Tiedown engine pre-heat

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Mtns2Skies

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Mtns2Skies
If you have a plane on tiedowns far from an electrical outlet, What are the options for engine pre-heat if any?
 
I recently struggled with this (though it worked out that I was going to have electrical available). The best option is going to be a quiet generator with an extended-run fuel tank (so it can run overnight). Most of those are very quiet, so there shouldn't be any issue letting it run on the ramp all night.

http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu2000i
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004BJ5YKM?psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/IPI-Industries-Breeze-Extended-Generator/dp/B002SWCUGK

or

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200623983_200623983
 
Mtns2Skies said:
If you have a plane on tiedowns far from an electrical outlet, What are the options for engine pre-heat if any?
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IMO, the best option is to pay the extra money for a heated hangar.

If you are going to be on the ramp multiple nights, you might ask to have it pulled into a hangar the night before you depart.
 
If you have a plane on tiedowns far from an electrical outlet, What are the options for engine pre-heat if any?

IMO, the best option is to pay the extra money for a heated hangar.

<rant>
This is one of the things that sucks about asking a simple question on the internet.

Me? I take the question at face value. And I would say:
What I did was have the airport come by with their pre-heat truck and give them the $20 fee and be on my way. If your airport doesn't have that option, then either a Red Dragon or one of the other self contained options. Asking why they aren't in a heated hangar or recommending they get a heated hangar wouldn't even cross my mind.

But instead we get some rocket scientist with the incredibly ignorant (or arrogant) "pay the extra money for a heated hangar" response. This aviation Einstein apparently has never been wanting for cash. Or had to make the decision that in order to afford a plane meant having to leave it outside on a tie-down for $100 a month vs. $600 per month for a hangar. Or been at an airport with no heated hangars at all. Or been at an airport with no available heated hangars and waiting list that's about 7 years long. No, this guy has never had to deal with adversity in their entire life so for him, it's a simple solution.

I'm done here. :mad:
</rant>
 
Reiff Turbo XP system powered by a 1000w portable generator. That's what I've settled on after 25 years of trying just about everything else.
 
The old school bush pilots used to bring their oil and battery inside with them.
 
In Anchorage, It's 15 and snowing tonight.
 
Stewartb said:
Reiff Turbo XP system powered by a 1000w portable generator. That's what I've settled on after 25 years of trying just about everything else.
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I'm really getting tempted to outfit our 182 this way. Some earlier posts about how to rig this up with a reasonably quiet genset and just go start the thing and wait a bit, really sounds nice compared to forking around with the propane blast furnace things we're all used to that STILL need electrical power anyway (but significantly less -- we have a genset in the hangar but we've also run it from an inverter plugged into a vehicle parked in front of the hangar).
 
donjohnston said:
If you have a plane on tiedowns far from an electrical outlet, What are the options for engine pre-heat if any?

IMO, the best option is to pay the extra money for a heated hangar.

<rant>
This is one of the things that sucks about asking a simple question on the internet.

Me? I take the question at face value. And I would say:
What I did was have the airport come by with their pre-heat truck and give them the $20 fee and be on my way. If your airport doesn't have that option, then either a Red Dragon or one of the other self contained options. Asking why they aren't in a heated hangar or recommending they get a heated hangar wouldn't even cross my mind.

But instead we get some rocket scientist with the incredibly ignorant (or arrogant) "pay the extra money for a heated hangar" response. This aviation Einstein apparently has never been wanting for cash. Or had to make the decision that in order to afford a plane meant having to leave it outside on a tie-down for $100 a month vs. $600 per month for a hangar. Or been at an airport with no heated hangars at all. Or been at an airport with no available heated hangars and waiting list that's about 7 years long. No, this guy has never had to deal with adversity in their entire life so for him, it's a simple solution.

I'm done here. :mad:
</rant>
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Hope you feel better now. I was clearly expressing an opinion. You chose to insult.

FWIW, hangar space for one night for most GA aircraft is really not that expensive and it IS better for the aircraft. Personally, I respect the advice that Ted has posted here on POA regarding engine preheat. A Red Dragon can actually be more damaging to an engine.

If a hangar is not available, you would be better off with a portable generator and a Tanis/Reiff system than a Red Dragon.

And please read my response before you rant. I never said the OP should pay for the airplane to be in a hangar all month. I suggested asking the FBO to put it in the hangar the night before planned departure.

Have a nice day!
 
Fearless Tower said:
Hope you feel better now. I was clearly expressing an opinion. You chose to insult.

FWIW, hangar space for one night for most GA aircraft is really not that expensive and it IS better for the aircraft. Personally, I respect the advice that Ted has posted here on POA regarding engine preheat. A Red Dragon can actually be more damaging to an engine.

If a hangar is not available, you would be better off with a portable generator and a Tanis/Reiff system than a Red Dragon.

And please read my response before you rant. I never said the OP should pay for the airplane to be in a hangar all month. I suggested asking the FBO to put it in the hangar the night before planned departure.

Have a nice day!
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I think the OP was posing the question from a home basing point of view (a complete assumption on my part). Your suggestion of paying for a heated hangar, I believe, is what set of the tirade and insult response (certainly uncalled for not knowing a person's background). There are many of us (myself included) where hangar space is nonexistent, or is prohibitively far away, or is a substantial price increase to their operations budget. I'm not piggy backing on the insult, but it appears from an outside observation that your suggestion was more for a transient scenario than home basing. If we all had the means/resources, a heated hangar would be the #1 choice.

With all of that said, after considering this dilemma myself, it seems the most reasonable and effective method is an installed preheat system coupled with a portable generator. Yes, there are numerous "bush pilot" techniques, and work arounds, but for reliability and convenience a system designed for that purpose coupled to a power source is the best method to go with. YMMV
 
AWACSEng said:
I think the OP was posing the question from a home basing point of view (a complete assumption on my part). Your suggestion of paying for a heated hangar, I believe, is what set of the tirade and insult response (certainly uncalled for not knowing a person's background). There are many of us (myself included) where hangar space is nonexistent, or is prohibitively far away, or is a substantial price increase to their operations budget. I'm not piggy backing on the insult, but it appears from an outside observation that your suggestion was more for a transient scenario than home basing. If we all had the means/resources, a heated hangar would be the #1 choice.

With all of that said, after considering this dilemma myself, it seems the most reasonable and effective method is an installed preheat system coupled with a portable generator. Yes, there are numerous "bush pilot" techniques, and work arounds, but for reliability and convenience a system designed for that purpose coupled to a power source is the best method to go with. YMMV
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I can see how there might be some confusion. I originally read/assumed the OP was asking about preheat in transient cases.

If he is talking about home base preheating, it still may be worth asking the FBO if they can pull the airplane into a hangar the night before. If you have a good relationship with the FBO, they might even do that for free, depending on how often you need it.

If this is going to be a regular thing, then you really owe it to yourself and your engine to invest in a Tanis/Reif system and a generator. A Red Dragon would be a last resort. And people can criticize me all they want. I'm simply paraphrasing the guidance that Ted has previously posted on the subject.
 
I intentionally didn't clarify because I was curious about all cases. What about when in the deep bush? What about at a large airport when transient? What about at a home base with no FBO but still tied down?

This too was prompted by Ted's engine maintenance guide but more of a how do I then protect my engine (thermally) If I don't have access to electricity?

Now wrong answers here :)
 
I agree, if there is an FBO. My home base (FME) doesn't have one, and for now, the only hangars are occupied to capacity by other tenants.

I have no experience with the red dragon, but it looks too similar to the salamander type heaters used is workshops. More than once, I've seen people use those for preheating a vehicle in cold weather (winters in Alaska and North Dakota, but causing more damage to the vehicle that just starting cold. Things such as melted seals and hoses, to melting paint as well. Not sure I'd take my chances on that type of system with an airplane!

When I do eventually put airplane keys in my pocket, I will be seeking an installed preheat system to meet that requirement.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I intentionally didn't clarify because I was curious about all cases. What about when in the deep bush? What about at a large airport when transient? What about at a home base with no FBO but still tied down?

This too was prompted by Ted's engine maintenance guide but more of a how do I then protect my engine (thermally) If I don't have access to electricity?

Now wrong answers here :)
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If you don't have access to electricity and find yourself in the back country, you may have to resort to techniques and work arounds, no matter how inconvenient they may be. My personal choice of preheating, in order:
1. Heated hangar (rented or FBO or friend's brother's uncle's hangar)
2. Tannis/Reif plugged into shore power
3. Tannis/Reif plugged into portable generator
4. Stay home in bed until spring (lol, I keed)

In the vein of alternate preheat means, I've also heard of using incandescent work lights hung at the bottom of the engine (inside the cowling) and insulated blankets and cowl plugs installed to allow the heat to rise but kept inside the cowling. Of course, this still requires Edison's A/C power.

Without electricity, there was a thread a while ago featuring a camp stove and dryer ducting. Same theory as a red dragon, just not as hight of a heat output. Maybe less chance of damaging the engine? Not very uniform heat, though.
 
AWACSEng said:
I agree, if there is an FBO. My home base (FME) doesn't have one, and for now, the only hangars are occupied to capacity by other tenants.

I have no experience with the red dragon, but it looks too similar to the salamander type heaters used is workshops. More than once, I've seen people use those for preheating a vehicle in cold weather (winters in Alaska and North Dakota, but causing more damage to the vehicle that just starting cold. Things such as melted seals and hoses, to melting paint as well. Not sure I'd take my chances on that type of system with an airplane!

When I do eventually put airplane keys in my pocket, I will be seeking an installed preheat system to meet that requirement.
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If you intend to do this and your aircraft is outside in subzero temps, I'd advise you also get and use a very good quality cowl cover, wing and cabin covers. Good ones are not cheap, and the cheap ones aren't worth it.
 
Tom-D said:
In Anchorage, It's 15 and snowing tonight.
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And my plane's parked outside in it and I'm in Kona!

I've lived in Alaska for 50 years and know some badass old bush pilots and not one has ever taken batteries or oil indoors overnight. The idea that 8 quarts of oil will warm a 300# cold soaked engine is silly.
 
Tom-D said:
If you intend to do this and your aircraft is outside in subzero temps, I'd advise you also get and use a very good quality cowl cover, wing and cabin covers. Good ones are not cheap, and the cheap ones aren't worth it.
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Luckily, my days of sub-zero temps are behind me. Here in the mid-Atlantic, it's cold if it's bellow 30*F. So, if I understand correctly, preheat with cowl plugs in most cases will be sufficient here.
 
Stewartb said:
And my plane's parked outside in it and I'm in Kona!

I've lived in Alaska for 50 years and know some badass old bush pilots and not one has ever taken batteries or oil indoors overnight. The idea that 8 quarts of oil will warm a 300# cold soaked engine is silly.
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Curious to know how many operated a large radial? I've only overnighted in cold temps with the Connie once, we used oil delution so we would not break a starter shaft getting started.
 
Yep. Radial guys re the ones who came up with dilution. And adding MMO, too. That has nothing to do with draining oil. Besides, frosting a cylinder is the real show stopper and adding warm oil to a cold engine will only make that problem worse.

The radials I've seen don't get oil added to the crankcase anyway. They have remote oil tanks.
 
There's a popular heater in Alaska that uses an MSR XGK Expedition stove. Google "Northern Companion" heater. I made a copy using an ammo box and one of several MSR stoves I already owned. It works but you need to be prepared to give it a long time to warm an engine and it needs to be attended since it involves an open flame under your airplane. Strno would be a very bad choice. Little heat and no flame control on e the pot gets hot. Carbureted stoves are better. Electric heaters and portable generators are better yet.
 
I'll clarify a few things and give my thoughts:

1) Red Dragons will heat the cylinders primarily. This will get your engine started, but you can still be really cold in the crankshaft/crankcase area, the oil may still not flow freely, etc. This can cause significant damage. It caused the previous owner of the 310 to spin a bearing on the engine one cold, cold night, ultimately leading to an engine failure over Lake Erie. Fortunately, the other engine ran fine. However, Red Dragons have their place provided that they are used with their limitations in mind (just like most things).

2) Heating engines when you don't have a hangar is difficult, no doubt. This is part of why Red Dragons are popular since they're portable and simple, plus pretty quick. I do think that Stewart's recommendation of a Tanis/Reiff (pick your preference) and a generator is the best option, although it does require that you get to the airport long enough before your flight to have it run an hour or more (depending on how cold it is). Only you know the way that works for you and it depends on your mission, time constraints, etc. If I had to sit with the airplane for an hour or two with the generator, that would be a non-starter for me.

3) I am personally on a schedule most of the time, and I don't have a few hours to wait around. Obviously I will if I have to (like anyone else), but expediency is important. So to that end, if I'm transient and parked outside for a few days, I will typically ask the FBO to put the plane in a heated hangar the night before if they can't plug the plane in. Often you can negotiate on price some, especially if you're buying fuel, there for a few days, etc. As with anything, being nice to the line folks and the people behind the counter will go a long way. If you're based at an airport where you buy fuel, you might be able to work out an agreement with them.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'll clarify a few things and give my thoughts:

1) Red Dragons will heat the cylinders primarily. This will get your engine started, but you can still be really cold in the crankshaft/crankcase area, the oil may still not flow freely, etc. This can cause significant damage. It caused the previous owner of the 310 to spin a bearing on the engine one cold, cold night, ultimately leading to an engine failure over Lake Erie. Fortunately, the other engine ran fine. However, Red Dragons have their place provided that they are used with their limitations in mind (just like most things).

2) Heating engines when you don't have a hangar is difficult, no doubt. This is part of why Red Dragons are popular since they're portable and simple, plus pretty quick. I do think that Stewart's recommendation of a Tanis/Reiff (pick your preference) and a generator is the best option, although it does require that you get to the airport long enough before your flight to have it run an hour or more (depending on how cold it is). Only you know the way that works for you and it depends on your mission, time constraints, etc. If I had to sit with the airplane for an hour or two with the generator, that would be a non-starter for me.

3) I am personally on a schedule most of the time, and I don't have a few hours to wait around. Obviously I will if I have to (like anyone else), but expediency is important. So to that end, if I'm transient and parked outside for a few days, I will typically ask the FBO to put the plane in a heated hangar the night before if they can't plug the plane in. Often you can negotiate on price some, especially if you're buying fuel, there for a few days, etc. As with anything, being nice to the line folks and the people behind the counter will go a long way. If you're based at an airport where you buy fuel, you might be able to work out an agreement with them.
Click to expand...

I assume you carry an extension cord with you when you travel rather than count on the FBO having one? While we have an engine heater on the current airplane, most of my winter trips are to warmer climates so it hasn't been an issue.
 
The problem with the engine heaters is you have to come to the airport the day before and plug the plane in.

I'd say if you are on a tiedown, the redragon is your best bet, but its not going to be easy or perfect.
 
bradg33 said:
I assume you carry an extension cord with you when you travel rather than count on the FBO having one? While we have an engine heater on the current airplane, most of my winter trips are to warmer climates so it hasn't been an issue.
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The 414 doesn't have engine pre-heaters currently. However you are correct, I did always carry my own extension cords. I brought a couple hundred feet worth to Waskaganish, QC (CYKQ) when I had to go there one January. It was -20 out. Brr...
 
coloradobluesky said:
The problem with the engine heaters is you have to come to the airport the day before and plug the plane in.

I'd say if you are on a tiedown, the redragon is your best bet, but its not going to be easy or perfect.
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Do you have one? Is that what you use?

I've had one for 20+ years. Red Dragons suck. They're dangerous and they do a crappy job of preheating an airplane. There are lots of better options.
 
coloradobluesky said:
The problem with the engine heaters is you have to come to the airport the day before and plug the plane in.
Click to expand...

Depends. A lot of times the airport staff will plug it in for you. If you have a hangar, there are also remote options that use the cell phone network (or WiFi) to let you remotely turn them on and off. I've not had an issue with it. Also it depends on where the airport is relative to your house. Now, yes, it would be a pain, but I could go up on my lunch break the day before (or day of) a flight, depending on the time. My last two airports were more or less on the way home, so it was easy to stop on the way home and plug them in.
 
Stewartb said:
And my plane's parked outside in it and I'm in Kona!

I've lived in Alaska for 50 years and know some badass old bush pilots and not one has ever taken batteries or oil indoors overnight. The idea that 8 quarts of oil will warm a 300# cold soaked engine is silly.
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I think the concept of draining oil and bringing it inside came from WWII guys who were trying to warm up tens of gallons of oil vs a few quarts.

It would make a big difference in the time it takes to get the oil up to temp after starting, but you are correct; it doesn't do much to warm the engine itself.
 
Stewartb said:
The radials I've seen don't get oil added to the crankcase anyway. They have remote oil tanks.
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This is true, the hot oil in a tanks will enable that oil to flow to the engine and shorten the warm up time. Oil dilution on the other hand enables the engine to crank easier, But when you do get it started and the oil in the tank is cold, you'll just break the oil pump drive, then you get to change the engine. it is one requires the other.
 
The big radial pilot from the WWII era that used to do my BFRs talked about herman nelsons and other heat makers. And oil dilution, since my Cessna came with it. No mention of oil draining. We talked about it more than once. He was fun to fly with. No shortage of interesting stories from his 40,000+ hours of Alaska piloting.

My mechanic's father tells stories of winter hunting for polar bears in Cubs. He doesn't talk about getting them started as much as keeping temps up while flying low and slow. They came up with some cool ideas for cowl flaps. Those old-timers were tough dudes but they don't act like it was anything special.
 
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;)
Stewartb said:
Yep. Radial guys re the ones who came up with dilution. And adding MMO, too. That has nothing to do with draining oil. Besides, frosting a cylinder is the real show stopper and adding warm oil to a cold engine will only make that problem worse.

The radials I've seen don't get oil added to the crankcase anyway. They have remote oil tanks.
Click to expand...

I've observed some radials with oil tanks that automatically change their oil overnight. These may sometimes be identified by those aircraft with custom N-number scroll embellished sheet cake pans placed under the engines every evening.;)
 
Most of this seems well covered and then some, I will just add that an insulated cowl cover can make a HUGE difference in retaining whatever heat you're pumping in long enough to make use of it.
 
Ughhh..... I remember the days of rolling out 300' of extension cords. It sucked!! I had a small generator that worked but always thought it would 'walk' during the night so I stayed with running the extensions.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The 414 doesn't have engine pre-heaters currently. However you are correct, I did always carry my own extension cords. I brought a couple hundred feet worth to Waskaganish, QC (CYKQ) when I had to go there one January. It was -20 out. Brr...
Click to expand...
Same here. When I had my Baron with Tanis heaters, I carried 2 extension cords in the nose.
 
coloradobluesky said:
The problem with the engine heaters is you have to come to the airport the day before and plug the plane in.

I'd say if you are on a tiedown, the redragon is your best bet, but its not going to be easy or perfect.
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Honest question: what is your airplane and your life worth? Ted has a good point about problems with red dragon preheating.

I always looked at it (making a separate trip out to the airport to plug in the preheaters) as a small price to pay.
 
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