Towered airport without Radar: Who has right of way?

[Insane]

"Why do Cirrus drivers get such disrespect?
I fly an SR20 fairly regularly (it belongs to a friend) and I sometimes feel some negative vibes from other pilots when I discuss it like I am somehow inferior. I've even caught someone rolling their eyes at me. I've had many sarcastic remarks sent my way. Why is there such a disrespect for us? Is it the chute? The fixed gear? The glass panel?"

See the above post by you Insane. I hope you have your answer now.

I am very aware that many pilots do not like RV drivers. I came on here not too long ago and wanted everyone to know that I started in 172's in 2008, built our family hauler in the garage and I am no Bob Hoover. I do not have a college degree and will never make six figures. We are very handy and good at saving money. When the funds allow my family and I try to get out and see our beautiful country. I am very safe and do all I can to be nice and polite to other aviators, no matter what they fly/job title/degree/income/PoA post count. We can learn a lot from each other if we just listen. If you are for real, I can see you being involved in an NTSB report down the road if you don't change your ways. Fly safe.

So you thought you'd take the opportunity to bash Cirrus now?

And as for your comment about being in an NTSB report. I did absolutely nothing wrong and was complying with ATC instructions. And, the tower controller appreciated my efforts to get in quickly. His final words to me?

"Plane B exit at Charlie and contact ground point 2. Thanks for your help".

I fly like I drive. Safe but fast. I am courteous to other drivers/pilots TO A POINT. If they act like dicks and get in my way, then no I am not courteous. This prick deliberately sped up without talking. I did everything by the book. And a question for you: Why did ATC thank me? I'll tell you why. He had two arrivals coming in with a bunch of other traffic behind them and the first guy had decided to slow down to 90 knots 5 miles out and take his sweet time coming in. This was in turn slowing down arrival number two and causing him a headache in sequencing the rest of the traffic. I helped him get two planes down instead of one. Plane A in his 182 heard this Cirrus about to overtake him and decided to play his game directly against the wishes of the tower controller. I know what I did was perfectly acceptable. Yes the "nice" thing would have been to let him go first. I'm not nice. Deal with it but that does not mean I'm a bad pilot.

 

[Velocity173]

You just don't get it. You weren't suppose to be # 1 for the airport. I don't know how many times we can tell you this. Plane A, while might be slower, had the lead and was assigned # 1. You decided to firewall it after hearing the sequence assigned by center. This screwed up the sequence and made more work for ATC that wasn't necessary. Center even told you that you were overtaking plane A by 50 kts. That was a hint to you to slow down because you're following him.

Why did tower thank you? Because he had no idea that you increased your speed to cut in front of plane A.

 

[N801BH]

What airport ??? What day ???..

Still waiting for your answer Mr Insane........

 

[Norman]

Agreed. But they're still annoying. Just like that prius in the left lane going 10 under the speed limit. Sure it's his right to be there, but he is an annoying prick who should get his ridiculous vehicle OUT OF MY WAY.

Same principle.

But you are right. It is their right to be slow and annoying.

That statement speaks volumes about you. It says you are very selfish and don't give a damn about others. Your attitude is either going to result in you being found dead in a pile of smouldering aluminum or wrapped around a tree somewhere. Try not to take anyone else along when you meet your demise.

BTW, your screen name fits you to a tee.

 

[gismo]

Why did tower thank you? Because he had no idea that you increased your speed to cut in front of plane A.

Plus the tower controller was "being nice", unlike our insane pilot.

 

[Palmpilot]

Four pages to discuss which of two discourteous pilots was MORE discourteous!

 

[gismo]

Four pages to discuss which of two discourteous pilots was MORE discourteous!

Are you really surprised?

 

[Palmpilot]

Are you really surprised?

No, but I sure did enjoy the popcorn!

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Too funny.

I'm looking forward to the OP's whiny thread sometime in the near future, after being on the receiving thread of some pilot with his same "it's all about me being first" behavior disorder.

Except next time the other pilot either had a fatter wallet and the faster plane; or had bigger cojones to play chicken with.

 

[N801BH]

Too funny.

I'm looking forward to the OP's whiny thread sometime in the near future, after being on the receiving thread of some pilot with his same "it's all about me being first" behavior disorder.

Except next time the other pilot either had a fatter wallet and the faster plane; or had bigger cojones to play chicken with.

Or he gets into the wake turbulance of a bigger and faster plane racing him to the runway and we NEVER hear from him again.....

 

[N801BH]

No, but I sure did enjoy the popcorn!

Yup.......

Ps... It needs more butter..

 

[Matthew]

Someone needs to start a "Is this pilot a jerk?" thread.

 

[Insane]

Too funny.

I'm looking forward to the OP's whiny thread sometime in the near future, after being on the receiving thread of some pilot with his same "it's all about me being first" behavior disorder.

Except next time the other pilot either had a fatter wallet and the faster plane; or had bigger cojones to play chicken with.

I annoy you evidently. It apparently irks you that I have a fatter wallet, a faster plane and bigger cojones than you.



Now bugger off

 

[N801BH]

I annoy you evidently. It apparently irks you that I have a fatter wallet, a faster plane and bigger cojones than you.



Now bugger off

I am going to go out on a very short limb and predict......


Insane = Smoking Hole....

 

[Brad Z]

I annoy you evidently. It apparently irks you that I have a fatter wallet, a faster plane and bigger cojones than you.



Now bugger off

Thank you for the trolling entertainment. Now please slither back under your bridge.

 

[docmirror]

It was not a total loss. I got to add to my ignore list.

 

[Insane]

Thank you for the trolling entertainment. Now please slither back under your bridge.

Yeah? Well you're ugly AND stoopid!



Now that we've got all those immature insults out of the way let me just say that I got my answers on this thread so we can move on. It has been confirmed that I did nothing wrong and that ATC is ultimately responsible for sequencing. Some individuals here feel that I am "not nice" or "courteous". Whatever. Show me where in the AIM or FARs that it says I have to be nice.

 

[Insane]

It was not a total loss. I got to add to my ignore list.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I annoy you evidently. It apparently irks you that I have a fatter wallet, a faster plane and bigger cojones than you.



Now bugger off

Annoyed .... nah.

Just mildly amused. Your aren't the first ego trip here and won't be the last.

 

[Insane]

I am going to go out on a very short limb and predict......


Insane = Smoking Hole....

And I am NOT going to go out on a limb when I predict...

Ben + ill conceived auto engines in planes = Several Smoking Holes

 

[Insane]

Your aren't the first ego trip here

LEarn to spoke englisch. It is "you're".

But I agree with your statement.

While we're all being very immature and all and calling names and googling pictures of each other here is one I found of you...

 

[Velocity173]

Yeah? Well you're ugly AND stoopid!



Now that we've got all those immature insults out of the way let me just say that I got my answers on this thread so we can move on. It has been confirmed that I did nothing wrong and that ATC is ultimately responsible for sequencing. Some individuals here feel that I am "not nice" or "courteous". Whatever. Show me where in the AIM or FARs that it says I have to be nice.

Sequencing only works with the cooperation of the pilots involved and them acting in a predictable manner. Intentionally speeding up to create a dead tie, is not sequencing.

 

[Insane]

Sequencing only works with the cooperation of the pilots involved and them acting in a predictable manner. Intentionally speeding up to create a dead tie, is not sequencing.

Yes agreed. This is not what I did though. This is what the other pilot did.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Yes agreed. This is not what I did though. This is what the other pilot did.

Then you should probably edit or rewrite your original post, because that's what you said you did, or at least that's how it came across.

No, I'm not jumping on the "attack the FNG" bandwagon, just noting that, that's all.

 

[C182P]

It has been confirmed that I did nothing wrong and that ATC is ultimately responsible for sequencing. Some individuals here feel that I am "not nice" or "courteous". Whatever. Show me where in the AIM or FARs that it says I have to be nice.

If you define right vs wrong as the answer to "Did I violate the FAR/AIM?" then you didn't do anything wrong. Reasonable people have a more expansive interpretation of what is right and wrong in life and based on that, you were both in the wrong (and from your description of things, you were in the wrong first and gave the other pilot an opportunity to be just as wrong where that opportunity didn't have to exist).

 

[docmirror]

If you define right vs wrong as the answer to "Did I violate the FAR/AIM?" then you didn't do anything wrong. Reasonable people have a more expansive interpretation of what is right and wrong in life and based on that, you were both in the wrong (and from your description of things, you were in the wrong first and gave the other pilot an opportunity to be just as wrong where that opportunity didn't have to exist).

Ectually, he admitted to descending in the 'yellow arc' in smooth air, so there is the possible case where he intentionally descended below and passed an aircraft on an established landing path, which I believe is one of those no-nos specifically called out in the 'right-of-way' sections. I'm not going to look it up. :wink2:

 

[ChrisK]

What is the flying analog to "Road Rage" ?

 

[docmirror]

What is the flying analog to "Road Rage" ?

Acro.

 

[denverpilot]

Wow. This got stupid. I repeat, the math doesn't lie. No need mathematically to jocky for position. It's not a race when there's only a minute or two difference. No need to make it personal at all.

 

[bullwinkle]

Yeah? Well you're ugly AND stoopid!



Now that we've got all those immature insults out of the way let me just say that I got my answers on this thread so we can move on. It has been confirmed that I did nothing wrong and that ATC is ultimately responsible for sequencing. Some individuals here feel that I am "not nice" or "courteous". Whatever. Show me where in the AIM or FARs that it says I have to be nice.

You won the air race and totally failed basic human decency.

Yay you.

 

[danhagan]

So how was I impulsive? I was simply flying to the airport and complying with ATC instructions. How was I anti-authority? Again I was complying with ATC instructions.

ATC changed instructions based on you pegging your top speed throughout the approach ... am sure I'll be reading about a Cirrus over-run in the near future. The Calvin and Hobbes cartoon pretty much tells the entire story here.

Well I live in the real world where I use my piloting privileges for real work. Time is money. How was what I did a detriment to safety?

I enjoy flying and run my own business as well. If I can't leave early enough to avoid you're scenario (shave 2 minutes), then I shouldn't have been flying that day. The traffic pattern isn't the place to pour the coals on .... saw your driving comments and imagine school zones are annoying as well to you and you blast through them. It seems the traffic pattern would be a great place to slow down (due to traffic density potential) ... hell, even the heavy iron approaches at 140 knots and not what you were doing.

Ron, I am interested in all viewpoints and welcome discussion and will listen but believe me I don't really care if you don't agree with me and certainly don't need you to validate my decision. Maybe you're a celebrity on this board and the red one and a couple of others but in the real world? Sorry you're just another instructor.

Not even sure how to respond to THAT^

Generally, most people are open to suggetion/technique from those with a billion more hours experience than they have ... guess there are exceptions.

 

[Insane]

You won the air race and totally failed basic human decency.

Yay you.

Yes I won Hahahaha! The sound of resignation in that other guy's voice when he acknowledged he was number two was priceless!




But again, I was CONSISTENT right back from well outside the class delta area. I was going as fast as I could initially at the top of the green arc, then when I established the air was smooth down low into the yellow arc. I did not change my speed once I entered into class delta. This is the important point. As I got closer to the runway I was consistent. The other pilot was not. He is the one who altered his behavior close to the runway.

All of you can jump on me like a bunch of rabid sheep all following each other and blame me but none of you can show that what I did was wrong. Because it was not. The other pilot was a douchebag for altering his behavior based on what he heard and based on his perception that he was going to lose his position in line.

I'd like to see if any of you have any backbone or ability for an independent opinion other than just repeating what all the other monkeys are saying here.

 

[Cruiser]

Yes, if you analyze any kind of situation where you have two queues with a bottleneck and compression down to one queue then back to two queues, the best strategy is to minimize the length of the bottleneck. I am impressed that a DOT somewhere has figured this out. You want to use all the available bandwidth as long as you can.

It is amazing how the huge majority of people don't see that.

?????? You will have to demonstrate this one. What you said above is completely wrong. The time through the bottleneck is controlled by the SLOWEST one in the single lane. What happens in the queue ahead of the bottleneck has no effect.

I suppose by your logic you have no problems with people walking to the front of a line and squeezing in right in front of you?

 

[Insane]

Wow. This got stupid. I repeat, the math doesn't lie. No need mathematically to jocky for position. It's not a race when there's only a minute or two difference. No need to make it personal at all.

It's all about winning and taking calculated risks. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you will make something of your life my friend, instead of being the mediocre "I'm good enough" person that you probably are.

 

[Insane]

?????? You will have to demonstrate this one. What you said above is completely wrong. The time through the bottleneck is controlled by the SLOWEST one in the single lane. What happens in the queue ahead of the bottleneck has no effect.

I suppose by your logic you have no problems with people walking to the front of a line and squeezing in right in front of you?

You are WRONG and I will describe a situation for you:

There is a three lane road connecting two major cities. A car is stalled in the left most lane exactly halfway between the two cities. According to your logic, the entire leftmost lane should be shut down between both cities. Care to rethink your argument?

 

[Cruiser]

You are WRONG and I will describe a situation for you:

There is a three lane road connecting two major cities. A car is stalled in the left most lane exactly halfway between the two cities. According to your logic, the entire leftmost lane should be shut down between both cities. Care to rethink your argument?

Nope, that is not what I said. Care to re-read my statement and rethink your answer?

 

[N801BH]

What airport ??? What day ???..

I am calling bullsiht......

Live atc covers the airport you pulled this off at.... Give us the day and time and we ALL can listen to the true story... Till you cough that info up, I consider you a troll... and we have a spray for that...

Still waiting for the info sir.......

 

[Insane]

Nope, that is not what I said. Care to re-read my statement and rethink your answer?

You said "The time through the bottleneck is controlled by the SLOWEST one in the single lane."

The time through for who? You need to look at the average time through the ENTIRE trip for ALL vehicles. And that average time goes up as the length of the bottleneck goes up. If people start vacating the lane ahead of the bottleneck they have effectively increased the length of the bottleneck. What my example was showing was to point out the boundary conditions where you look at the extremes. If the logic stands that the bottleneck means that what happens in the lane that terminates BEFORE IT TERMINATES is irrelevant which is what you imply, then as I pointed out in my example this means you may as well shut down that lane for 100 miles in both directions which is obviously crazy.

If you're one of those retards who vacates a lane three miles early because you anticipate it being closed up ahead, then you deserve it when I race on by in an empty lane and push in front of you.

 

[Insane]

Still waiting for the info sir.......

Think I fell off the turnip truck yesterday? Why on EARTH would I want to give you and other vindictive individuals here any personal information on me?

What are you smoking up there in Wyoming? Besides mogas fumes that is.

 

[C182P]

Think I fell off the turnip truck yesterday? Why on EARTH would I want to give you and other vindictive individuals here any personal information on me?

Since you're convinced you did nothing wrong, why would you care who knows who you are?