To broker or not broker

Irish_Armada

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Irish Armada
That's the question. Our club has been shopping for a "new" plane for the past couple of months and have been striking out for various reasons (not moving fast enough on planes we like, not finding the right plane to pursue a pre-buy often enough, or just generally being a group of dudes with a lot of things going on other than scouring the marketplace for the aircraft that will fit our must-haves for the right price). From your perspective, do you think a buyer broker is a must-have when shopping for a plane, or have you found it to be an unnecessary luxury? I'm just talking about shopping for a basic single-engine GA plane on an average budget, not a Learjet for a recent Powerball winner or anything like that. Any insight would be appreciated, thanks!
 
Have nothing against brokers. How many members in the club,with the internet can't see why the initial research couldn't be done by a member. If everyone is busy who's going to work with the broker?
 
Have nothing against brokers. How many members in the club,with the internet can't see why the initial research couldn't be done by a member. If everyone is busy who's going to work with the broker?

We're all doing our part to do the research online and we've found planes to be sure but it's seemed a bit unorganized and unfocused. We're like kids in a candy store who can't seem to find the checkout lane. I'm wondering if the broker would help with that. OTOH, maybe we just haven't found the right plane yet and it's a matter of time. Thanks for your feedback.
 
I've seen many successful sales consummated between seller and buyer with no broker involved. The prime consideration is having the aircraft evaluated by an IA who is being paid by you. Never use the sellers mechanic for such a transaction. You want to know all possible pitfalls before negotiating price. An appraisal by a competent appraiser should give you a price range to negotiate.

Not slamming brokers because there are those who actually refurbish the equipment before placing it on the market.
 
Committee purchases rarely go well.

That has been my experience too. The fewer people involved the easier the transaction typically is.

I usually don't believe that a broker is necessary when dealing with light piston aircraft, but for a group of people who may not really know what they are looking for and may not have experience buying planes a broker might be the best option.
 
I wouldnt waste the money, get on ASO, barnstormers, trader, ebY, craigs, etc

My experience buying planes from brokers has lead me to NEVER use a broker
 
I don't see any reason to put valuable club funds into a broker's pocket on a simple purchase like this.

Seems to me your club needs a leader instead of a broker.
 
I vote direct buy as well. No broker. someone in the club should have the knowledge on the plane you're looking for.
 
Amanda,

Your rather vague description of what airplane you are looking for to buy might be a symptom of the groups not setting down and figuring it out or worse multiple sub groups pulling for different things. This must be ironed out immediately before you go any farther.

HP vs low, Complex vs simple, Hi wing vs Low wing, 2 seat vs 4 seat, trainer vs cruiser, VFR vs IFR. GPS vs no GPS, Waas vs non waas. Autopilot vs no autopilot. Run out engine or low hours. High time Airframe or low time airframe.

You really need to pound out the details. when you can describe exactly what you want then you will be much closer to zeroing in on that target.

for example:

We want to spend between $40-50k possibly $55k, allowing us to have some money int he fund for first annual type stuff.
It needs to be IFR GPS/waas.
It needs to have at least 2+2 seats (like a cherokee)
or 4 seats like a 172 or Cardinal.
Prefer 180hp but willing to consider 150hp.
Non complex, non high performance, fixed prop.
Prefer Mogas available STC.
We prefer low wing but if the rigth plane came along with high wing we will not rule it out.
It must be an aluminum airframe/wing


Too many cooks spoil the broth.

Timeliness is important.

Come up with the objectives, the must haves, the like to haves and the nice to haves and then appoint one or two people to peruse it with all due diligence.

Give them the power to call and immediate emergency web-meeting so that they can make the deal or better yet give authority to someone who is willing and capable of doing it.

Your group can and should already work out how a deal is to be handled.

Offer based on final inspection, prebuy, who is to do the prebuy and so on, escrow agent to hold the deposit, whether a group member must see the plane first or initiate mechanic remotely to do prebuy.

One last thing, before spending money on a prebuy you need to be clear with the owner if he is willing to bring the plane up to airworthy condition as well as average or better condition if the value/price offered is an average price. That all instruments, systems and subsystems will be in working order or paid by him to bring them up to that condition.

If the guy says no, take it or leave it no matter what comes out of the prebuy walk away as he expects you to spend $### to figure out what his junk is. Ive heard guys paying 3-4 prebuys only to find out that the owners are real dicks about it and won't give an inch.

The aircraft is his aircraft until you buy it but you do not want to buy someones junk. It is up to him to prove to you that the airplane is airwrothy and in at least average condition if that is what your are paying for. If you are paying above average then he needs to bring it up to above average condition. Never take a plane with any failed components without heavily deducting from the average or poor condition price of the offer.

Setup the deal right to begin with or walk away. Or else you become lambs in the slaughter.

If no one in your group has the time, or the group trusts no one then going with a broker could be an option.


That's the question. Our club has been shopping for a "new" plane for the past couple of months and have been striking out for various reasons (not moving fast enough on planes we like, not finding the right plane to pursue a pre-buy often enough, or just generally being a group of dudes with a lot of things going on other than scouring the marketplace for the aircraft that will fit our must-haves for the right price). From your perspective, do you think a buyer broker is a must-have when shopping for a plane, or have you found it to be an unnecessary luxury? I'm just talking about shopping for a basic single-engine GA plane on an average budget, not a Learjet for a recent Powerball winner or anything like that. Any insight would be appreciated, thanks!
 
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If no one in your group has the time, or the group trusts no one then going with a broker could be an option.

If you don't even have the time to shop for a aircraft, how will you find the time to fly it after you buy it??
 
I used a sort-of broker. He was a pilot, he ran an airport, and he had a super-good A/P IA on his staff. They examined the planes until they found one that they could recommend and then negotiated the sale. (As a buyer, I paid for his services, not the seller.)

It worked for me, especially because I was new to aviation, didn't have a clue about what to look for in the log books, nor had any idea about what would be a reasonable price for the plane based on how it was outfitted with instruments and add-ons.
 
Your rather vague description of what airplane you are looking for to buy might be a symptom of the groups not setting down and figuring it out or worse multiple sub groups pulling for different things. This must be ironed out immediately before you go any farther.

Thanks for all the advice Tony. We have figured out what we're looking for -- I was just being vague. We have a $50k max budget and are looking for a Piper Archer 1 or 2, mid-70's or newer model, lower time SMOH, good aesthetics, IFR cert, GPS/AP are desired bonuses, and obviously a plane that's been taken care of. That may be ambitious but it is what it is for now.
 
That's the question. Our club has been shopping for a "new" plane for the past couple of months and have been striking out for various reasons (not moving fast enough on planes we like, not finding the right plane to pursue a pre-buy often enough, or just generally being a group of dudes with a lot of things going on other than scouring the marketplace for the aircraft that will fit our must-haves for the right price). From your perspective, do you think a buyer broker is a must-have when shopping for a plane, or have you found it to be an unnecessary luxury?

Seems like you answered your own question before you even asked it.

As to myself, as a sole owner.... I'd highly recommend a buyer's broker to a newbie buying their first plane... or to anyone who doesn't have the time.
 
.... I'd highly recommend a buyer's broker to a newbie buying their first plane... or to anyone who doesn't have the time.

I'd recommend NOT buying a plane if you don't have the time or knowledge.

Renting is a good step for a student until they build the knowledge and find time required for proper ownership.

Relying on others is a great way to spend TONS of money owning a plane.
 
Chit... of course you ran with what I said out of context and without considering the OP's situation. They are not students and they already own a plane. It's a flying club so it's no surprise each individual in the club lacks the interest a sole owner might.

None-the-less to your point...

Renting is not ownership. Ownership has it's own set of issues. A newbie with time on his/her hands and a checkbook is a much better way to spend a "TON" of money then one using a little intelligence and admitting they don't know everything. I don't act as my own attorney or do my own books. I hire professionals to do this.

A good buyer/broker will more then pay for himself. My first airplane... a 1963 PA28-180 was found by a buyer broker. He had to push it hard on me.... it had ugly paint... and a high time engine. Panel was basic. But he said it would be best for me given my situation even though it was almost $10K below my budget. We paid $23,000 for this airplane in 2004 and when I sold it 2 years later I got $27,000 with virtually nothing invested other then annuals. For that service my buyer's broker got $2000 which included the prebuy and all other expenses.

I didn't use a buyer's broker for the 2 airplanes after that.. but I'm confident if I hadn't on that first plane... I'd be paying alot more attention to a shiny paint job then I would have been to solid mechanical's. And I've seen that time and time again from newbies who jump in the shark pool.
 
Unless you really need the extra few inches in the back seat, I would consider a 180hp Cherokee as well. Plenty nice ones probably could be purchased for $30k or less.

I wouldn't worry so much on how much TLC it has had, if it has not been abused they just are not expensive airplanes to fix and keep.
 
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