Towered airport without Radar: Who has right of way?

We need better hypothetical stories to pick apart. There were too many inconsistencies with the story telling in the original post. I didn't even bother reading when I realized someone was noodling.

Can't get the details right, don't expect me to play the game.

Next up: A story about a NORDO Champ with 16 full sized human passengers inbound to JFK.
 
None of this would have happened if you just would have maintained your speed when ATC assigned the original sequence. Why all of a sudden when you were assigned number two did you become late for your meeting and firewall it? Perhaps if you would have kept your speed up long ago then you would have been number one. If I'm assigned number two behind a slower aircraft I either maintain or depending on distance slow up. All you did was screw up the sequence by doing something unpredictable and in the process made ATCs unessarily more difficult.
 
EdFred said:
We need better hypothetical stories to pick apart. There were too many inconsistencies with the story telling in the original post. I didn't even bother reading when I realized someone was noodling.

Can't get the details right, don't expect me to play the game.

Next up: A story about a NORDO Champ with 16 full sized human passengers inbound to JFK.
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This situation really did happen. What don't you get so I can explain it better for you? What inconsistencies are there?
 
Velocity173 said:
None of this would have happened if you just would have maintained your speed when ATC assigned the original sequence. Why all of a sudden when you were assigned number two did you become late for your meeting and firewall it?
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Good question. I was already flying at the top of the green arc as I was descending. You never know when you will hit bumps at a low level so I don't like being in the yellow as I go below 3-4000 feet AGL. But as I descended to 2000 ft AGL the air was perfectly smooth so I decided to let it go into the yellow. I was not assigned number two by the center controller. The only thing he said about possible landing order was to tell Plane A shortly before he told him to change to tower frequency along with telling him to expect to be number 1 for the field. I'm not sure why he said that. Perhaps because there was no other traffic going into that airport.
 
No radar, and yet tower knows B is significantly faster than A?

Sorry Charlie, you can't tell that visually from 5 miles away, especially when both planes are heading towards the observer.
 
If nothing else, you operated in such a way to make the controller's job more difficult. That's not cool.

As far as not thinking you did anything wrong...if that were, true, you would not have bothered to post this message.

By the way, the other pilot was advised that he was #1 to the field and ahead of you at that point. I could understand him speeding up as a courtesy to you so you're not held up, since you were gaining on him. Instead you took advantage of the situation and wedged yourself in front of the other pilot.

Frankly, arguing about it on the ground is a waste of time for the reasons you demonstrated.

If you're late to a meeting, buy a faster plane or leave earlier next time. Rudeness has no place in the skies.
 
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I'm curious what each of you were flying?

IMO you jacked this guy pretty good. You left him with the option to try to be slow enough to let you go and hope that he will have a couple of miles of separation with just a few miles for it to take place, or to speed up and let the problem be yours instead of his. I don't blame Pilot A at all for trying to shut the door on you.

With that said, Pilot A is going to have to deal with faster planes arriving the rest of his flying life. You could have been in a plane with a high approach speed without the ability to slow down for him. Or, you could have simply been late for a meeting while knowing that you are paying to feed and support a fast plane thus giving you the option to fly fast and pass obstacles that impede your progress. As for Pilot A I don't think it is reasonable for somebody with a relatively fast plane going along at low power and thinking that this speed is the benchmark everybody else must now fly to in order to have harmony as you describe Pilot A to be doing.

Of course common courtesy and safety have to factor in as well. I'm not reading this in the same way as some of the other folks here are. If the confrontation and series of events didn't bother you, and you didn't know you had screwed up at some level you wouldn't have confessed here in hopes of providing your conscience with some relief. So I'll do it for you. You're forgiven! :D Now venture out and get better at this. Plan better, wake up sooner, and realize that Pilot A spent a lot of time working for the money to spend on his flight. He was in the final stages and the high he got from doing so was likely ruined by your actions. You truly affected something in a negative way that somebody went to great lengths and expense to enjoy. Just saying'.
 
Brad Z said:
By the way, the other pilot was advised that he was #1 to the field and ahead of you at that point. I could understand him speeding up as a courtesy to you so you're not held up, since you were gaining on him. Instead you took advantage of the situation and wedged yourself in front of the other pilot.
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Yup. I fly a slow pattern in most situations. I've been asked to keep my speed up, or my turn early before. In response to being #1 to land, and hearing the #2 plane being faster, my inclination would be to speed up as well and not cause undue delay to the traffic behind me.

Actually, now that I think about it, in my case, I'd prolly advise that the other traffic to go first and I would do a left 360 with approval from the tower ctlr.
 
EdFred said:
No radar, and yet tower knows B is significantly faster than A?

Sorry Charlie, you can't tell that visually from 5 miles away, especially when both planes are heading towards the observer.
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I'm not sure if the tower did not have radar. I was guessing they did not because otherwise why did he let us get so close together? I assumed that perhaps the center controller had communicated with the tower controller. I don't know perhaps someone in ATC can clarify. I don't know for sure.

The tower told me immediately as I checked in to keep my speed up. So he knew at that point in time I was going 50 knots faster which I was because the center controller had just told me that a few seconds earlier. As I said my assumption is that the center controller communicated this to the tower controller but I may be wrong.
 
Insane said:
Ron, I am interested in all viewpoints and welcome discussion and will listen but believe me I don't really care if you don't agree with me and certainly don't need you to validate my decision. Maybe you're a celebrity on this board and the red one and a couple of others but in the real world? Sorry you're just another instructor. :lol:
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Your problem is obvious to everyone but yourself, the above confirms that, and I can't help you if you don't admit you have a problem. Good luck in life -- you're going to need it. I just hope I don't have to read about you later on here.
 
Brad Z said:
By the way, the other pilot was advised that he was #1 to the field and ahead of you at that point. I could understand him speeding up as a courtesy to you so you're not held up, since you were gaining on him.
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Interesting viewpoint, but he sped up after hearing the tower tell ME to keep MY speed up and that I was going to be number 1. So how was that being courteous to me?
 
Jeez.

You've got me agreeing with Ron. That should set off all kinds of alarms. While I'm the usual tin foil hat obstreperous tilter at windmills, not even I would act like this toward another pilot.

Sea kelp.
 
brywd said:
I'm curious what each of you were flying?

IMO you jacked this guy pretty good. You left him with the option to try to be slow enough to let you go and hope that he will have a couple of miles of separation with just a few miles for it to take place, or to speed up and let the problem be yours instead of his. I don't blame Pilot A at all for trying to shut the door on you.

With that said, Pilot A is going to have to deal with faster planes arriving the rest of his flying life. You could have been in a plane with a high approach speed without the ability to slow down for him. Or, you could have simply been late for a meeting while knowing that you are paying to feed and support a fast plane thus giving you the option to fly fast and pass obstacles that impede your progress. As for Pilot A I don't think it is reasonable for somebody with a relatively fast plane going along at low power and thinking that this speed is the benchmark everybody else must now fly to in order to have harmony as you describe Pilot A to be doing.

Of course common courtesy and safety have to factor in as well. I'm not reading this in the same way as some of the other folks here are. If the confrontation and series of events didn't bother you, and you didn't know you had screwed up at some level you wouldn't have confessed here in hopes of providing your conscience with some relief. So I'll do it for you. You're forgiven! :D Now venture out and get better at this. Plan better, wake up sooner, and realize that Pilot A spent a lot of time working for the money to spend on his flight. He was in the final stages and the high he got from doing so was likely ruined by your actions. You truly affected something in a negative way that somebody went to great lengths and expense to enjoy. Just saying'.
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:yes:

Great points. Cannot disagree with what you have to say.
 
Ron Levy said:
Your problem is obvious to everyone but yourself, the above confirms that, and I can't help you if you don't admit you have a problem. Good luck in life -- you're going to need it. I just hope I don't have to read about you later on here.
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What does me telling you that you're not as impressive to me as you think you are, what does this have ANYTHING to do with confirming that I have a problem? Oh, because I am clearly wrong in not recognizing your stature? Wow, you really are that full of yourself? I'm so sorry that I am not impressed.
 
You justify your actions by claiming you were just following instructions. Reminds me of a time a controller told me I was #1 to land while I was in the pattern on the down wind; there was an aircraft about to turn base and there was another on final. By your logic, I should have went straight for the numbers and landed.

The problem is you knew that it was not proper for you to have been told to take the number one landing sequence and rather than tell the controller why that instruction should not be given, you said f-it since it was favorable to you.

The real reason people doubt this story ever happened and that you're just trolling is nobody wants to believe a pilot could be such a douche bag towards another pilot in the air.
 
C182P said:
You justify your actions by claiming you were just following instructions. Reminds me of a time a controller told me I was #1 to land while I was in the pattern on the down wind; there was an aircraft about to turn base and there was another on final. By your logic, I should have went straight for the numbers and landed.
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Nope. There is no comparison between these two scenarios. Neither one of us was in the pattern and a few minutes passed between when the tower told me I was number one and we converged onto final about two miles out. In fact I doubt your story because it makes absolutely no sense that the tower would clear you to land being that far back in the pattern.




C182P said:
The real reason people doubt this story ever happened and that you're just trolling is nobody wants to believe a pilot could be such a douche bag towards another pilot in the air.
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I agree! It does seem amazing that Plane A could be such a douche to try to close the gap. If he had kept going at his snail like pace (which is his right to do), all would have been good. As it was he landed no sooner than if I hadn't been involved. That douchebag decided to speed up without telling anyone.
 
Insane said:
I agree! It does seem amazing that Plane A could be such a douche to try to close the gap. If he had kept going at his snail like pace (which is his right to do), all would have been good. As it was he landed no sooner than if I hadn't been involved. That douchebag decided to speed up without telling anyone.
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preserved.

Buh-bye.
 
Only tangentially related, but it reminded of this exchange I personally witnessed flying around Fargo, ND (KFAR) during my first year or two of flying:

There was a Republic flight coming in from the west and a Northwest flight coming in from the southeast. Controller had been talking to both of them.

Controller: "Well, boys....looks like a dead heat. Who wants to go first?"

Voice: "You can go ahead and let Northwest go first."

Controller: "Thank you Republic xxxx. Northwest nnnn cleared to land Runway 36."

Second voice: "Republic didn't say anything."

True story.
 
Insane said:
I'm also the guy who drives down an empty lane on the highway and pushes in at the end where it closes. So what? I'm busy and slower people who don't seem to care need to just get out of the way. ;)
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Actually, THAT'S the intelligent way to handle lane closures. Even our own MNDOT have figured that out and started posting signs telling drivers to use both lanes until the closure. Otherwise, you're using half the pavement you've paid for.
 
Insane said:
I'm not sure if the tower did not have radar. I was guessing they did not because otherwise why did he let us get so close together? I assumed that perhaps the center controller had communicated with the tower controller. I don't know perhaps someone in ATC can clarify. I don't know for sure.

The tower told me immediately as I checked in to keep my speed up. So he knew at that point in time I was going 50 knots faster which I was because the center controller had just told me that a few seconds earlier. As I said my assumption is that the center controller communicated this to the tower controller but I may be wrong.
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Radar or lack of radar has nothing to do with letting you get so close. Separation depends on type airspace, type aircraft and VFR/IFR. Sounds like you both were VFR going into a Class D and tower was using the radar to help with sequencing. There is no separation other than runway sep in that case. See and avoid.
 
Insane said:
Interesting viewpoint, but he sped up after hearing the tower tell ME to keep MY speed up and that I was going to be number 1. So how was that being courteous to me?
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Nobody said it was -- the other pilot merely repaid discourtesy with discourtesy. As everyone has said, you both behaved inappropriately and both demonstrated lack of courtesy. And remember that in a land where "an eye for an eye" is the law, everyone ends up blind.
 
"Why do Cirrus drivers get such disrespect?
I fly an SR20 fairly regularly (it belongs to a friend) and I sometimes feel some negative vibes from other pilots when I discuss it like I am somehow inferior. I've even caught someone rolling their eyes at me. I've had many sarcastic remarks sent my way. Why is there such a disrespect for us? Is it the chute? The fixed gear? The glass panel?"

See the above post by you Insane. I hope you have your answer now.

I am very aware that many pilots do not like RV drivers. I came on here not too long ago and wanted everyone to know that I started in 172's in 2008, built our family hauler in the garage and I am no Bob Hoover. I do not have a college degree and will never make six figures. We are very handy and good at saving money. When the funds allow my family and I try to get out and see our beautiful country. I am very safe and do all I can to be nice and polite to other aviators, no matter what they fly/job title/degree/income/PoA post count. We can learn a lot from each other if we just listen. If you are for real, I can see you being involved in an NTSB report down the road if you don't change your ways. Fly safe.
 
Insane said:
What does me telling you that you're not as impressive to me as you think you are, what does this have ANYTHING to do with confirming that I have a problem? Oh, because I am clearly wrong in not recognizing your stature? Wow, you really are that full of yourself? I'm so sorry that I am not impressed.
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To quote Barbara Billingsley, "Chump don' want no help, chump don't GET da help!"
 
Insane said:
Interesting viewpoint, but he sped up after hearing the tower tell ME to keep MY speed up and that I was going to be number 1. So how was that being courteous to me?
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JOOC, how do you know that the other pilot didn't speed up until advised he was #2? It seems rather likely that he did exactly what Brad suggested, i.e. sped up in an effort to make things easier for YOU. More than anything else, if true, that would explain why the other pilot wasn't very happy to learn that you sped up as well.

I think it would be both interesting and enlightening to hear what was said on the center and tower frequencies. There may be a recording on the internet or you could ask the FAA to pull the tapes for a "teaching moment".

I have been on both sides of this issue many times (not both at the same time) as I fly two vastly different airplanes. One lands at 35 mph with a normal short final speed of 45. I can push that up to 60 (or more if the runway is long) but this requires a full deflection slip close to the runway. In that airplane I often feel the need to keep things moving as best as I can and sometimes that's as simple as making a short approach.

The other has a requirement to remain above 100 KIAS until short final when the speed can drop to somewhere between 70 and 90 Kt depending on weight and other factors. It's not uncommon for me to enter the pattern at 180 KTAS or more if there are no traffic conflicts but when doing that I have to be very careful about overtaking other airplanes.

And even though I'm often in a big hurry (in the faster airplane) my goal when approaching the airport is to find a way to fit in with any existing traffic. At a towered field this is taken care of by ATC pretty much although sometimes I can see a way to make things easier for everyone and may make a request or offer a suggestion (e.g. do you want me to widen out and go behind...), but at an uncontrolled field I find it best to negotiate with the conflicting traffic.

I agree with Ron that being late or any other reason for hurrying should play no part in one's behavior WRT fitting in with other traffic. Personally when advised by ATC that you were #2 and 50 Kt faster I think you should have asked them if you should speed up or slow down rather than making that choice on your own.

Unfortunately with the information you've provided it's really hard to tell which the controller was hoping for when he gave you that news. IMO it's certainly possible that the #2 thing was for situational awareness rather than sequencing but I suspect the opposite and asking the controller which would be best (speed up to get in front or slow down to stay behind) would allow ATC who has a much better understanding of the big picture to make the best choice. I can see how you might have interpreted the #2 and 50 Kt as a suggestion to increase your speed but I also think it's likely you made your choice from a very selfish perspective.
 
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LDJones said:
Only tangentially related, but it reminded of this exchange I personally witnessed flying around Fargo, ND (KFAR) during my first year or two of flying:

There was a Republic flight coming in from the west and a Northwest flight coming in from the southeast. Controller had been talking to both of them.

Controller: "Well, boys....looks like a dead heat. Who wants to go first?"

Voice: "You can go ahead and let Northwest go first."

Controller: "Thank you Republic xxxx. Northwest nnnn cleared to land Runway 36."

Second voice: "Republic didn't say anything."

True story.
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Haha. That's awesome.
 
LDJones said:
Actually, THAT'S the intelligent way to handle lane closures. Even our own MNDOT have figured that out and started posting signs telling drivers to use both lanes until the closure. Otherwise, you're using half the pavement you've paid for.
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IMO that's never going to work here given the "Minnesota Nice" facade. Way too many drivers who are offended by anyone who dares to go faster than they think is appropriate let alone someone who actually "cuts in line". The very notion of simply alternating vehicles when two lanes reduce to one is quite unacceptable to way too many Minnesota drivers.
 
Insane, where did this happen? I am hoping it is a long way from where I fly. I agree that both of you acted poorly.
 
Insane said:
Nope. There is no comparison between these two scenarios. Neither one of us was in the pattern and a few minutes passed between when the tower told me I was number one and we converged onto final about two miles out. In fact I doubt your story because it makes absolutely no sense that the tower would clear you to land being that far back in the pattern.
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The comparison is that in both cases ATC made an instruction in which the pilot obviously knew was inappropriate. My case did happen, I explained that there were two aircraft ahead of me, and ATC quickly rescinded the instruction. Your explanation of events makes it sound like you should have taken similar action (telling ATC that it would be safer to let the other aircraft land first) but instead let your own selfishness take precedence over safety.


I agree! It does seem amazing that Plane A could be such a douche to try to close the gap. If he had kept going at his snail like pace (which is his right to do), all would have been good. As it was he landed no sooner than if I hadn't been involved. That douchebag decided to speed up without telling anyone.
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Indeed, though I was not implying there was only one douche in the scenario. As was already eloquently put:
RichNY said:
Both pilots are morons.
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gismo said:
IMO that's never going to work here given the "Minnesota Nice" facade. Way too many drivers who are offended by anyone who dares to go faster than they think is appropriate let alone someone who actually "cuts in line". The very notion of simply alternating vehicles when two lanes reduce to one is quite unacceptable to way too many Minnesota drivers.
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And the problem is, it is supposed to be alternating cars, not speed up, pass a bunch of people and then jam in. 99% of people can't figure out the proper way to merge in when a lane closes.
 
Insane said:
Okay, so I was Pilot B. Pilot A was very upset with me but let me explain from my point of view and I don't believe I did anything wrong.



I was late for a meeting so was flying to that airport as fast as I could. Fast but not recklessly so, but no this was not a leisurely Sunday afternoon flight. I was not trying to race anybody just trying to get to my destination as quickly as possible. I assumed I was going to be number 2 when I heard all the exchanges and was accepting of that. When ATC told me I was 50 knots faster than Plane A, I will admit I was annoyed. I find it really selfish of some pilots to slow down to LANDING speed five miles out and crawl down the glide slope while the rest of us have to wait. So yes I kept my speed up because I knew the tower controller also doesn't like that and would probably slot me in front. The air was smooth so yes I was flying in the yellow and descending too so had some decent speed going. When I was handed off to the tower, he asked me to keep my speed up and that I would be number 1 now. So I complied and kept my speed up.



As I said when I got close to the field I was VERY surprised to see Plane A had SPED up and was now racing to get in before me. In my opinion, HE was in the wrong. This is exactly like someone on the highway suddenly speeding up to close a gap you're trying to get into. I saw him, called traffic in sight and asked if I was cleared to land. The tower cleared me to land. I then kept it fast as long as I could to help out Plane A. I did nothing wrong. Plane A was very annoyed and he had to "pay for his sins" of having sped up to close to gap but that is his fault and his problem not mine. Yes, he told me on the ground that he had the right of way and that I had pushed in. My point was I had complied with ATC instructions and that once he heard that I was number 1 for the field he made the situation unsafe by trying to race me in.



Maybe I am a moron :D but I did nothing wrong.



At no time was there an unsafe situation. It was a perfect day, smooth air, no other traffic than us. We had each other in sight.
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Doing the time, speed, distance math quickly in my head, I can find no significant time saved by being first in, even if you slowed down by 50 knots.

It's the same silliness as people driving 80 MPH or faster on highways to cross a typical city. They get there only a couple MINUTES sooner, but think they saved a bunch of time.

Was it worth it? Just lining up in trail would have had you on the ground and on your way in an orderly fashion, only SECONDS later, right? Maybe a minute?

Do the math next time. I'm not going to get into the attitude or emotions. The math won't lie.
 
denverpilot said:
Was it worth it? Just lining up in trail would have had you on the ground and on your way in an orderly fashion, only SECONDS later, right? Maybe a minute?
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It would have probably had him on his way sooner, as:

Insane said:
The pilot of Plane A may have had words with the pilot of Plane B on the ground ;)
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That probably took at least a minute.
 
LDJones said:
Actually, THAT'S the intelligent way to handle lane closures. Even our own MNDOT have figured that out and started posting signs telling drivers to use both lanes until the closure. Otherwise, you're using half the pavement you've paid for.
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Yes, if you analyze any kind of situation where you have two queues with a bottleneck and compression down to one queue then back to two queues, the best strategy is to minimize the length of the bottleneck. I am impressed that a DOT somewhere has figured this out. You want to use all the available bandwidth as long as you can.

It is amazing how the huge majority of people don't see that.
 
EdFred said:
And the problem is, it is supposed to be alternating cars, not speed up, pass a bunch of people and then jam in. 99% of people can't figure out the proper way to merge in when a lane closes.
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If the two lanes are full of cars, there's little opportunity to speed up, pass, and jam in. But by pulling into the through lane early drivers set that possibility up. The MNDOT is trying to educate drivers to fill both lanes equally and then alternate and although it makes a lot of sense, that concept goes against popular thinking here.

The real problem is that there's no point prior to the end of one lane that defines the "proper" place to alternate. Some drivers believe this point exists a mile or two before the lane runs out and don't like it whe someone else has a different perspective.

Personally I think that the end of the lane isn't the best place for the merge and if the DOT really wanted to improve things they'd come up with an indicator of some sort (roadside sign, pavement marking etc) for a point far enough before the lane ends to allow merging at speed when things aren't backed up. Then they need to pass a law saying that beyond the mark you cannot pass another car and if you're right next to one the car in the lane running out has to yield to that one car next to him. Then at least there'd be some potential for a common understanding.

The same law and marking would work for exit lanes.
 
LDJones said:
Actually, THAT'S the intelligent way to handle lane closures. Even our own MNDOT have figured that out and started posting signs telling drivers to use both lanes until the closure. Otherwise, you're using half the pavement you've paid for.
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We have multiple instances around the city where a road is two lanes, and then shortly after a redlight, merges down to one lane.

So most sheeple queue up in the lane that remains, and others run up the merge lane and try to squeeze in. Of course, the dudly do-rights won't let them in.

Of course, nobody realizes the real reason the merge is AFTER the light. But no, normally only a single line of cars get thru every light, and traffic bottlenecks behind the light...:mad2:

And let's just forget about the zipper concept of merging...no. :mad2:
 
Insane said:
Nevada
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What airport ??? What day ???..:dunno::dunno:

I am calling bullsiht......

Live atc covers the airport you pulled this off at.... Give us the day and time and we ALL can listen to the true story... Till you cough that info up, I consider you a troll... and we have a spray for that...;)
 

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