Tower: "Take down this number"

NOLA Pilot said:
I did think at this time I wish my CFI was ready to help. He would get in the plane and take off his shoes and slide his seat all the way back. He could not reach the pedals and barley the yoke.

what the F*** and started reach to slide his seat up. I keyed up said going around, full throttle, pulled back and banked left. The stall horn went off and I nosed down and leveled the wings..
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Totally dangerous, irresponsible, and unprofessional on your ex-CFI's behavior. Took his shoes off and slide his seat back. Unbelievable. You should have told his boss or the Chief Instructor.
 
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mscard88 said:
Totally dangerous, irresponsible, and unprofessional on your ex-CFI's behavior. You should have told his boss or the Chief Instructor.
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I think that would be a whole new thread. To many stories about my time with him.
 
I have been trying to post pictures to help explain things, but my phone will not upload them.
 
I got a "I have a phone number, for you advise ready to copy" about six months ago, I was pretty positive I was about to be on the receiving end of a noise complaint because I was doing pattern-work in the Seawind (noisy) with the owner. Turns out the airport just thought it was a cool airplane and wanted it at their open house for a static display. Went better than expected!
 
Arbiter419 said:
I got a "I have a phone number, for you advise ready to copy" about six months ago, I was pretty positive I was about to be on the receiving end of a noise complaint because I was doing pattern-work in the Seawind (noisy) with the owner. Turns out the airport just thought it was a cool airplane and wanted it at their open house for a static display. Went better than expected!
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I got it the first time I flew into Half Moon Bay in IMC, with a fresh instrument ticket.

It turns out that's SOP for canceling IFR if there is no radio contact at the field. Gave me a pretty good scare, though, as I really didn't think I did anything wrong (and, as it turns out, I didn't)....and I really wish Approach had used language other than "I have a phone number for you. Advise when ready to copy." just before the final approach fix.
 
I haven't gotten that call. I was behind someone that might have, though.

During my PP training, inbound from the south, about 10 miles, to a class D. I made the call, "Warrior xxx, 10 south, xx thousand, inbound for the option". Tower told me to "report 2 mile final". A minute later I saw another plane cut in front of us from the east. Tower said, "Warrior xxx, clear to land." I said, "Warrior xxx is still 8 south, are you talking to me?", or similar. A moment of silence as tower probably got out the binoculars. Then, "Unidentified aircraft on final, you you have violated my airspace!!!", all in upper case. That airplane landed, they switched over to ground to continue the whipping, and we made a low pass and got out of there and went back home.
 
Arbiter419 said:
I got a "I have a phone number, for you advise ready to copy" about six months ago, I was pretty positive I was about to be on the receiving end of a noise complaint because I was doing pattern-work in the Seawind (noisy) with the owner. Turns out the airport just thought it was a cool airplane and wanted it at their open house for a static display. Went better than expected!
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The bigger concern when you get those calls if it's preceded or followed by "possible pilot deviation" (the "Brasher warning").
 
In my car one day, my phone rang. "This is [name] at Denver Tower." OMG! What did I do? When could I have busted the Class B?

Turned out his wife bought a 3 flying lesson gift certificate for him and he was calling to arrange his first lesson.
 
bradg33 said:
The bigger concern when you get those calls if it's preceded or followed by "possible pilot deviation" (the "Brasher warning").
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Yep. If you hear the Brasher warning it's not good news. But the opposite isn't necessarily true. It's not automatically good news if you don't hear it.
 
I have always wanted to tell the controller whose call I missed that I was on a land line.


Stingray Don said:
I usually tell the tower I have a number for THEM and let me know when they are ready to copy. That usually throws them off their game enough that they overlook any of my transgressions. :D
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bradg33 said:
The bigger concern when you get those calls if it's preceded or followed by "possible pilot deviation" (the "Brasher warning").
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When did they start calling this the Brasher warning? Who is Brasher? I heard someone use this term in discussion a year or so ago and I had no idea what they were talking about. "Call this number" has been around as long as I can remember. I've also heard "possible pilot deviation" long before I knew it was called a Brasher warning.
 
Same as Everskyward, familiar with those but never heard the term "Brasher warning" in 41 years of flying and controlling (military though).
 
Everskyward said:
When did they start calling this the Brasher warning? Who is Brasher? I heard someone use this term in discussion a year or so ago and I had no idea what they were talking about. "Call this number" has been around as long as I can remember. I've also heard "possible pilot deviation" long before I knew it was called a Brasher warning.
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Mari, you can google the following phrase

7210.632.pdf document library site:faa.gov

to obtain an FAA "order" document with the following page:

Chapter 3. Notifications
3-1. Flight Crew Notification of Suspected Pilot Deviations (PD).
a. When the employee providing air traffic services determines that pilot actions affected the safety
of operations, the employee must report through the MOR process and notify the flight crew as soon as
operationally practical using the following phraseology:
PHRASEOLOGY-
(Aircraft identification) POSSIBLE PILOT DEVIATION, ADVISE YOU CONTACT (facility) AT (telephone
number).
b. The employee reporting the occurrence should notify the front-line manager (or controller-incharge),
operations manager, as appropriate, of the circumstances involved so that they may be
communicated to the pilot upon contacting the facility.
NOTE
This notification, known as the “Brasher Notification,” is intended to provide the involved flight crew with an
opportunity to make note of the occurrence and collect their thoughts for future coordination with Flight
Standards regarding enforcement actions or operator training.
 
Everskyward said:
When did they start calling this the Brasher warning? Who is Brasher? I heard someone use this term in discussion a year or so ago and I had no idea what they were talking about. "Call this number" has been around as long as I can remember. I've also heard "possible pilot deviation" long before I knew it was called a Brasher warning.
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The "Brasher" warning is just like your "Miranda" rights: it's named after the case that established its necessity, Administrator v. Brasher. Generally, Brasher held that failure to give the "possible pilot deviation" notification to a pilot resulted in the FAA waiving the ability to impose a sanction (though there can still be a finding that you violated the regs, just no punishment).
 
I was cleared to land on 16 and a Hughes helicopter (a model 300 as I recall - one of those small jobs used almost exclusively for training) was "cleared to land on taxiway A, remain clear of 16". The Hughes intercepted 16, and and flew over the runway for a hundred yards or so, before turning off onto Alpha. This while my wheels were just on the ground. Tower was doing a good job of yelling at him to turn off the runway.... Then he got the Brasher warning, along with "have your Instructor on the line when you call..." First time I heard that!

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Then he got the Brasher warning, along with "have your Instructor on the line when you call..." First time I heard that!

-Skip
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Sounds like the tower has had previous problems with that flight school and/or it's instructors/students.
 
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bradg33 said:
The "Brasher" warning is just like your "Miranda" rights: it's named after the case that established its necessity, Administrator v. Brasher. Generally, Brasher held that failure to give the "possible pilot deviation" notification to a pilot resulted in the FAA waiving the ability to impose a sanction (though there can still be a finding that you violated the regs, just no punishment).
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I was curious when this took place. Administrator v Brasher was in 1987. That decision was used to defend another case successfully in 2004. But the common use of this terminology is much newer than that. Maybe it's something they teach in college aviation curriculums but I had never heard it until about a year ago, and neither had the person I was discussing the term with, and he's been in aviation for longer than I have.
 
Years ago we had one of our airline's plane cross the active while an F-16 was rolling out at Eglin AFB. Wasn't a close call but the Captain was a DPE in the Atlanta area. He was shaken a bit when he walked into the crew lounge that day. I told him to call the tower and suck up but the supervisor had already recorded/reported it.
 
bradg33 said:
The "Brasher" warning is just like your "Miranda" rights: it's named after the case that established its necessity, Administrator v. Brasher. Generally, Brasher held that failure to give the "possible pilot deviation" notification to a pilot resulted in the FAA waiving the ability to impose a sanction (though there can still be a finding that you violated the regs, just no punishment).
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Thanks for that info. It appears that that case is too early to be in the NTSB's online database. However, while I was looking for it, I found the following article on it:

http://www.aerolegalservices.com/Articles/ATCDeviation.shtml

I also ran across an appeals court case that says the Brasher warning is not required if the pilots don't make contact with ATC:

https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/inter...BEB85257FCD004093E5/$file/09-1108-1217907.pdf
 
It's a "workload permitting" transmission as well. While you may not get it from that controller, it could be given by the next or in some cases, the FBO is notified to have the pilot call the tower. If the call never even gets out, the controller doesn't care about lack of enforcement action by a FSDO. The PD just needs to be logged by the sup.

ATC should use some discretion involved in notifying the pilot also. Example, one time I had an F-18 bust his assigned altitude and blow by a Bonanza. He didn't need a Brasher while he's climbing out trying to navigate. He also doesn't need it on his mind while out in the warning area either. I just had ground notify him when he got back to base.
 
About two weeks ago I was flying IFR. I just got cleared onto the approach and was all set. Then ATC calls me up and says:
"Cessna N##### I have a number for you to copy...." (Pauses a moment) "...if you would like to cancel IFR on the ground, or you cancel with me now."

Definitely made my heart jump a beat.
 
Palmpilot said:
Thanks for that info. It appears that that case is too early to be in the NTSB's online database. However, while I was looking for it, I found the following article on it:

http://www.aerolegalservices.com/Articles/ATCDeviation.shtml

I also ran across an appeals court case that says the Brasher warning is not required if the pilots don't make contact with ATC:

https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/inter...BEB85257FCD004093E5/$file/09-1108-1217907.pdf
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Well, it's hard to give a warning to someone you are not talking to :D.

There are also a few cases in which Brasher warnings were not required even when in communication. for example, in the 1993 DeBack case, the NTSB held a Brasher warning was not required when the pilot took off without a takeoff clearance. (Whether that is still the rule is open to question)
 
Everskyward said:
I was curious when this took place. Administrator v Brasher was in 1987. That decision was used to defend another case successfully in 2004. But the common use of this terminology is much newer than that. Maybe it's something they teach in college aviation curriculums but I had never heard it until about a year ago, and neither had the person I was discussing the term with, and he's been in aviation for longer than I have.
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It's pretty common to name principles after cases in which the principle was decided. @bradg33 mentioned Miranda, another principle named after a case, and there are many others.

The NTSB has used it since the case. Chances are pilots generally didn't know about it by that name until someone mentioned it by name in an online discussion and it caught on. I talk about it in my enforcement seminars, but didn't use the name until just a few years ago when I started seeing it being used more widely.
 
Do not fret about the tower giving you a number, I'm a cfi at a towered airport and literally am given a number every month, for things such as clarification on a procedure or even to get info on our flight school, good communication with your towered field is a healthy thing. Now if u have actually ****ed up they will tell you "possible pilot deviation" or something like that. If they say that over the radio then you may be just getting a violation . I had a near miss this year actually posted it in this thread , they told me to contact tower to let them know what happened
 
overdrive148 said:
A new hire at another FBO on the field recently drove a fuel truck across an active runway...
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yeeeks....

I was flying out of a class D years ago. One of the cargo guys picked up a palate that had been delivered to us by mistake and took it to where it belonged, via the taxiway and crossing one runway. No communications with the tower.......

I have most local towers on speed dial, no need to copy a number. (never know when the radios might quit)
 
overdrive148 said:
A new hire at another FBO on the field recently drove a fuel truck across an active runway...
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Funniest I ever had as a controller was a woman jogging in daylight down runway 19 at Eglin AFB, middle of the day. She (turned out to be a Major) had no idea she was on a runway. WTF was an Eagle for a low approach!
 
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NOLA Pilot said:
Let me say that I know now that my first CFI was not a good match for me. We became "friends" and would talk all the time. I didn't know at the time that I was learning bad hanits, but thats a whole other thread.

This day starts out with wind out of 28 at 13. We took off from 27 and headed back east to the practice area. He asked if i wanted to try some cross wind landings. I said sure and we headed back. At 5 miles out called the tower and asked for a cross wind touch and go. He told me to enter downwind for 18L. Turning base I heard the tower tell another plane he had a skyhawk touch and go on parallel runway.
My CFI said he is going to beat us to the ground as he looked out the window. We discussed wake turbulence and I told him I would touch down after him. I was on final now and crabbing into the wind, so I was facing 18R and my instructor could see the other plane coming in. My instructor said what the hell is he doing? I took a quick glance because I was having trouble keeping center line and didn't want to mess up. His wings where rocking back and forth pretty fast. I did think at this time I wish my CFI was ready to help. He would get in the plane and take off his shoes and slide his seat all the way back. He could not reach the pedals and barley the yoke. I was snapped out of this thought by the other plane saying he is going around. Tower said fly runway heading. My CFI was still watching him and he said this guy is crazy. He drifted off runway and was over the grass inbetween the runways. Tower again said fly runway heading. Tower then called me, but only heard my call sign because instructor said what the F*** and started reach to slide his seat up. I keyed up said going around, full throttle, pulled back and banked left. The stall horn went off and I nosed down and leveled the wings. CFI just got seat back right and I was headed back east. I reached to start taking out flaps because I had a positive rate of climb. My CFI said NO! Lets get in the air more. Tower called and asked if we where good and I didn't answer because I was to worried about flying us over the t hangers and sailboats behind that. My CFI called back and said we was good and asked what the hell was all that about. Tower just asked him if he had a pen and the gave him a number to call. My CFI said that he just lost his license.

Was scared as you can ever be that day. I didn't think we would land that one. Was under 40 ft when I powered up and banked. My CFI said that plane did cross into our runway. I took a few days off and got back in the air.
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Ok...I know this is a late response, but I'm curious:

You were applying wake turbulence avoidance behind a Skyhawk on a parallel runway, and when the traffic ahead started drifting onto your final, you were hoping the CFI would jump in? And then when tower told you to fly runway heading twice you banked left? And who exactly lost his license -- the other pilot, the tower controller, or your CFI?
 
One time I gave the tower controller a phone number for his supervisor to call 'after I land' - that got a couple of seconds of silence before he said 'ready to copy'.
It was my number and I had a request on behalf of a club that wanted a tour of the cab. I didn't have the tower number on my phone.
The pilot flying with me laughed his butt off as we were taxiing in - imagining those first two seconds with the controller looking at the other guys in the cab and going WTF?
 
Harold Rutila said:
Ok...I know this is a late response, but I'm curious:

You were applying wake turbulence avoidance behind a Skyhawk on a parallel runway, and when the traffic ahead started drifting onto your final, you were hoping the CFI would jump in? And then when tower told you to fly runway heading twice you banked left? And who exactly lost his license -- the other pilot, the tower controller, or your CFI?
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No. I was the Skyhawk and it was a Citation coming in on the parallel runway. When I turned base I could see him and knew he would touch down first. My CFI was watching for him because his runway was on my right. He was telling me what he was seeing and he didn't sound happy. I was very new to being a PIC and it did started to get to me. I never wanted him to jump in... I started to wish he was in a position to help if I messed up. I was new at this. The tower told the Citation to fly runway heading not me. I was holding the center pretty good for one of my first crosswind landings. I don't know if the other pilot lost his licence, my CFI said he was going too. I hope this clears some of your questions up.
 
I don't think there is any wake turbulence separation minima between a Citation and a Skyhawk. Both aircraft are considered "small" when it comes to wake.


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midlifeflyer said:
In my car one day, my phone rang. "This is [name] at Denver Tower." OMG! What did I do? When could I have busted the Class B?

Turned out his wife bought a 3 flying lesson gift certificate for him and he was calling to arrange his first lesson.
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The first time I saw 'Department of Justice' on the caller ID I was a bit freaked out until I realized that it was just someone who used his work phone to call for an appointment.
 
NOLA Pilot said:
No. I was the Skyhawk and it was a Citation coming in on the parallel runway. When I turned base I could see him and knew he would touch down first. My CFI was watching for him because his runway was on my right. He was telling me what he was seeing and he didn't sound happy. I was very new to being a PIC and it did started to get to me. I never wanted him to jump in... I started to wish he was in a position to help if I messed up. I was new at this. The tower told the Citation to fly runway heading not me. I was holding the center pretty good for one of my first crosswind landings. I don't know if the other pilot lost his licence, my CFI said he was going too. I hope this clears some of your questions up.
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Even more confusing now. You wrote that the winds were 28 at 13, you were landing on 18L and the Citation on 18R. So not only did you have a pretty good quartering tailwind but the wind would be blowing from you towards the Citation. So not only would wake turbulence not be an issue, I also do not see how the Citation would have drifted towards you. Sounds like a bunch of folks were screwing the pooch that day.
 
MarkZ said:
I don't think there is any wake turbulence separation minima between a Citation and a Skyhawk. Both aircraft are considered "small" when it comes to wake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I didn't know that. I knew a jet was landing next to me and asked if I should avoid the wake. My CFI said when in doubt avoid it, better to be safe then sorry.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Even more confusing now. You wrote that the winds were 28 at 13, you were landing on 18L and the Citation on 18R. So not only did you have a pretty good quartering tailwind but the wind would be blowing from you towards the Citation. So not only would wake turbulence not be an issue, I also do not see how the Citation would have drifted towards you. Sounds like a bunch of folks were screwing the pooch that day.
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I don't think that is was a bunch of folks screwing the pooch. (Funny a **it) I think it was the way I wrote my recollection of events, as you said it didn't make sense. After each lesson I write down notes about what I learened and done that day. I used my notes on the first part of what I wrote because I have went over the go around I did that day so many times that was all I could remember. I am a forever student pilot who started on 08/30/13 I have I think it is 56.2 total hours. I am sorry for the confusion I mixed up the end of one of my notes with the notes from that day. The wind was definitely pushing the plane to the left. I feel like a idiot for making a post without doing the math as I was writing it.
 
NOLA Pilot said:
After each lesson I write down notes about what I learened and done that day.
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You will learn a lot, including how to fix bad habits you've managed to get into, with that method of self-debriefing. Kudos!
 
Wind from the right. Skyhawk (student) was landing on the left. Winds would blow the wake and the Citation towards the Skyhawk.
 
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