Thinking about a KLN-89B

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by bgfyankee, Apr 8, 2012.

  1. bgfyankee

    bgfyankee Pre-Flight

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    I'm thinking about adding the King KLN-89B to my Skyhawk to give it IFR GPS capability at a low cost. Does anyone out there have one of these units also have the KX-155 NAV/COM? I'm trying to figure out what CDI will interface easiest with both and what annunciator is my best bet with a 14V system.

    I know there are other, newer, better choices out there, but my question specifically addresses this unit. I know it's asking a lot, but I'd like to keep opinions limited to this unit specifically. Thanks in advance!
     
  2. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    There are several CDI's which will interface with the 89B as well as your 155. Your avionics shop should be able to tell you quickly whether the one you have will work. If not, the King KI-209A is a popular choice for that combination.
     
  3. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    An AK-950 is the annunciator you probably want, it's the smallest, finding them used for 14V systems is going to be a tall order. http://www.ameri-king.com/gps_accessories.html
    you need to get the one for the KLN89B.

    I like the KI202 indicator but it doesn't have G/S capabilities, nor does it have a built in VOR/LOC converter.

    If you want to switch the GPS with the KX155, my understanding is that you'll need an external VOR/LOC converter (Typically cheap on eBay). There maybe a CDI that can handle both, I'm not an avionics guy....

    For my setup, I added a KI202 and did not switch the GPS with the KX155, one less thing to worry about. I think y ou can actually get an annunciator that doesn't have switching capabilites and just "annunciates" and save a couple hundie. I bought the switching one, because, I know as soon as I didn't, I'd need it.

    No
     
  4. bgfyankee

    bgfyankee Pre-Flight

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    Thank you for the responses. I actually do want it to switch between the KX-155 and the KLN-89B. Does the Ameri-King annunciator have a switch built into it? I have dual KX-155s (one with GS, the other without) and ideally I think I'd link it to the one which does not have the GS since it's only for non-precision GPS approaches anyhow. Would the KI-202 still be okay for this?
     
  5. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Get a KI202 (There are others that will work also) ($500 on sale or $750 "regular" for an overhauled unit, I don't recommend buying one of these used. if the meter movement goes bad, it's more expensive than buying an overhauled unit) and a KN-77 converter VOR/LOC Converter (Check eBay can usually be had new for 20-50 bucks, expensive otherwise) and a AK-950 (The most common one will switch) should be in the 500-700 range new and note they have to be explicitly for the KLN-89B.

    Here's about what you're looking at for the KI202 the -07 P/N is I believe what you're looking for, I got mine from SEA, highly recommend getting this one.
    http://www.sea-avionics.com/lc/cart.php?target=productDetails&model=KI-202&substring=ki202 (I got mine during the "Silver Crown Special" for $500 bucks, that was only a couple of months ago.. Might not hurt to ask.

    Snag this Annunciator for $350 if you can, these things are kinda rare on the used market. Mine was $800 but I just had to pay it to get in the air, they're cheaper than that new but the only place that could overnight one and didn't have a one month lead time knew it, so I paid it.
    http://www.planesenseavionics.com/used.html

    Here's the eBay search you want for the KN-77
    http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=KN-77+-"K&N"&_sacat=6028&_odkw=KN-77&_osacat=6028&_from=R40

    I had a spare KN-77 that I was going to use to switch a KN53 with my 89B but I sold the KN53 and gave away the KN-77

    You'll need that to have the KI202 work with the KX155.

    I'm assuming you're going to switch it with the non G/S KX155.

    Note: I'm not an avionics guy, so you probably want to double check what I'm saying with a shop before you order up 1200 bucks in parts.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2012
  6. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    For some reason I thought you already had the 89B and just wanted to IFRitize it. I'd look for a transplant system if I could find one. You're looking at around $2K for the unit, annunciator, CDI and parts, but I've seen the entire package sell in the $1200-$1500 range. Figure 1500 or so for the install if all goes well. Also note that the 89B in IFR mode isn't STCed and can be a little bit of a paperwork pain in the ass if your installer is rusty on the regs and knowing what the FSDO wants. Not a big deal, just make sure you have the paperwork flowing up front and not try to tack it on after the fact.
     
  7. BillTIZ

    BillTIZ Final Approach

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    Check out the approaches where you will be flying. The KLN-89B and KLN-94 will not cover all approaches. They are for non-precision gps approaches only.

    Almost all approaches in my local area require DME. Flying the LAS ILS Rwy 25L requires the ILS on Nav1 and the Gps tuned to LAS VORTAC for DME information. The LAS ILS Rwy 1L requires the DME from the Loc freq, not the Vortac, that approach will not be loaded into the data base.

    Also the VGT ILS Rwy 12L requires DME from the Loc freq and therefore is not loaded into the KLN-89B database.

    Know what the limitations are before you install. The KLN-89B is a good Enroute IFR gps, but only maintains non-precision approaches in the database.
     
  8. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You can sub the GPS for a DME on the VOR/DME approaches, no loading needed, just punch in the NAVAID and read the distance.

    http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/1999/991213gps.html

    Maybe not as handy as having the entire approach loaded, but the GPS doesn't go worthless just because the approach isn't in the database.
     
  9. bgfyankee

    bgfyankee Pre-Flight

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    I have a DME that I'll be keeping, so no issue there. I'm looking for this unit to make me legal for IFR and it's no worries for me that it's only for non-precision approach use. I'll also be utilizing a 696 as an overlay. This will give me capability to shoot just about any approach that I run into, which is the desired result. Most places I go anymore are phasing out VORs and NDBs, so this is a necessary improvement. Thank you all for your input, this REALLY helps me get a handle on it!!!

    Z
     
  10. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Put the DME on eBay. and the KN72 is the newer version of the KN77 I think... Look for that instead.
     
  11. bgfyankee

    bgfyankee Pre-Flight

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    I was under the impression that you couldn't do that for VOR/DME approaches. I thought the plates read "DME Required" for those...?

    EDIT: Just read the article from you link. Perhaps I will drop my KN-64...don't really use it anyhow, lol. It usually stay off. I WILL keep the KR-87 ADF though...I do like having it to fall back on.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2012
  12. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The GPS is an acceptable replacement for a DME so it IS the DME, IIRC You don't even need an up to date database, just make sure the navaid hasn't moved. with my 89B we're either using a GPS approach or using it as DME for a VOR/DME approach. I'm just an instrument student, so consider your source but that's my understanding.
     
  13. BillyBH

    BillyBH Pre-Flight

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    If you are thinking of having the 89B autoswitch frequencies on your comm, ibelieve it has to be the KX155A....
     
  14. BillTIZ

    BillTIZ Final Approach

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    That is exactly what I described for LAS Rwy 25L, but you can't do that for the other two ILS approaches in my valley. The DME is on the LOC freq and therefore not loaded in the database. Look up the VGT ILS Rwy 12L and you'll see what I mean.
     
  15. BillTIZ

    BillTIZ Final Approach

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    Sounds like the 89B will fill the bill.
    Our 89B display is failing and the owner is looking to swap to the KLN-94 in the same slot.
     
  16. BillTIZ

    BillTIZ Final Approach

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    Unless you need the panel space, I would keep the KN-64. Never know when the ILS/DME you really need to use has the DME at the LOC and not an associated VOR. That is more and more an issue as they use DME and no longer have to maintain off airport outer marker and middle marker beacons and land space.
     
  17. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Speaking of substituting GPS for DME, when that was first allowed, there was a requirement for the location of the DME station to be in the GPS database. Does anyone know if that requirement still exists?
     
  18. alfadog

    alfadog En-Route

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    Went through that idea with several avionics shops and the owner of a flight school. The upshot? Add a KLN 89B or 94B? Just DON'T.

    The KLN, esp.the 89B, is old technology. Gas discharge screen, I believe. If the screen goes, and they do, throw it out, a replacement screen is $1000.

    Do you have an avionics tech that will do the install for you cheap? If so, I want his number.

    I talked to three or four shops and they all quote right at $3000 labor to install a GPS. So if you are going to drop that kind of $$, why go for some $1000 KLN? The Garmin/Apollo GX55 (no comm radio)/ GX65 (comm radio) is nice and not much more but again the screens. They are failing and there are NO new replacements to be had at any price.

    So what does that leave? There are other units but I do not know the scene with repair or replacement parts. For my Arrow, I am just going to bit the bullet and install a clean, used GNS 430W. The KLN would be about $5k all in, the Garmin around $9k. I think it is more bang for the buck and increases the resale enough to cover the difference and resale is something we are thinking about.
     
  19. BillTIZ

    BillTIZ Final Approach

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    Approved with IFR certified GPSs in July 1998. The location of the DME antenna or ADF point (when used on ADF overlay approach or compass locator) must be in the database provided. No hand loading allowed.
     
  20. alfadog

    alfadog En-Route

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    Oops, I broke the rule. Sorry.

    But I am serious about the avionic tech question. Do you have a price on installing this or do you have something else going (i.e. your brother, dad, etc.)? :D
     
  21. dmac5356

    dmac5356 Pre-Flight

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    Also realize that Garmin has ended support for the non-WAAS version of the 430, also the 430 screens fail and the entire face plate is replaced for $900 (maybe more, as that price was 4 years ago).
     
  22. alfadog

    alfadog En-Route

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    I will be installing a 430W as a minimum.
     
  23. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I had a KLN89B/AK950/KI202/Data Port installed, marker beacons fixed, a new Alt encoder, a KY197 comm. KR86 removed , KX170B removed and some wires cleaned up. Labor was $1500. Estimate for just installing the GPS was 15-17 hours.
     
  24. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    A 430W will be at a minimum double what a KLN89B will be. You should be able to get a serviceable 89B system installed for well under 3K. OP already has a nice NAV/COMM system and doesn't need that functionality out of 430W. He COULD pull the KX155 system and sell it and replace it with a 430W... that might make sense.
     
  25. alfadog

    alfadog En-Route

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    I have quotes from three shops of about $3k in labor alone. A good KLN is at least $1k so no way, "well under 3K" per my research. What shop are you quoting? Maybe I will call them.
     
  26. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    To Pull a KX170B and replace it with a KLN89B. I had multiple quotes, none were over 2K.

    You can try Rons, http://www.ronsavionicsshop.com/ he was reasonable but a guy closer came close to his quote. I'd have a hard time recommending the guy that did mine, he did a good job at a good price but it was 9 month ordeal. Plane was down for 4 months and took another 5 to get all the ink dry on the paperwork. Rocky Mountain in Kalispell gave me a good quote too. http://www.rockymtnaircraft.com/
     
  27. alfadog

    alfadog En-Route

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    Thanks. Sounds like I might be able to do a bit better than $3K. To be honest, it was a major sticker shock to me that these guys want $3K labor to replace a LORAN with a GPS.

    edit: I would still steer clear of the 89B, though. I was thinking GX55 before I got those labor quotes.
     
  28. Skylane81E

    Skylane81E Final Approach

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    89B in one of our school planes, screens go out at least once a year and in well under 1000 dollars, we are strongly considering installing a 430 to save money.
     
  29. alfadog

    alfadog En-Route

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    "installing a 430 to save money"

    I rest my case. :wink2:
     
  30. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Whaaa'.....? I don't see that at all.

    In the context of adding IFR GPS cape to an airplane with pre existing nav and comm capabilities, the installation of a 430 over a 89B not only does NOT save money, it very much in fact increases the total cost by a factor of 2. The garmin cult is strong, that much is true. I use kln900s at work and the 89B on my warrior; the garmin 155/300 logic looks like ching chong gibberish to me. I admit I'm partial to that. But to suggest the only reasonable alternative to adding /G is to go full retard with an all-in-one-[single point of failure] wonderbox is just myopic. The cost delta between a 7k box and a 1.5k box is exactly that. There's no magical secret labor cost that closes that gap to the point of making the delta insignificant. That has already been debunked on this thread. An 89B total installed cost is a 5K endeavor, at worst. The proposed alternative is double that. The suggestion screen failures further tilt the cost gap in favor of the wonderbox is anecdotal BS. I can make the same argument for one major failure on the all in one box. Now you're really effed. I still have my /A. You got jack. To the actual point, my screen has been baking in there since '07... still taking me approach arm in the rainy soup like a champ. I better start buying lottery tickets while im on a roll...:rolleyes2:

    Then again Im a frugal air pirate. I get by with a minimalist approach to my recreational aviation. To each their own.
     
  31. bgfyankee

    bgfyankee Pre-Flight

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    I have thought about doing a 430W, but the logistics to purchase it all outright and have it installed, and then sell a KX-155 w/o GS, KN-64 DME, and KI-208 are just a little more than I'm interested in. I am also thinking about installing a PS Engineering 6000B Audio Panel at the same time, so I'm trying to spread it around a little bit. I'm happy (and trust the technology) to fly with a Garmin 696 anyhow which is why I'm not getting all overly excited about spending a whole bunch of money in the name of resale, especially when I know this will not be my last airplane. My next aircraft will definitely have a GPS in it already though I can tell you that! And to answer the question, yes...I do have someone in mind to assist with the install. I manage an airport in Tennessee and there is an IA here who also does Avionics. I trust him implicitly with my aircraft.
     
  32. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Is it just me or are all these failing display stories screaming "avionics fan" and "get an oscilloscope on that DC bus" to anyone else?!

    Heat, vibration, and dirty input power beyond a reasonable point, kill this stuff. If the displays are going out multiple times a year, something is very wrong.

    The KLN stuff came out before the rash of cheap self-distructive Chinese electrolytic capacitors flooded the assembly market too, right?

    Seen plenty of non-aviation gear "fixed" by re-capping the whole darn radio with quality caps.
     
  33. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

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    Every airplane I've seen with a 430 installed (with the exception of the DA-20) has a good spare COM/NAV radio.

    My preferred setup is a Garmin 430W and a KX155. I use the KX155 as my primary com (it's dirt simple).

    For some reason it always seems like the KX155 COM is stronger than the 430. I've seen this across several different airplanes.
     
  34. alfadog

    alfadog En-Route

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    What do you expect the labor cost to be?

    I am frugal too. Not to mention broke :D Working with the numbers I had, $3k for labor, the 430W was not 4x money all-in, it was less than a 2x. And for 2x, I think you get your money's worth, what with the nav/com in the 430W, the increased functionality of the unit, and the increase in AOPA Vref which means you get a lot of the difference back if you sell in, say, the next two years.

    edit: and you are not adding equipment that is already seriously dated. Yes, still functional but I have heard about the screens from a number of sources now, including here, and if yours is still working, good for you but that is no guarantee that someone else's will. And I will not jinx you by stating the obvious.:D
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2012
  35. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Technically, yes, but it's counter to one of the techniques we teach in IFR operations, which is to always put your course in the #1 CDI (or HSI) and your cross bearings in #2. Too much chance of forgetting which one you're supposed to be tracking and flying off into somewhere you aren't supposed to be.
     
  36. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    You do recall correctly, as long as the database is current or the procedure hasn't changed since the database expired. Reference is the notes to Table 1-1-6 in Section 1-1-19 of the AIM. Only exception is for the final segment of an approach where the DME arc is the approach course, such as the VOR/DME or TACAN Z Rwy 15 approach at KMTN.

    Close -- you must make sure the procedure has not changed by comparing the procedure amendment date on the lower left corner of the chart with the database expiration date.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2012
  37. alfadog

    alfadog En-Route

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    Selling is easy - throw it up on eBay as "working when removed". You do not have to bother with an 8130.

    Re the annunciator, that is not required if you mount the 89B in plain view in the center stack, right?
     
  38. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    It does.
     
  39. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    No, it does not. There are other ways to handle LOC DME fixes, starting with loading the relevant fix name.
     
  40. bgfyankee

    bgfyankee Pre-Flight

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    The installation manual calls for an avionics fan I believe as an "option", but it would make sense. Considering that it'll rarely be on in my aircraft, I'm not terribly concerned just yet ;)