Those hairs on the back of your neck

[Bill]

Wednesday was the first time since I've been flying (140hrs) that I've been truly concerned for my life. It went like this:

I had a quick business trip to Tucson, and flew the metal tubes out there Wednesday morning. Landed 10am local, went to the hotel, and called my colleague from a sister company, "Change in plans, we won't meet until 2:30pm and won't be at the customer site until 3:30pm."

Ok, what to do for a few hours? I remembered seeing a good number of GA planes while taxiing in, so I hopped in the rental car and began driving the side roads near the airport. I found a couple of FBO's who catered to the bizjet set, but no joy on finding a plane. Then I find Sonoran Wings, and out front they have the old familiar green "Learn to fly here sign." I run in, and sure enough they have a Skyhawk and instructor available, so we head out for a sightseeing flight.

We depart, and first fly over "A" Mountain, a locally known peak near the city. After that, we head north, and then fly east along the southern edge of the mountains in Coronado National Forest. Nice easy flying, and great views of the mountians and fabulous luxury homes nestled against them as we fly at 6500ft.

We get the first call from departure, "Cessna 387 sierra papa, traffic 9 oclock, 4 miles, maneuvering at 6500, type and altitude unverified." I look briefly, and my instructor continues to look while I take in the views. Then, "Cessna 387sierra papa, traffic is now 9 o'lock, 2 miles, northbound, 6500ft, still unverified." OK, red alert, we both now have heads on swivels, but neither of us see anything.

Then the chilling urgent call, and I hear the stress in the controllers voice: "7 sierra pop, the traffic is right on top of you, the blips have merged, I only see one blip, use extreme caution." Holy crap, where is he? We both keep looking, and I see the look in the CFI's face and he sees the look in mine. "I don't like this," I mutter, "neither do I."

We had planned to turn south about now, so I lift the right wing, we both look closely, and then I start a standard rate turn to the south. About mid way thru the turn, I thought I heard GA engine sounds from the rear, and I spin my head around to look, but find nothing. Neither does the CFI.

We roll out southbound, and I ask if traffic is still a factor. Approach replies, "I don't know, once the blips merged, I've only seen one blip on the screen." What the hell?

We continue south, then ask for and get permission to circle just south of the Air Force bone yard, thousands of planes mothballed in the desert. After several circles, we ask for vectors and go land back at TUS.

For a few minutes, I was very much in fear, and can't really explain the situation. I know there is an Air Force base in Tucson, and I know they were flying training missions all during the day, think they were doing something?

Space aliens?

An aircraft that two pilots couldn't find?

Truly weird.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

That's pretty scary, Bill. I was once told by a controller who flies out of my home airport that the military has the ability to make their images dissappear from ATC STARS screens (he said he saw it demoed once).

 

[woodstock]

holy ****! wonder how you could find out?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Wednesday was the first time since I've been flying (140hrs) that I've been truly concerned for my life. It went like this:

I had a quick business trip to Tucson, and flew the metal tubes out there Wednesday morning. Landed 10am local, went to the hotel, and called my colleague from a sister company, "Change in plans, we won't meet until 2:30pm and won't be at the customer site until 3:30pm."

Ok, what to do for a few hours? I remembered seeing a good number of GA planes while taxiing in, so I hopped in the rental car and began driving the side roads near the airport. I found a couple of FBO's who catered to the bizjet set, but no joy on finding a plane. Then I find Sonoran Wings, and out front they have the old familiar green "Learn to fly here sign." I run in, and sure enough they have a Skyhawk and instructor available, so we head out for a sightseeing flight.

We depart, and first fly over "A" Mountain, a locally known peak near the city. After that, we head north, and then fly east along the southern edge of the mountains in Coronado National Forest. Nice easy flying, and great views of the mountians and fabulous luxury homes nestled against them as we fly at 6500ft.

We get the first call from departure, "Cessna 387 sierra papa, traffic 9 oclock, 4 miles, maneuvering at 6500, type and altitude unverified." I look briefly, and my instructor continues to look while I take in the views. Then, "Cessna 387sierra papa, traffic is now 9 o'lock, 2 miles, northbound, 6500ft, still unverified." OK, red alert, we both now have heads on swivels, but neither of us see anything.

Then the chilling urgent call, and I hear the stress in the controllers voice: "7 sierra pop, the traffic is right on top of you, the blips have merged, I only see one blip, use extreme caution." Holy crap, where is he? We both keep looking, and I see the look in the CFI's face and he sees the look in mine. "I don't like this," I mutter, "neither do I."

We had planned to turn south about now, so I lift the right wing, we both look closely, and then I start a standard rate turn to the south. About mid way thru the turn, I thought I heard GA engine sounds from the rear, and I spin my head around to look, but find nothing. Neither does the CFI.

We roll out southbound, and I ask if traffic is still a factor. Approach replies, "I don't know, once the blips merged, I've only seen one blip on the screen." What the hell?

We continue south, then ask for and get permission to circle just south of the Air Force bone yard, thousands of planes mothballed in the desert. After several circles, we ask for vectors and go land back at TUS.

For a few minutes, I was very much in fear, and can't really explain the situation. I know there is an Air Force base in Tucson, and I know they were flying training missions all during the day, think they were doing something?

Space aliens?

An aircraft that two pilots couldn't find?

Truly weird.

First thing to do is tell them you're changing your altitude & do it, then recheck as needed.

 

[Toby]

That is very scary, Bill. Also odd, since he was going north and you were heading east for a while. You would think one of you would have seen the other. I was once in a situation where I couldn't see an airplane headed straight toward me, at my altitude. The sun was in my eyes as well. ATC told me to climb 500 feet immediately. I hesitated (stupidly), trying to see the airplane, but I couldn't. ATC repeated that it was a traffic alert, to climb immediately, and I then did. Never saw the plane, not once, not even when it had passed below me, and I was flying a high-wing. Gets your heart going.

 

[kath]

I had ATC warn me about traffic above me, same direction. I eventually saw the guy, almost the same altitude as me but on my right. (Actually my passenger spotted the guy first.) Then ATC vectored the other guy to the left! I saw him bank towards me... I chopped the throttle and he went over me. Don't trust those altitude encoders... they aren't always right!

--Kath

 

[PoAdeleted5]

deleted.

 

[wsuffa]

Scary, but occasionally the radar screws up. See Don Brown's column where he talks about it.

 

[Carol]

.....
Space aliens?....

That would be my guess. Glad you didn't get close enough to find out face to face.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I was in El Paso once doing low level manuevering and approach kept calling traffic that seemed to mimic our every turn. It was cafb out, we would have seen someone if anyone was there. Someone later told me it was some kind of false dual image the radar will sometimes get.
PS, in the area Bill describes, I remember vividly seeing a group of A10s zip and whirl around below us a few years back, on our way into tus - there was a squadron based at davis-monthan.

 

[Richard]

The first rule in manuevering to avoid a collision is to make a course change. Make it early and make it obvious. Not manuevering means you are a sitting duck and are subject to whatever will naturally happen. Manuevering allows you to regain some control of the situation.

Alt change is a secondary response. But you don't know if this resolved the situation, especially when you cannot see the target. Even if you can see it, it is often difficult to distinguish his attitude from straight and level--he may be climbing/descending into you.

 

[gismo]

Might have been a terrain reflection of your return blip.

Not likely if Bill was on a discrete code and the other was squawking 1200. My guess would be another airplane at a very different altitude with a bad encoder.

 

[gismo]

The first rule in manuevering to avoid a collision is to make a course change. Make it early and make it obvious. Not manuevering means you are a sitting duck and are subject to whatever will naturally happen. Manuevering allows you to regain some control of the situation.

Alt change is a secondary response. But you don't know if this resolved the situation, especially when you cannot see the target. Even if you can see it, it is often difficult to distinguish his attitude from straight and level--he may be climbing/descending into you.

Plus if the other plane's altitude is unverified, you could be changing altitude right into them. In such cases escape laterally.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Plus if the other plane's altitude is unverified, you could be changing altitude right into them. In such cases escape laterally.

If the controller said (twice) aircraft at 6500, unverified, there must have been some indication of a 6500 foot altitude for them to say that twice.

 

[gismo]

If the controller said (twice) aircraft at 6500, unverified, there must have been some indication of a 6500 foot altitude for them to say that twice.

All that means is that the other aircraft's transponder is transmitting a mode C code that indicates the altitude is 6500 ft. I can get your transponder to read several thousand feet off at ATC by cutting one wire between your encoder and transponder if the transponder isn't a recent design. An unverified altitude suggests where to look for a bogey, but I wouldn't use the info to avoid it.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

All that means is that the aircraft's transponder was reporting the proper mode C code for 6500 ft. By cutting one wire on your transponder to encoder I can get it to report several thousand feet off.

OK, True...
Was there any reason to think the aircraft reported at 6500 was not at 6500 feet that I'm missing ?

 

[Bill]

OK, True...
Was there any reason to think the aircraft reported at 6500 was not at 6500 feet that I'm missing ?

I'm starting to think this may have been the case. If the plane were much lower, he *could* have gotten lost in the ground clutter next to the mountains if he was very low.

I don't really know.

About escaping, either laterally or vertically: I'm was reminded how sometimes when you walk around the corner and are surprised by someone, you both juke the same way and do the little dance. How do you know the way you alter course/altitude won't be the same way the other plane is going to alter course?

Not a good situation...

 

[Bill]

Not likely if Bill was on a discrete code and the other was squawking 1200. My guess would be another airplane at a very different altitude with a bad encoder.

Yes, we were squawking a discrete ATC assigned code. And, he was getting altitude reporting from the other guy, otherwise how would the controller know the guy was at 6500?

Then again, what explains the merging of the blips, with no seperation afterwards?

If I had had more wits about me, I would have asked the controller more questions (although he had his hands full with the big iron as well).

Weird.

Glad to fly another day.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I'm starting to think this may have been the case. If the plane were much lower, he *could* have gotten lost in the ground clutter next to the mountains if he was very low.

I don't really know.

About escaping, either laterally or vertically: I'm was reminded how sometimes when you walk around the corner and are surprised by someone, you both juke the same way and do the little dance. How do you know the way you alter course/altitude won't be the same way the other plane is going to alter course?

Not a good situation...

At the first ATC call of an aircraft at your altitude of 6500 and more certainly at the second call of same but closer, with nothing really amiss, I see no reason not to look to your left & right and if clear, descend say ~500 feet to your left in case he was overtaking you. View below should be quite good.

Later, after things appeared to go nonstandard, then who knows. Hard to pick a lateral if you don't know exactly where he was. Sounds like behind you if you heard his engine there.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

What is the standard resolution on atc radar? Seems like from listening and watching, merging targets can be 1/2 to 1 mi apart and atc sees them as one.
Does POA have any tinpushers on board?

 

[HPNPilot1200]

What is the standard resolution on atc radar? Seems like from listening and watching, merging targets can be 1/2 to 1 mi apart and atc sees them as one.
Does POA have any tinpushers on board?

Depends on radar sights, facilities, radar types (ARTSIII, STARS, ACD...etc, etc)

ATC can zoom in/out on ACD and STARS (not 100% sure about the others). I believe the 'normal' view is spelled out in each facilities SOP, which now is no longer accessible from FOIA (Freedom of Information Act).

Also dependant on the radar system, you can move datablocks around as well as hide them using altitude strata filters and hiding certain aircraft using other filters. (Get's kinda complicated, you can filter out alt. strata, un-tracked a/c, VFRs, LDBs...etc)

 

[mdreger]

"Unverified", although not standard phraseology, probably means that the aircraft is not talking to a RADAR controller and therefore his altitude readout has not been verbally confirmed. This is why RADAR controllers, if you haven't already, will verify your altitude on initial contact. If your reported altitude differs from the indicated altitude by more than 300ft. the controller say: " STOP ALTITUDE SQUAWK. ALTITUDE DIFFERS BY (number of feet) FEET."

If the situation was as I described above the proper phraseology is shown below.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0201.html#2-1-21

2-1-21. TRAFFIC ADVISORIES
​

c. For aircraft displaying Mode C, not radar identified, issue indicated altitude.
​

EXAMPLE-
"Traffic, one o'clock, six miles, eastbound, altitude indicates six thousand five hundred."
​

 

[HPNPilot1200]

"Unverified", although not standard phraseology, probably means that the aircraft is not talking to a RADAR controller and therefore his altitude readout has not been verbally confirmed. This is why RADAR controllers, if you haven't already, will verify your altitude on initial contact. If your reported altitude differs from the indicated altitude by more than 300ft. the controller say: " STOP ALTITUDE SQUAWK. ALTITUDE DIFFERS BY (number of feet) FEET."

If the situation was as I described above the proper phraseology is shown below.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0201.html#2-1-21

2-1-21. TRAFFIC ADVISORIES
​

c. For aircraft displaying Mode C, not radar identified, issue indicated altitude.
​

EXAMPLE-
"Traffic, one o'clock, six miles, eastbound, altitude indicates six thousand five hundred."
​

From my understanding, the controller meant to say indicates, not unverified. He could have also meant "unknown" referring to the type which was "unknown"

 

[HPNPilot1200]

There must be some reason that you folks are reluctant to ask for "vectors to avoid the traffic". The radar controller can easily see which way to turn that will insure the two aircraft will not hit each other. What is the reason folks are not requesting this service? -- Mike

I look that up in the FAO 7110.65P, but I think the {request} must initiate from the pilot. I definitely see your point, and it is a good one!

 

[kath]

True, you have to ask for it, just like a "special VFR" or a "contact approach". I have never heard a radar controller offer "vectors to avoid the traffic", special VFR or a contact approach. -- Mike

Well, not in those words... But I've heard controllers say "recommend a 10 degree turn to the right to avoid traffic" many times.

--Kath

 

[wsuffa]

Well, not in those words... But I've heard controllers say "recommend a 10 degree turn to the right to avoid traffic" many times.

--Kath

Me, too.

And in/near Class B & C airspace, 'turn right 20 degrees for traffic'.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Me, too.
And in/near Class B & C airspace, 'turn right 20 degrees for traffic'.

I got it two weeks ago in ELP cca, for a sailplane. No request.
I guess some controllers are different in how they accept responsibility for vfr traffic.
I remember over Roswell at dusk years ago, the controller called traffic for two a/c, three times til the separation was less than a mile same altitude, and neither pilot ever made ctc nor asked for a vector. Pride? Paralysis?

 

[Michael]

Bill, Same thing happened to me in the banning pass a few months back. pretty scarey isnt it. took me a good 5 minutes to calm down after that one. I had my daughter with me too, I think that scared me more than anything else.

 

[bbchien]

Banning Pass is just like the funnel under ORD Class B. Everybody is going through it. The difference is that PSP approach tries to help the pilots out (though they can't see you in the pass), Chicago approach just "We Can't HEAR YOU!".

 

[gismo]

Well, not in those words... But I've heard controllers say "recommend a 10 degree turn to the right to avoid traffic" many times.

--Kath

I've heard that, and I've had ATC ask "would you like vectors around the traffic" when there was same altitude VFR traffic coming at me that I couldn't see and that ATC wasn't talking to. I think that was on an IFR flight in VMC, but, VFR advisories is pretty much the same WRT VFR traffic.

And to Mike's question, I suspect that many pilots are somewhat embarrased when they can't spot traffic that's been called and don't want to sound even more "wimpy" by asking for vectors. I know I've felt that way (but I got over it). I also know that in most cases controllers will breathe a lot easier if you take a vector rather than let the targets merge. For you pilots that won't ask for vectors, consider that you can still keep trying to find the traffic while on the vector and save face by finding it eventually.

 

[Bill]

And to Mike's question, I suspect that many pilots are somewhat embarrased when they can't spot traffic that's been called and don't want to sound even more "wimpy" by asking for vectors.

Nothing wimpy about it, I didn't know I could ask for "vectors for traffic avoidance." Next time, it will be in the bag of tricks, and I will ask.

I don't really care about wimpy, macho, or anything else, dead is dead. Glad I'm here to learn from all of you wiser folks.

 

[Toby]

Nothing wimpy about it, I didn't know I could ask for "vectors for traffic avoidance." Next time, it will be in the bag of tricks, and I will ask.

I don't really care about wimpy, macho, or anything else, dead is dead. Glad I'm here to learn from all of you wiser folks.

I didn't know that, either. It's really a good idea, and I plan to use it.

Today I got one of those sudden directives to turn to a heading to avoid traffic that I didn't spot. It was right near JFK, some large jet. You have to be so alert.