Thoughts on Civil Air Patrol

bflynn

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Brian Flynn
Hey folks - I'd like to ask a question, but I don't want to start a firestorm the way I've sen other CAP thread go...I'd really like to hear the community's thoughts about the Civil Air Patrol. What do they do good and bad and why would you join or not join?

Good/Bad?
Why join/not join?

This is an informal open survey for my own benefit.

If you're a member now, I'm not going to exclude you, but I'd really like to hear the non-CAP pilot community's thoughts.

This is being crossposted to the red, blue and purple boards.

Yes, this if my first post here - I've actually been on AOPA and the purple board for a while, broadening my scope.

Brian
 
What you ask is not possible.

You say you don't want the thread to go like the other recent CAP thread.....but then you ask for the same questions about the ups and downs of the organization.....:dunno:
 
What you ask is not possible.

You say you don't want the thread to go like the other recent CAP thread.....but then you ask for the same questions about the ups and downs of the organization.....:dunno:

This was his first post...

Do a search for the subject thread... It's been covered ...
 
I'm sure there are some very competent and well run CAP Squadrons, and from what I have heard their work with the cadets is outstanding. My experience was with a good old boys club who were all about playing military and refused to realistically train for the mission.
 
Name looks familiar.. do you fly out of TTA?

I contacted the raleigh-wake CAP awhile back and asked a few short and specific questions. I got a canned response. I plan on attending a meeting some time just to see what it is about - but i'm in no hurry to go and don't expect to be blown away...
 
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I do fly from Sanford with WCFC. Yes, this is my first post, I've been not on the blue board for too long.

I know I can search and see other posts. What I'm looking for is something timely. If you've got negative opinions, just say what you don't like, and don't react to anyone else's. If you love the organization, just say that and don't react to anyone else's.

Yes, I know it's hard.

Ultimately the goal is to try to enhance what's good and fix what is broken.

I suppose I should say that I'm a CAP member.
 
Which squadron are you with?

I'm Ren, also a WCFC member

welcome to PoA


Honestly i'd like a straight answer on what hoops a qualified pilot must jump through to fly the CAP aircraft.
 
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responded privately.

My apologies for the thread - I knew there would be past threads, but I didn't expect to find one a month old...that will work for me.

Sorry to bug everyone.
 
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My take on it from the couple of CAP squadrons I visited and considered joining, I understand not all are like this:

There was far too much worrying about uniforms and social rank/standing issues than there was about actual missions or preparedness. It was mostly Walter Mitty types trying to assert authority, I don't have time for all that nonsense.
 
My take on it from the couple of CAP squadrons I visited and considered joining, I understand not all are like this:

There was far too much worrying about uniforms and social rank/standing issues than there was about actual missions or preparedness. It was mostly Walter Mitty types trying to assert authority, I don't have time for all that nonsense.

BTDT?.......me too!! :wink2:
 
Only thing I found more comical along those lines is Coast Guard Aux, OMFG, the seamanship I see there would have trouble overflowing a sink.:rolleyes:

Sadly, you are right. I sat on an investigative board for an incident in Southeast Alaska where some Auxies were towing a disabled boat and had a too short catenary, got out of synch in the swells and sunk the disabled boat, and killed a disabled guy who was trapped in the cabin. They had posted no tow watch "because it was raining and windy"
 
Sadly, you are right. I sat on an investigative board for an incident in Southeast Alaska where some Auxies were towing a disabled boat and had a too short catenary, got out of synch in the swells and sunk the disabled boat, and killed a disabled guy who was trapped in the cabin. They had posted no tow watch "because it was raining and windy"

Yikes
 
Here's a shocker: though they may have other reasons too people mainly join organizations outside of work (and sometimes work too) for social benefits. Church, Boy Sprouts, CAP, even POA ;)

The fact that you get other tangible benefits does not diminish that fact. So you should go into CAP or the CG aux with that mindset unless you like being unhappy.
 
You think pilots are a clusterflop? You should check out boaters.

Well, I know all about that already. I've seen some ridiculous things, and come to the aid of some real dumb boaters.

Like the drunk guys I found adrift 2 miles out in the chesapeake bay 30 minutes before sunset, no radio, lifejackets, lights, cell phone. Their home built speedboat had caught fire and they extinguished it somehow. I towed them back. They actually gave me $200 which was nice of them. In the past I have refused any sum over the approx cost of my fuel burned for tows or other help but I gladly accepted their $$
 
responded privately.


Sorry to bug everyone.

Please do share. I think others like myself are interested and could learn something. Even after attending a meeting and having a short stint as a cadet as a teenager I still honestly have no idea what it takes to be qualified to fly.
 
I'm sure there are some very competent and well run CAP Squadrons, and from what I have heard their work with the cadets is outstanding. My experience was with a good old boys club who were all about playing military and refused to realistically train for the mission.

Yup, that. I'm sure there are good ones, but I haven't found one yet.
 
You think pilots are a clusterflop? You should check out boaters.

Yeah. Until very recently you didn't need any qualification other than money to operate a pleasure boat. Many I have seen think a sailboat always has the right of way. My favorite Farside cartoon was of a crusty looking tug driver with a series of Sunfish silhouettes painted under the pilothouse ports. :rofl:
 
Yeah. Until very recently you didn't need any qualification other than money to operate a pleasure boat. Many I have seen think a sailboat always has the right of way. My favorite Farside cartoon was of a crusty looking tug driver with a series of Sunfish silhouettes painted under the pilothouse ports. :rofl:


:confused::confused::confused: When did it change? There are a few states that have boat drivers licenses that are a quick 20 question written away, but as far as the Federal Gov't is concerned as long as I have no passengers for hire, I can run any boat with no license or qualification. Insurance for a boat over 65' typically requires a license or a history of coming up boating, but nothing legally required.
 
:confused::confused::confused: When did it change? There are a few states that have boat drivers licenses that are a quick 20 question written away, but as far as the Federal Gov't is concerned as long as I have no passengers for hire, I can run any boat with no license or qualification. Insurance for a boat over 65' typically requires a license or a history of coming up boating, but nothing legally required.

Yes I was referring to the "tests" some states are using as a revenue tool for the waters they control. On salt water it's still the wild wild West.
 
Not for nuthin but I think the OP is gone.
 
Yes I was referring to the "tests" some states are using as a revenue tool for the waters they control. On salt water it's still the wild wild West.


Having reviewed several states tests, that's been my determination, just some mo money.
 
When I first got out of the service, after a hitch in the reserves, I joined the CAP and had a so/so time. The group was very enamored of titles and important looking insignia. That got a little old, but we worked the kids through a strong series of mission related training, got them used to spotting and made sure they got to have a lot of fun times, to make it worth the not so fun times.
We moved to another community and I joined (transferred, I guess) but didn't last. They were ALL about the social end of things, and led by a couple of old farts, that were determined that nothing ever change, nothing ever happen and no one ever rock their tidy, little, boat.

As for USGC Aux, I spend four years in a unit and we were led by an incredible seaman. He had log books full of lessons to teach, missions to train for and goals to reach. The Coasties were a touch hard to take, at times, but we coexisted, especially after 9-11 when they were working mandatory 84 hour weeks, or close to it, and we came out and spelled them on the river and inter-coastal.

IMHO, It's like everything else. You get what you expect to get, unless you work to make it better.
 
I joined once with the only intention of trying to help the cadets. I was fresh out of the basic and tech school pipeline where I volunteered as an airman leader, so I was pretty sharp with my cadence and marching stuff.... anyhow, I was content to not fly at all.

They found out I had a pilot's license and started talking to me about all the different ways they could use me to ferry aircraft, etc, etc... I said sure if you need the help I'd be glad to but again I really had no ambition to fill out ten pages of CAP paperwork to fly their aircraft.

So I did all the training modules online at their insistence. Then it came time for them to sign me off on their end... lots of empty promises unfulfilled. After a while I just didn't want to come any more. I signed up to help out the cadets and I never did. I was asked to do so and so training because they needed the help. Then I get the stiff arm treatment for something I never even wanted.

Never had any problems with the rank or uniforms. I didn't wear a CAP uniform I just came over after work wearing my AF ABU's and nobody ever said anything. If they didn't like me volunteering with an Air Force uniform on then tough crap.
 
It would be nice if they just had a dress code and a name tag or other official credential.

The op pm'd me and I think I'll tag along with him to a meeting sometime. Can't hurt.
 
I thought about the CG Aux (as a former CG EM) and quickly learned that it would all be on my dime for air work, and that the level of... competence was not what I hoped for.

The CAP wing near me has a good rep. I just don't have the time to give right now.
 
I thought about the CG Aux (as a former CG EM) and quickly learned that it would all be on my dime for air work, and that the level of... competence was not what I hoped for.

The CAP wing near me has a good rep. I just don't have the time to give right now.

Ahh you're an EM......so you actually worked for a living!!!! :thumbsup:
 
my post copied word for word from the thread a month ago.

"I had one of the little wannabes tell me I couldn't go to the GA parking at an airshow. (I flew in, airshow portion was over and I wanted to beat the crowd out.) I told him I was a pilot and pointed at my airplane, he said "No you're not." I pulled out my pilots cert and made the little retard look at it. I had another CAP person refuse to talk to me because I WASN'T part of the CAP and wasn't worth her time. I had a CAP airplane pull on the runway while I was abeam the numbers and tell me to extend my downwind because he was doing his runup. When I was working at the front desk at Boerne over the summer I had one of the "Powered Flight Academy" graduates try to rent an airplane from me. When I told him he would need a checkout from an instructor he told me "You don't understand, I'm with the CAP." He was a student pilot with less than 15 hours.

Just ask any CAP pilot though, and they will tell you how great they are. I've only met 1 CAP pilot from a squadron around here that I like, and even he says some of the people are retards. From what I've heard we just have lousy squadrons around here, because it sounds like they have some good ones up in Colorado. All of the junior members are FSXperts. All of them trot their rank around like it actually means something, and I can't help but laugh.


I was at the Fredericksburg diner once with my friend who was a harrier pilot, and T38 instructor who is currently flying for AA. He thinks they are stupid, too."
 
I joined once with the only intention of trying to help the cadets. I was fresh out of the basic and tech school pipeline where I volunteered as an airman leader, so I was pretty sharp with my cadence and marching stuff.... anyhow, I was content to not fly at all.

They found out I had a pilot's license and started talking to me about all the different ways they could use me to ferry aircraft, etc, etc... I said sure if you need the help I'd be glad to but again I really had no ambition to fill out ten pages of CAP paperwork to fly their aircraft.

So I did all the training modules online at their insistence. Then it came time for them to sign me off on their end... lots of empty promises unfulfilled. After a while I just didn't want to come any more. I signed up to help out the cadets and I never did. I was asked to do so and so training because they needed the help. Then I get the stiff arm treatment for something I never even wanted.

Never had any problems with the rank or uniforms. I didn't wear a CAP uniform I just came over after work wearing my AF ABU's and nobody ever said anything. If they didn't like me volunteering with an Air Force uniform on then tough crap.

I kind of had the same motivation. Work with kids, have a little fun helping them see if the AF was a good way to go and let things kind of go. One time it worked out all right. The second time, not so good.
 
my post copied word for word from the thread a month ago.

"I had one of the little wannabes tell me I couldn't go to the GA parking at an airshow. (I flew in, airshow portion was over and I wanted to beat the crowd out.) I told him I was a pilot and pointed at my airplane, he said "No you're not." I pulled out my pilots cert and made the little retard look at it. I had another CAP person refuse to talk to me because I WASN'T part of the CAP and wasn't worth her time. I had a CAP airplane pull on the runway while I was abeam the numbers and tell me to extend my downwind because he was doing his runup. When I was working at the front desk at Boerne over the summer I had one of the "Powered Flight Academy" graduates try to rent an airplane from me. When I told him he would need a checkout from an instructor he told me "You don't understand, I'm with the CAP." He was a student pilot with less than 15 hours.

Just ask any CAP pilot though, and they will tell you how great they are. I've only met 1 CAP pilot from a squadron around here that I like, and even he says some of the people are retards. From what I've heard we just have lousy squadrons around here, because it sounds like they have some good ones up in Colorado. All of the junior members are FSXperts. All of them trot their rank around like it actually means something, and I can't help but laugh.


I was at the Fredericksburg diner once with my friend who was a harrier pilot, and T38 instructor who is currently flying for AA. He thinks they are stupid, too."


You're in Texas, what do you want? Arkansas isn't as retarded as Texas...:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
My first logged flight in my first logbook was as a CAP cadet, way back when. I was a cadet for a number of years, and then a senior member. As a cadet, I was a mission pilot, back when that was still allowed. For nearly eight years, I was the only member of the wing (the state level organization) that attended every practice and live exercise and search. I was quite involved.

I came to a point when I'd finally had enough of the stuffed shirts and self-importance. It hit a head one Sunday when I was called to search for a missing skier. I showed up at the wing building to pick up the airplane, and found that the keys were missing. It turned out that the wing commander's buddy had them; an overweight older gentleman who couldn't really squeeze into his uniform any more. He angrily told me that it was his airplane,and he was the only one who would fly it. When I demanded he bring me the keys, pointed out that someone might die if we didn't get out and search,and that we'd driven seventy five miles with a crew ready to go, he finally showed up, yelling, turning red, spitting as he talked. The airplane belonged to the CAP, and ultimately to the USAF and the taxpayer, not to him.

Fast forward many years later, when my kids showed an interest. I talked up the program, told them to think of it like the boy scouts with more benefits (they're active scouts), and two of them began attending. A year later the squadron still hadn't processed their membership. They still couldn't wear a uniform or achieve any rank, or get orientation flights. Just long drives every week to the meetings, where they'd spin their wheels for three hours and come home late on a school night.

After the squadron lost their paperwork for the second time (and the membership fees I paid for them), I finally blew my stack. The squadron commander made all kinds of excuses, and I was told that they don't need my kind there. That's just fine. I decided I really didn't need them, either. Both boys decided they'd had enough, and elected to go elsewhere. The older boy was in Naval Jr. ROTC at the time, and had something to compare the CAP to. He quit, and stayed with his ROTC.

CAP can be a decent organization, but its quality is very much a function of the volunteers that run it and those that participate. As for those who feel it's their chance to play GI Joe; everyone is civillian. Nobody has any real grade or rank. It's all irrelevant. It's small, light aircraft.

The old saying that the flight isn't over until the paperwork exceeds the weight of the fuel consumed on the flight is tried and true, but not in the case of CAP. The flight won't begin there until the weight of the paperwork exceeds the gross takeoff weight of the aircraft. It's a shame. It really is.
 
My first logged flight in my first logbook was as a CAP cadet, way back when. I was a cadet for a number of years, and then a senior member. As a cadet, I was a mission pilot, back when that was still allowed. For nearly eight years, I was the only member of the wing (the state level organization) that attended every practice and live exercise and search. I was quite involved.

I came to a point when I'd finally had enough of the stuffed shirts and self-importance. It hit a head one Sunday when I was called to search for a missing skier. I showed up at the wing building to pick up the airplane, and found that the keys were missing. It turned out that the wing commander's buddy had them; an overweight older gentleman who couldn't really squeeze into his uniform any more. He angrily told me that it was his airplane,and he was the only one who would fly it. When I demanded he bring me the keys, pointed out that someone might die if we didn't get out and search,and that we'd driven seventy five miles with a crew ready to go, he finally showed up, yelling, turning red, spitting as he talked. The airplane belonged to the CAP, and ultimately to the USAF and the taxpayer, not to him.

Fast forward many years later, when my kids showed an interest. I talked up the program, told them to think of it like the boy scouts with more benefits (they're active scouts), and two of them began attending. A year later the squadron still hadn't processed their membership. They still couldn't wear a uniform or achieve any rank, or get orientation flights. Just long drives every week to the meetings, where they'd spin their wheels for three hours and come home late on a school night.

After the squadron lost their paperwork for the second time (and the membership fees I paid for them), I finally blew my stack. The squadron commander made all kinds of excuses, and I was told that they don't need my kind there. That's just fine. I decided I really didn't need them, either. Both boys decided they'd had enough, and elected to go elsewhere. The older boy was in Naval Jr. ROTC at the time, and had something to compare the CAP to. He quit, and stayed with his ROTC.

CAP can be a decent organization, but its quality is very much a function of the volunteers that run it and those that participate. As for those who feel it's their chance to play GI Joe; everyone is civillian. Nobody has any real grade or rank. It's all irrelevant. It's small, light aircraft.

The old saying that the flight isn't over until the paperwork exceeds the weight of the fuel consumed on the flight is tried and true, but not in the case of CAP. The flight won't begin there until the weight of the paperwork exceeds the gross takeoff weight of the aircraft. It's a shame. It really is.

From the stories I've heard, and comparing to my own experience in the organization, it's evident that the quality of the members, the squadrons, and even the wings is very uneven.
 
I've told my story in other threads, and there are a lot of folks here who've had awful experiences, and some who would complain even if they were handed a million dollars, both types who are downright burnt on the organization.

So I'll add a positive story, take it or leave it.

I'm in a pretty "good" Squadron. Dedicated volunteers, most not interested in the big-headed fake rank stuff, etc. Good expectations from the Squadron staff leadership. Anyone who puts forth an effort seems to do fine.

It's clear that there are definitely some bad squadrons out there too.

We tell folks who visit to come to a few meetings, figure out if they fit the structure and would enjoy the jobs, and the people. There's no point doing it if you don't like who you're working with, after all.

An awful lot of any Squadron's effectiveness or lack thereof rests in the attitudes of the leadership and members.

The paperwork is getting a lot lighter. It's at least mostly online these days. Often, you fill out the papers once, scan them, upload them to the online system, and they live there from that point on. Wise folk keep a file box with the paper at home, just in case. Or files on their hard drive or Dropbox account.

My specialties are Communications and Emergency Services. I'm our Squadron Communications Officer and the Wing Director of Communications Engineering. I also recently was asked to join a National task force related to the Engineering role. I accepted but mainly because I will have to live with whatever standards the task force comes up with. Might as well have a say in it, up-front. New ground for CAP, old ground for me. Should be interesting.

Felt honored to have two separate folks ask me to participate within a few hours of the announcement. Will try to do a good job for those who have to follow on afterward.

Personally, I got serious about CAP "Professional Development" when I returned after a long break, because at higher eschelons, there are a lot of folks who do believe grade means something. There's also no way any leader can ask others to participate in something they don't or won't do themselves. Leadership 101.

I'll be eligible for Captain the "hard way" next month. Then five years to Major. It means nothing other than time in service, but that does count when you talk to someone who's been involved for 20-30 years.

They've seen a lot of people come and go. They've seen Squadrons come and go. (As have I.)

Feel free to ask questions. I'll do my best to answer anything in my scope of involvement.
 
From the stories I've heard, and comparing to my own experience in the organization, it's evident that the quality of the members, the squadrons, and even the wings is very uneven.

It's indicative of the leadership in this nation across the board, me me me, self agrandisement with a few good guys tossed in.

It's all about the leadership we get dealt and unfortunately the 80/20 rule still holds true.
 
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When asked for a specific list of tangible results, how do you respond? Can you point to specific accomplishments insofar as doing whatever it is that your squadron is supposed to do? Does your group look for downed airplanes or perform some other function?

I've told my story in other threads, and there are a lot of folks here who've had awful experiences, and some who would complain even if they were handed a million dollars, both types who are downright burnt on the organization.

So I'll add a positive story, take it or leave it.

I'm in a pretty "good" Squadron. Dedicated volunteers, most not interested in the big-headed fake rank stuff, etc. Good expectations from the Squadron staff leadership. Anyone who puts forth an effort seems to do fine.

It's clear that there are definitely some bad squadrons out there too.

We tell folks who visit to come to a few meetings, figure out if they fit the structure and would enjoy the jobs, and the people. There's no point doing it if you don't like who you're working with, after all.

An awful lot of any Squadron's effectiveness or lack thereof rests in the attitudes of the leadership and members.

The paperwork is getting a lot lighter. It's at least mostly online these days. Often, you fill out the papers once, scan them, upload them to the online system, and they live there from that point on. Wise folk keep a file box with the paper at home, just in case. Or files on their hard drive or Dropbox account.

My specialties are Communications and Emergency Services. I'm our Squadron Communications Officer and the Wing Director of Communications Engineering. I also recently was asked to join a National task force related to the Engineering role. I accepted but mainly because I will have to live with whatever standards the task force comes up with. Might as well have a say in it, up-front. New ground for CAP, old ground for me. Should be interesting.

Felt honored to have two separate folks ask me to participate within a few hours of the announcement. Will try to do a good job for those who have to follow on afterward.

Personally, I got serious about CAP "Professional Development" when I returned after a long break, because at higher eschelons, there are a lot of folks who do believe grade means something. There's also no way any leader can ask others to participate in something they don't or won't do themselves. Leadership 101.

I'll be eligible for Captain the "hard way" next month. Then five years to Major. It means nothing other than time in service, but that does count when you talk to someone who's been involved for 20-30 years.

They've seen a lot of people come and go. They've seen Squadrons come and go. (As have I.)

Feel free to ask questions. I'll do my best to answer anything in my scope of involvement.
 
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