent use of the standard traffic pattern." There, that's the authorization allowing us to deviate from the depicted pattern in the AIM.
That speaks to airport management, not pilots.

You've also stated that the overhead is a ad hoc maneuver and not a standard pattern.
It's not ad-hoc when it's 'established' or 'developed', like here for instance:
Break.JPG


The overhead is a well known and published procedure in the AIM.
From the AIM (my em):
5-4-27. Overhead Approach Maneuver

a. Pilots operating in accordance with an IFR flight plan in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) may request ATC authorization for an overhead maneuver. An overhead maneuver is not an instrument approach procedure. Overhead maneuver patterns are developed at airports where aircraft have an operational need to conduct the maneuver. An aircraft conducting an overhead maneuver is considered to be VFR and the IFR flight plan is cancelled when the aircraft reaches the initial point on the initial approach portion of the maneuver. (See FIG 5-4-30.) The existence of a standard overhead maneuver pattern does not eliminate the possible requirement for an aircraft to conform to conventional rectangular patterns if an overhead maneuver cannot be approved.
Pilots cannot 'develop' and 'approve' ad-hoc patterns. Someone else must approve them.

dtuuri
 
That speaks to airport management, not pilots.


It's not ad-hoc when it's 'established' or 'developed', like here for instance:

From the AIM (my em):
5-4-27. Overhead Approach Maneuver

a. Pilots operating in accordance with an IFR flight plan in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) may request ATC authorization for an overhead maneuver. An overhead maneuver is not an instrument approach procedure. Overhead maneuver patterns are developed at airports where aircraft have an operational need to conduct the maneuver. An aircraft conducting an overhead maneuver is considered to be VFR and the IFR flight plan is cancelled when the aircraft reaches the initial point on the initial approach portion of the maneuver. (See FIG 5-4-30.) The existence of a standard overhead maneuver pattern does not eliminate the possible requirement for an aircraft to conform to conventional rectangular patterns if an overhead maneuver cannot be approved.
Pilots cannot 'develop' and 'approve' ad-hoc patterns. Someone else must approve them.

dtuuri

Oh please now you're really reaching for it. Do you really think when the jet teams come into an uncontrolled airport owned by the city that the city even knows what an overhead is. I guess next time I see some F-16s arriving doing the break I should stop them and say that was completely illegal because the city hasn't established an overhead here. The approval for the overhead as stated above is approval from ATC. They don't approve anything (VFR) I'm doing at an uncontrolled airfield.

Your inclusion of a diagram of the overhead just shows how little you know about military airfields. Not all airfields have a diagram depicting it. Out of the three fields I worked at not a single one had a depiction of the overhead. You know why? Because it's already depicted in the AIM! Some airfields publish altitudes for it and some don't. That doesn't mean they don't have an overhead. The controllers will give them that info anyway.

The exception as stated a common procedure. Well I'm sure at some small airports that have a bunch of RVs it's pretty common to come in for the overhead.

Also it's totally subjective as too what "special circumstances or conditions" would allow someone to deviate from the pattern. That leaves the door open for the pilot to come up with a myriad of reasons as to why they made their pattern decision. Anything you say to refute that would just be an opinion and not fact. 91.3 The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority, as to the operation of that aircraft.

When it comes down to it and what you fail to grasp from what all of us are trying to tell you, is that the AIM and the AC are not regulatory. The only thing regulatory in this case is what's in the FARs. Once again:
Shall- the procedure or practice is mandatory
Should- The procedure or practice is RECOMMENDED.

You know what I find hard to believe? You have a big problem with some guy entering the pattern midfield at a 90 degree angle but no problem for someone doing a straight in, which would be a 90 degree angle for someone on base?
 
Pilots cannot 'develop' and 'approve' ad-hoc patterns. Someone else must approve them.

Absolutely they can at uncontrolled locations.

You quoted a statement from the AIM in reference to IFR operations.

At controlled locations, it's a simple matter of making the request with the tower. After that the discussion is over.

An arrival at midfield on a crosswind is not an ad-hoc pattern, however, nor is it a development of a new pattern. It's simply flying a crosswind leg to the downwind. It's a normal traffic pattern. Not a big deal. The sky is not falling.

Arriving overhead is no different. It's not a new pattern. It's not a development of a pattern. It's simply arriving in the traffic pattern where one adjusts to whatever's using it at the time. No big deal.
 
•​
An alternate method is to enter on a midfield
crosswind at pattern altitude, then turn downwind
(see Figure 10). This technique should not be used if
the pattern is busy. Give way to aircraft on the
preferred 45-degree entry and to aircraft already

established on downwind. AOPA ASF

See, common sense sometimes does prevail. This is becoming the never ending thread.
 
I wonder why when approaching a Class D, the tower says "report mid-field downwind" without instructions or guidance on how to get there :stirpot:
I don't believe I have ever been given those instructions unless it was clear that I was entering the downwind from that side of the field. For instance, the typical report midfield would be on an option right pattern. If approaching the airport, straight in or left/right base would be expected. I can't recall ever getting a midfield request.
I do recall hearing "Negative Ghostrider. The pattern is full." a few times. The last was with Penny Benjamin.
 
Interested parties can find the requirements for establishing airports and traffic patterns in Part 157. Note the 'Traffic Pattern' includes the entire area within 5 miles.

Changes to the pattern go in Block B, FAA Form 7480-1. A full description must be entered on the reverse side.

dtuuri
 
Out of the three fields I worked at not a single one had a depiction of the overhead. You know why?
Lemmee guess. You were in charge!
"AFI 13-204V3_ANGSUP_I 20 May 2011

9.7. Protection of 360 Overhead Pattern. Locations that use the overhead pattern must develop local procedures and coordinate ATC/aircrew requirements to protect the overhead pattern. Procedures and coordination requirements must be published in an LOP and AOI."

dtuuri
 
Interested parties can find the requirements for establishing airports and traffic patterns in Part 157. Note the 'Traffic Pattern' includes the entire area within 5 miles.

What the regulation states is:"Traffic pattern means the traffic flow that is prescribed for aircraft landing or taking off from an airport, including departure and arrival procedures utilized within a 5-mile radius of the airport for ingress, egress, and noise abatement."

Part 157 is not an operating regulation, and you conveniently left out some important references, didn't you?

Part 157 defines a public use airport as "
available for use by the general public without a requirement for prior approval of the owner or operator
."

No need to get with the owner to hammer out or get drilled on the traffic pattern.

If the airport owner wants to formally establish requirements to enter the traffic pattern or to modify the pattern that the operator has previously established with the FAA, then the operator must do so using Part 157.

This requirement is not incumbent on someone flying into the airport, particularly a public use airport.

A midfield crosswind or arrival over the numbers to enter the downwind, base, or final does not alter the traffic pattern.

While occasionally a reference may be found for an airport which directs that no patterns be flown on one side of the field due to terrain, hazards, local requirements such as noise abatement and so forth, and while some fields do strongly suggest not overflying the field while jump operations are taking place, you really don't find AFD or other references prohibiting a midfield crosswind or other pattern entries. You won't, either.

If it's not expressly prohibited by the regulation, it's allowed. The regulation prescribes left turns. Not entry and exit points to the traffic pattern. Any operator of an airfield wanting to extend that condition must seek relief through the regulation, and cannot simply invent their own regulation. This can be addressed through Part 157, aside from the exceptions noted in 157.1.

Nice try, though.
 
Lemmee guess. You were in charge!
"AFI 13-204V3_ANGSUP_I 20 May 2011

9.7. Protection of 360 Overhead Pattern. Locations that use the overhead pattern must develop local procedures and coordinate ATC/aircrew requirements to protect the overhead pattern. Procedures and coordination requirements must be published in an LOP and AOI."
dtuuri

Hilarious! As if an Air Force ANG reg applies to everywhere huh? If you'll read from earlier I said depiction (picture). You brought up a picture as if all airports that have an overhead must be have a diagram describing it. There are plenty of airports in the AFD/IFR Sup that don't even mention having an overhead yet one exists. Didn't say anything about a procedure or coordination not being in our SOP or Airfield Ops manual not that you've ever seen those things. We (USMC) do actually mirror this Air Force reg and have a description in OUR publications. I will say I have seen diagrams depicting our overhead but they were enviromental impact studies that we filed away. Nothing available to the common pilot/controller.

Nice try. :)
 
Reading this thread reaffirms my conclusion that it's best to cicle wide and come straight in...:rolleyes2::nonod:
 
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