Tips for flying to, and in the practice area

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jconway2002

Pre-takeoff checklist
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jconway2002
Well yesterday was my first solo experience in the practice area. I made a right, down wind departure and climbed to 4500 as I headed towards the practice area.

Once the tower approved my frequency change, I switched to 122.75 which is the common frequency used in SoCal. I wasn't exactly sure how to use this frequency, as I couldn't recall ever really using it with my instructor. I heard some chatter on the radio, but it didn't seem like anyone was near me...although I couldn't really tell how close they were since I don't know the area super well.

I spent my time in the practice area pretty much making sure I wasn't going to collide with anyone and then headed back. As I was headed back I saw a plane maybe 1000' lower than me, and a couple miles to my left, heading towards the practice area.

I guess I am just not sure how to be safe out there. Is there more to it than just keeping a good lookout and staying at a VFR altitude?
 
I haven't done a lot of solo flying, but will be out again bright and early tomorrow. You're likely to find people at ANY altitude in a practice area. When I get close I get on 122.75 and ask if there is anyone else in the practice area. I never get a response, but make clearing turns before starting practice maneuvers and keep a sharp eye out anyway. About every 15-20 minutes I'll ask again if there is anyone else in the area, if I remember to.
 
I've heard of some planes asking for "traffic advisories" from norcal approach while they're in the practice area doing their maneuvers. They get assigned a squawk and norcal lets them know of any planes that are close by. You might be able to request the same in socal.
 
1) Head on a swivel. Always.
2) Traffic advisories/flight following if you can get it.
3) For me, Mode S TIS (Garmin 330 displayed on a 430) - probably not in the rental fleet, but if you own, well worth it.
4) Portable traffic detector that lets you know who's around.
5) Ask your local flight school/FBO/CFI about local procedures

Don't rely on ATC or electonics as your only source of info. Head on a swivel, clearing turns always.
 
We use the same freq in our training area. I would not bother asking for other traffic to "report in". That, to me, is about that same as ATITAPA. Inappropriate. I just make a blind call of my location, altitude, and intention and do it every time I majorly change either and periodically if I don't. Clearing turns and eyes out, of course.
 
VFR = see and avoid.

Keep a good lookout and get that situational awareness working.

--

I keep hearing the term "practice area" - do most schools have a designated area for that? It seems like that would lead to a lot of congestion.

When I was soloing, my CFI drew a 25nm circle around the airport, then x'd out a section that overlapped the local Class B and said, "That's your practice area". That gave me a lot of discretion and a lot of space. Is that unusual?
 
When I was working on my Private I used to hate flying to the practice area. I did pretty much what the OP does and that is to fly out there, stay paranoid for about 30 minutes and then fly back to the airport. After a while I was able to get the nerve to do a few maneuvers but I was always extremely nervous.

Now that I have my ticket I avoid the area as much as possible. I go to other areas to practice. Crop dusters are now my biggest concern but they never seem to get above 500 feet.

There was no official designated practice area but rather just an area that the local flight schools like to use. I never once heard anyone make a radio call. I sure wouldn't trust the radio as a tool to keep me safe in the practice area!
 
Tex_Mike said:
There was no official designated practice area but rather just an area that the local flight schools like to use. I never once heard anyone make a radio call. I sure wouldn't trust the radio as a tool to keep me safe in the practice area!
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We have designated "Alert areas" as seen on the Miami Sectional/TAC. That said, these areas are over the Everglades so I do not really see why someone would have to stay in them. There is nothing out there, not even crop-dusters. For me, the designated area, A291D, is convenient and so I go there.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=25.53352868784507,-80.56356592636358&chart=116&zoom=4
 
DaleB said:
I haven't done a lot of solo flying, but will be out again bright and early tomorrow. You're likely to find people at ANY altitude in a practice area. When I get close I get on 122.75 and ask if there is anyone else in the practice area. I never get a response, but make clearing turns before starting practice maneuvers and keep a sharp eye out anyway. About every 15-20 minutes I'll ask again if there is anyone else in the area, if I remember to.
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You will never get a peep out of me on 122.75 because I would not be listening to it - if I'm not on a CTAF or listening to a tower / approach, I tune in 121.5 as indicated by whatever advisory circular it is that says you should listen to 121.5 if possible.

Plus, I would have no clue what you (or anyone else) would consider to be a "practice area" - I've never seen one on the chart.
 
On the NY sectional and TAC it's depicted by an area that says "caution intensive student training"

It's so congested over here, that I don't even think of being in the area without flight following! ...and that's in addition to my G1000 TIS.
 
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See and avoid, the rules of the road.

Out here, every one and their brother blast through the practice are at 2500, 3000, 3500, etc. Makes no sense to me. You'll find me at 2700, 3300, etc.
 
Arbiter419 said:
See and avoid, the rules of the road.

Out here, every one and their brother blast through the practice are at 2500, 3000, 3500, etc. Makes no sense to me. You'll find me at 2700, 3300, etc.
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Where is your practice area? Can I find it on a chart?
 
Arbiter419 said:
Not depicted on any chart. If you'd like, I can draw on a sectional to show you.
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That would explain why I would be blasting through your practice area at a "VFR" altitude (OK, plodding through).

It's wouldn't really help me much to have only one of these hand drawn on my sectional.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You will never get a peep out of me on 122.75 because I would not be listening to it - if I'm not on a CTAF or listening to a tower / approach, I tune in 121.5 as indicated by whatever advisory circular it is that says you should listen to 121.5 if possible.

Plus, I would have no clue what you (or anyone else) would consider to be a "practice area" - I've never seen one on the chart.
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See the link in the post above yours. If you are operating in there, you are supposed to use 122.75 but not sure where the ref for that is (LOL).

I don't use FF in there though I guess you could.
 
If the practice area is so crowed it has its own symbol on the chart, I think I'd practice somewhere else.
 
Matthew said:
If the practice area is so crowed it has its own symbol on the chart, I think I'd practice somewhere else.
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I feel ya but ours is over 150 square miles and is not crowded. Most I think I ever heard out there was myself and three others. Normally only one other. The practice airport, X51, gets more and is a much more congested situation.
 
jconway2002 said:
As I was headed back I saw a plane maybe 1000' lower than me, and a couple miles to my left, heading towards the practice area.
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Sounds like the system worked just as designed.

Is there more to it than just keeping a good lookout and staying at a VFR altitude?
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That's pretty much it. Use of available ATC and other comm-based procedures helps, but you've hit on the heart of it.
 
jconway2002 said:
Well yesterday was my first solo experience in the practice area. I made a right, down wind departure and climbed to 4500 as I headed towards the practice area.

Once the tower approved my frequency change, I switched to 122.75 which is the common frequency used in SoCal. I wasn't exactly sure how to use this frequency, as I couldn't recall ever really using it with my instructor. I heard some chatter on the radio, but it didn't seem like anyone was near me...although I couldn't really tell how close they were since I don't know the area super well.

I spent my time in the practice area pretty much making sure I wasn't going to collide with anyone and then headed back. As I was headed back I saw a plane maybe 1000' lower than me, and a couple miles to my left, heading towards the practice area.

I guess I am just not sure how to be safe out there. Is there more to it than just keeping a good lookout and staying at a VFR altitude?
Click to expand...

AIM 4-3-2(a): "In the interest of reducing tower frequency congestion, pilots are reminded that it is not necessary to request permission to leave tower frequency once outside of Class B, C, and D surface areas."

Pilots and instructors make this mistake all the time, because it is easier for the tower controller to say "Frequency change approved" than it is for him or her to say "You don't need my permission to change frequencies." When the tower comes back with an approval, it seems to validate the request and the unnecessary habit infects everyone on the frequency.

Bob Gardner
 
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I actually didn't ask to leave the frequency, and as far as I can recall, my instructor has never asked either...instead the tower has always said "frequency change approved" on their own.

bobmrg said:
AIM 4-3-2(a): "In the interest of reducing tower frequency congestion, pilots are reminded that it is not necessary to request permission to leave tower frequency once outside of Class B, C, and D surface areas."

Pilots and instructors make this mistake all the time, because it is easier for the tower controller to say "Frequency change approved" than it is for him or her to say "You don't need my permission to change frequencies." When the tower comes back with an approval, it seems to validate the request and the unnecessary habit infects everyone on the frequency.

Bob Gardner
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Hmmmm... Never seen that on a chart before. Are those the areas you use as a "practice area"?
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Yes, there's one north and south of the Class-C over KISP (MacArthur airport).

I shouldn't say it's always crowded in this area but many times it is! The last time I went up to practice, it got pretty crowded which made it difficult to concentrate. I noticed that everyone seems to congregate around 3000ft.

I was going to climb up much higher but I had to get back to the airport so I could go to work. Didn't have enough time to execute plan B.

At one point, NY approach called out traffic to me and advised an immediate turn to the south if I didn't have visual:yikes:

That's when I said F-this! and went home. This was in the "south" practice area on a weekday morning no less:dunno:

I wonder if it's mostly students from Farmingdale State College. They are located on the field at KFRG
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
That would explain why I would be blasting through your practice area at a "VFR" altitude (OK, plodding through).

It's wouldn't really help me much to have only one of these hand drawn on my sectional.
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I get that, but when there are a total of 15 aircraft from two schools out there every single block, it just doesn't make much sense to me. /shrug
 
jconway2002 said:
I actually didn't ask to leave the frequency, and as far as I can recall, my instructor has never asked either...instead the tower has always said "frequency change approved" on their own.
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I understand. Not much you can do about that, in the circumstances. That was an error on the part of the tower controller. The phrase "frequency change approved" does exist in the Air Traffic Control Handbook, but never in the context of a VFR flight crossing an airspace boundary. "Change to advisory frequency approved" is something that you will hear quite often when you cancel flight following.

Bob
 
Yes, there's one north and south of the Class-C over KISP (MacArthur airport""

Not to mention all the flights the practice just south of captured monument, and all seem to head back at the same time calling in at the monument.

Go just north of port Jefferson, usually not too bad there.
 
bobmrg said:
AIM 4-3-2(a): "In the interest of reducing tower frequency congestion, pilots are reminded that it is not necessary to request permission to leave tower frequency once outside of Class B, C, and D surface areas."

Pilots and instructors make this mistake all the time, because it is easier for the tower controller to say "Frequency change approved" than it is for him or her to say "You don't need my permission to change frequencies." When the tower comes back with an approval, it seems to validate the request and the unnecessary habit infects everyone on the frequency.

Bob Gardner
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Thanks for this reminder. This happens all the time at my home drome KFRG and yes, I've fallen victim to the habit also. Time to break myself out of it:wink2:
 
I never (even as a student) understood the concept of a practice area. The idea of sending a bunch of students to the same area (solo, ie; no extra eyes to scan) is a dumb idea in its concept. Sometimes I think it is so students are more likely to find their way back to the airport from a place they've been before. I once came scary close to a KC-135A approaching Plattsburgh, AFB while in the "Practice Area." Burlington Approach saved my bacon that day. Since then I always went somewhere else. There is plenty of other sky available.

Also, how do you stay at a VFR altitude if you are maneuvering, ie; practicing stalls, climbing and descending turns, etc?
 
TommyG said:
Yes, there's one north and south of the Class-C over KISP (MacArthur airport""

Not to mention all the flights the practice just south of captured monument, and all seem to head back at the same time calling in at the monument.

Go just north of port Jefferson, usually not too bad there.
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Thanks, I'll keep that in mind about Port Jefferson.

Did you mean "Captree monument"?
 
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FlySince9 said:
I never (even as a student) understood the concept of a practice area. The idea of sending a bunch of students to the same area (solo, ie; no extra eyes to scan) is a dumb idea in its concept. Sometimes I think it is so students are more likely to find their way back to the airport from a place they've been before. I once came scary close to a KC-135A approaching Plattsburgh, AFB while in the "Practice Area." Burlington Approach saved my bacon that day. Since then I always went somewhere else. There is plenty of other sky available.

Also, how do you stay at a VFR altitude if you are maneuvering, ie; practicing stalls, climbing and descending turns, etc?
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I can't speak for anywhere but where I practice. I've never seen a situation around here where there was "a bunch" of anyone in the same area, unless you count the pattern on a nice day. The first flight school I used had a vaguely defined practice area that was well enough clear of the Class C that you didn't have to worry about it, and it was close to a smaller airport where we did T&G but not so close as to be in or near the pattern. It was also away from the instrument approaches for KOMA. I never knew of an instance when more than one student was flying (one of the reasons they're out of business, I'm sure). The other one has a pretty well defined practice area that's separated into two halves, so if there are 2 or more planes in the area they can more easily stay out of each others' way. Also out of the normal approach & departure routes for KOMA and Offutt AFB.

Everyone is very well aware that transient aircraft know nothing of the practice areas, although most if not all of the local pilots do since most of them probably trained in the same areas. Everyone is also very well aware that one must see and avoid, same as always, and you've got to keep your eyeballs looking outside the cockpit for traffic. I believe the idea of the practice area is to keep much of the maneuvering training & practice out of the well-trodden approach and departure paths, and if someone doesn't show up when they're expected you know where to start looking. The common local practice is to use 122.75 and announce yourself when you're in the area, just as a little added measure of awareness for other student pilots & instructors.
 
Did you mean "Captree monument"?

Thats what I meant, spell check didn't like it though.
Also for touch and go, you can always go BDR. Not sure if they enacted a landing fee yet.
 
TommyG said:
Did you mean "Captree monument"?

Thats what I meant, spell check didn't like it though.
Also for touch and go, you can always go BDR. Not sure if they enacted a landing fee yet.
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yeah I hate the auto correct thing on my ipad:mad2:

For a minute there, I thought we actually captured it:lol:

Yes I like the short hop over to BDR for T&Gs and yes they have a landing fee. ISP used to be free until a few months ago, now they charge also. I forgot how much though.
 
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FlySince9 said:
I never (even as a student) understood the concept of a practice area. The idea of sending a bunch of students to the same area (solo, ie; no extra eyes to scan) is a dumb idea in its concept.

Also, how do you stay at a VFR altitude if you are maneuvering, ie; practicing stalls, climbing and descending turns, etc?
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1. Practice area only helps the locals.
2. VFR hemispheric rules kick in above 3000 AGL and don't apply if maneuvering.
3. Turns around a point and S turns are going to be WAY lower than 3000 AGL. Stalls above 1500 AGL. Clearing turns besides you looking out help other AC spot you.

Funny story: Was on checkide with DPE. Just completed maneuvers about 8 north of the field and was at 1000 AGL over the desert. He was telling me what to setup for next when I told him "standby" ... he asked why and I told him the AC that just reported in NEVER gets their location/altitudes correct and sometimes lands opposite his announced runway. I leveled off, spotted him and watched him go over the top of us about 100 ft up (he was supposed to be at least another 10 north of our location). DPE's instruction that I interrupted was to climb up another 1000 to get ready for stalls:rolleyes: Checkride seemed easier after that and he mentioned it in the debrief after ... "good job under checkride stress and monitoring frequency for "yahoos"" which was his term.
 
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danhagan said:
Funny story: Was on checkide with DPE. Just completed maneuvers about 8 north of the field and was at 1000 AGL over the desert. He was telling me what to setup for next when I told him "standby" ... he asked why and I told him the AC that just reported in NEVER gets their location/altitudes correct and sometimes lands opposite his announced runway. I leveled off, spotted him and watched him go over the top of us about 100 ft up (he was supposed to be at least another 10 north of our location). DPE's instruction that I interrupted was to climb up another 1000 to get ready for stalls:rolleyes:
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So I take it you passed? :wink2:

I will admit I naively followed the norm for my flight school as a PPASEL student, dutifully heading towards the Mahwah Sheraton (A large black glass ziggurat-type building near the NY border) to practice maneuvers. Along with everybody else from KTEB. And KCDW. And N07. And possibly KMMU. :rolleyes:
More than once, I had an instructor say "OK, let's get the [bleep] out of here, before we get killed." It could get thicker out there than in the pattern at KTEB. We'd just go somewhere else. Plenty of room in the NYC "super-Class-B" area, to do low maneuvers away from or under airways, approaches, and controlled airspaces, without crowding no-tower traffic patterns. Not a lot of contiguous space, hence the popularity of that big patch between KTEB and the border, but you don't need a lot of space to do a few maneuvers in a light single trainer. Sure, maneuvering in a smaller box increases the odds of collision, but only if somebody else is in there. One nice thing about a smaller area is that it's easier to scan. And I'll say this- only in that big, wide "official" practice area did I ever have to delay or abort maneuvers because of traffic. Never saw anybody else while threading my way between the KTEB and KCDW airspaces under the B shelf, or at any of the other "pinch points" in that area.

Once I started flying solo XC, I never went back there again, except to fly over the crowd on my way to or from somewhere else. I also started including the "practice maneuvers" in the XC work- a few stalls, slow flight, referencing ground points when turning to change course or in the pattern, etc.

In the end, these days I look at flying this way: either it's all practice- or it's never really practice- when you are in flight. :wink2:
Time permitting, you could do 100 stalls in a row on a long XC, or spend an hour on course at MCA, or whatever. And you can turn that regular breakfast run flight into a serious exercise in ground-ref turns. Looking back on my training, I think I got more out of breaking the routine than following it.
 
Wow...I never realized how crowded practice areas can get. Over where I trained on the Eastern Shore, each instructor has an area he likes to practice in. Keeps people pretty spread out, and I don't think I've ever come close to a plane while practicing. The pattern at Bay Bridge W29 is another story...of course it's untowered (a single 2900 x 50), but we get tons of traffic from time to time. At one point, six people tried to enter the pattern at the same time. I just hung outside and let them sort it out, then sequenced myself in after them.
 
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