TPA +800 or +1000?

AuntPeggy

AuntPeggy

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I got into a conversation last night with Hubby about TPA at untowered airports. It seems as though many airports have a published TPA of ~ elevation + 800 feet and others are ~ elevation + 1000 feet.

Is there a rule of thumb to decide (before looking it up in the AFD) which is more likely to be the TPA of an airport?

If you don't know for sure, would you opt for elevation + 900 ft?
 
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As you note, they vary, so the only real way to KNOW is to look it up. I wish the IFR plates would put the TPA on them, but the assumption is that if you are using the plate for real there's nobody in the pattern, and if you aren't in those kind of conditions you can be bothered to look it up.
 
The AIM 4-3-3 states that traffic patterns for "propeller driven aircraft generally extend from 600 feet to 1,500 feet AGL..." and the accompanying diagram notes that "1,000 AGL is recommended unless established otherwise..."

The AIM is advisory, of course, but good advice is good for all. :yesnod:
 
I think JYO uses 800 b/c otherwise you'd bump too close to Class B. Field elevation 389, add a thousand and you have lots of oops.
 
AIM 4-3-3 makes a fairly casual reference in the caption to figure 4-3-2:
...Enter pattern in level flight, abeam the midpoint of the runway, at pattern altitude. (1,000' AGL is recommended pattern altitude unless established otherwise. . .)
​
I don't know if there's a more "official" sounding quotation somewhere else.
-harry
 
From what I've seen 1000' seems the most common. I usually try to check the AFD to verify this.
 
What Pete and Dan said... 1000' TPA
 
I tend to just guess visually -- not usually the best practice -- as I tend to be way lower and tighter than some others.
 
jesse said:
I tend to just guess visually -- not usually the best practice -- as I tend to be way lower and tighter than some others.
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Sometimes you have to, but with enough experience a pilot should be able to know how high you are AGL +/- 150' or so -- especially at a familiar field.
 
dmccormack said:
Sometimes you have to, but with enough experience a pilot should be able to know how high you are AGL +/- 150' or so -- especially at a familiar field.
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Oh sure, what I mean, is that I'd rather be tighter and lower in the slower airplanes I fly so I tend to just do that visually without thought to the actual TPA -- which works at some airports -- and not some others :)
 
jesse said:
Oh sure, what I mean, is that I'd rather be tighter and lower in the slower airplanes I fly so I tend to just do that visually without thought to the actual TPA -- which works at some airports -- and not some others :)
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Hear ya-- I barely reach 500' AGL before I'm abeam the numbers on any day over 60 degrees.

:D
 
800'... 1000'.... meh.. Who can hold altitude within 200' anyways!? ;)

I usually shoot for 900-1000'.
 
AC 91-66 echoes the AIM in recommending 1000 above field elevation for light planes in the absence of an A/FD-published TPA. It also recommends 1500 for "heavy/jet" aircraft.

I would point out that when I learned to fly, 800 was the default value, but the FAA changed that a few decades ago.
 
dmccormack said:
Hear ya-- I barely reach 500' AGL before I'm abeam the numbers on any day over 60 degrees.

:D
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Technically, you're supposed to stay on the upwind until you are high enough that you will reach pattern altitude by the time you turn downwind. Practically as you've found, with an anemic climber like a 65 HP Champ (or Porterfield) on a warm day that could make the downwind a cross country trip so one often ends up reaching TPA about the time you pass the numbers on the arrival end of the runway.
 
Ron Levy said:
AC 91-66 echoes the AIM in recommending 1000 above field elevation for light planes in the absence of an A/FD-published TPA. It also recommends 1500 for "heavy/jet" aircraft.

I would point out that when I learned to fly, 800 was the default value, but the FAA changed that a few decades ago.
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I suspect that the impetus for raising the default TPA was to decrease the noise in residential areas under the traffic patterns. Most of the airports I've seen with published TPAs below 1000 AGL had some sort of airspace conflict with a higher pattern but some seem to simply be holdovers from another era.
 
gismo said:
Technically, you're supposed to stay on the upwind until you are high enough that you will reach pattern altitude by the time you turn downwind. Practically as you've found, with an anemic climber like a 65 HP Champ (or Porterfield) on a warm day that could make the downwind a cross country trip so one often ends up reaching TPA about the time you pass the numbers on the arrival end of the runway.
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The AIM recommends turning to crosswind "within 300 feet of pattern altitude" (Figure 4-3-2).

I'd be about 5 miles west of the departure end of 26.
 
dmccormack said:
The AIM recommends turning to crosswind "within 300 feet of pattern altitude" (Figure 4-3-2).

I'd be about 5 miles west of the departure end of 26.
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That's what I meant by the "downwind xc" comment.:D

The intent of that recommendation is to make you visible to and able to see other traffic on or entering the downwind. To compensate, look carefully and look often.
 
gismo said:
I suspect that the impetus for raising the default TPA was to decrease the noise in residential areas under the traffic patterns. Most of the airports I've seen with published TPAs below 1000 AGL had some sort of airspace conflict with a higher pattern but some seem to simply be holdovers from another era.
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I thought it was to make it easier to figure out. :D
 
Everskyward said:
I thought it was to make it easier to figure out. :D
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That's the "Old Wives Tale" version I've heard. They raised the TPA to 1000 ft because it is easier to add. But it probably has more to do with being 1000 ft above congested areas.(the adding thing makes more sense!) :smile:

Barb
 
One Short said:
That's the "Old Wives Tale" version I've heard. They raised the TPA to 1000 ft because it is easier to add. But it probably has more to do with being 1000 ft above congested areas.(the adding thing makes more sense!) :smile:

Barb
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Then there's the curious case of 76G where they lowered the TPA from 1000 AGL to 800. That was around the time I was finishing up my private there. At the time someone (who if memory serves was a CFI) told me it was so that folks could enter the pattern and legally land 1 mile and clear of clouds. Being the impudent student pilot I was at the time, I objected that the floor of Class E airspace around 76G is 700 AGL. That turned out to be a highly effective conversation stopper.

I never did find out why they did it. :dunno:
 
gismo said:
Technically, you're supposed to stay on the upwind until you are high enough that you will reach pattern altitude by the time you turn downwind.
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The FAA's textbook recommendation is to turn crosswind when you reach 300 below TPA. See the notes to Fig 4-3-2 in the AIM:
5. If remaining in the traffic pattern, commence turn to crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of pattern altitude
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Ron Levy said:
The FAA's textbook recommendation is to turn crosswind when you reach 300 below TPA. See the notes to Fig 4-3-2 in the AIM:
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See discussion after that comment.

Since the airplane can't be within 300' of pattern altitude in a reasonable time/distance on a warm day, I turn crosswind and then downwind to remain within the pattern boundary.

Since I'm flying slower and lower than regular traffic, it should be no factor.

BTW -- FWQ has no TPA published and MGW is a Class D
 
dmccormack said:
Since the airplane can't be within 300' of pattern altitude in a reasonable time/distance on a warm day, I turn crosswind and then downwind to remain within the pattern boundary.
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It's a recommendation, not a regulation. Do what makes the most safety sense.
BTW -- FWQ has no TPA published
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Then the FAA recommends 1000 AGL.
and MGW is a Class D
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Then tower will tell you what to do if you ask.
 
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