Thinking About a Boat

[SoonerAviator]

A couple of things about owning and operating a boat compared to a operating a plane struck me immediately.

1. I can't believe they just let you operate a boat with absolutely no training. I'm going to take a boating safety course myself but it's just striking the difference.

That varies from state to state. Sometimes if you're born before, say 1980, you are exempt, but not always. I also wouldn't confuse being able to pass a brief regulations exam with people with decades of real-world experience on the water.

2. No buddy in the boating world uses checklists or pre trips anything. It seems like honestly a check list for what to do once the boat is in the water( or if you sick it- what to do once you get on the boat) would be really smart. I remember as a kid when going fishing with my dad on our boat back then, we saw some unreal stuff with people putting the boat in the water without ropes attached, trying to leave the dock with the ropes still attached to the dock, forgetting to move their poles away from the dockside of the boat and watching them snap in half as they struck the pilings! It seems since I learned how to fly a plane before operating a boat, that I really do want a checklist of things to do before leaving the dock!

Also not entirely true. Many boaters have checklists, especially with larger boats. Just like with some simple aircraft, if you've been doing it long enough the mental checklist is fine. Minimal damage is done (usually) from trying to leave the dock with the ropes attached unless you're completely oblivious to the fact that you aren't moving away like you should at idle power. Regarding trailering, the two most common errors I see (and hear about) is 1) forgetting to insert the transom plug before putting in, and 2) forgetting to raise the outdrive when pulling it out.

 

[Ted]

1. I can't believe they just let you operate a boat with absolutely no training. I'm going to take a boating safety course myself but it's just striking the difference.

I can believe it fully. For a power boat, there's really not much you need prior to going out on the lake on a beautiful day (like today - hmm, maybe we should go to the lake). Getting the boat back on the trailer is the hardest part. You probably won't do much damage if you bonk anything at low speed. Going too fast? Just pull the power back and you'll stop.

Think about prior to your first lesson. Could you have realistically taken off in a 150 and then safely landed without an instructor? I couldn't have.

 

[FormerHangie]

Just visiting this thread because my Dad and I just went partners on a 2008 23' Steiger Craft Miami model! We are thrilled and the boat is in fantastic shape! It has just 220 hours on a 225 Suzuki outboard. Really looking forward to some awesome experiences with him this summer. Hopefully it won't cut back my flying hours too much!

A couple of things about owning and operating a boat compared to a operating a plane struck me immediately.

1. I can't believe they just let you operate a boat with absolutely no training. I'm going to take a boating safety course myself but it's just striking the difference.

2. No buddy in the boating world uses checklists or pre trips anything. It seems like honestly a check list for what to do once the boat is in the water( or if you sick it- what to do once you get on the boat) would be really smart. I remember as a kid when going fishing with my dad on our boat back then, we saw some unreal stuff with people putting the boat in the water without ropes attached, trying to leave the dock with the ropes still attached to the dock, forgetting to move their poles away from the dockside of the boat and watching them snap in half as they struck the pilings! It seems since I learned how to fly a plane before operating a boat, that I really do want a checklist of things to do before leaving the dock!

3. There is just so much to learn. I'm really excited about learning something new!

Where we live, if you were born after 1999, you do have to get a certification, which you can do online.

We've been renting the last few years. Renters are required to watch a video and take a brief test. If you've driven a car, a boat is easier, especially in protected waters.

Oh, about heading out without any "ropes" on board, they're not generally called ropes. The thing you use to tie the boat to the dock is a mooring line, the cordage between your anchor and the boat is called a rode. You should also have something to either tow or be towed by another vessel, which I suppose is properly called a painter, but I've heard it called a tow line as well. That thing you use to pull a skier, wakeboarder, or an inflatable actually is called a tow rope. Inflatables have come a long way from their origins as innertubes, the one we have looks like a floating love seat:

Even the moms are willing to go out on this.

The thing that is nice about boating is that it's a mellow good time you can share with a lot of people. If you have a boat you'll find there are lots of people who will gladly go out with you, and if they want to take a turn at the helm, you can let them. In most boating incidents all that happens is some fiberglass gets scuffed. When I was 13, we lived in St. Petersburg, FL, on a canal, and we had a Boston Whaler on davits in the back yard. My father was fine with me taking the boat out with a few friends, and we had all of Boca Ciega Bay to run around in. I wasn't legal to drive a car, but I could use the boat safely.

Obviously, aviation is not nearly as forgiving.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Agreed. I've been around inland lakes and boats my entire life. Granted, I was always around people who knew the regulations, didn't sway from safety equipment, and took time to show me the correct way to do things. I have a relative, by marriage, who neglects to ever use his blower when starting his boat. I usually flip it on inconspicuously before he sits at the helm, you know, because I don't enjoy being engulfed in a ball of flames.


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[Clark1961]

Think about prior to your first lesson. Could you have realistically taken off in a 150 and then safely landed without an instructor? I couldn't have.

I heard Ed and James soloed a 140 on their first lesson but I don't know if it is true. I still haven't soloed but that's 'cause God is my copilot.

 

[Ted]

I heard Ed and James soloed a 140 on their first lesson but I don't know if it is true. I still haven't soloed but that's 'cause God is my copilot.

Some say he soloed a 421 prior to his first lesson. All we know is... he's called Ted.

 

[Bill]

Rotella is a good oil that many use in non-diesel engines. I use it in my wife's BMW, for instance.

My motorcycle calls for a 5w-40 oil, and I run Rotella[1] in it as well. Much less expensive than the motorcycle specific oils.

[1] Most gasoline car oils are energy conserving, and can cause trouble with wet clutches, no issues with Rotella.

 

[Ted]

My motorcycle calls for a 5w-40 oil, and I run Rotella[1] in it as well. Much less expensive than the motorcycle specific oils.

[1] Most gasoline car oils are energy conserving, and can cause trouble with wet clutches, no issues with Rotella.

That's what I did as well.

 

[mtuomi]

I heard Ed and James soloed a 140 on their first lesson but I don't know if it is true. I still haven't soloed but that's 'cause God is my copilot.

And Henning was God's CFI.

 

[dell30rb]

A painter is generally a dinghy's tow rope.

You should always use the blower before starting. I will skip the 4 minute rule by walking back and taking a whiff of the blower exhaust. If you had fuel in the bilge, it would reek (if your ventilation is rigged properly, mine is).

If I don't blow myself up by not running the blower for the full 4 minutes and the weather holds, I will be out here this weekend...

 

[dell30rb]

Getting the boat back on the trailer is the hardest part.

I put my boat on the trailer last weekend in a solid 20kt crosswind. Crab and kick just like an airplane. A slow crabbed approach to the trailer so you stay on centerline, then kick at the last second so the boat goes on straight.

I would have slipped but that is not an option

 

[SoonerAviator]

A painter is generally a dinghy's tow rope.

You should always use the blower before starting. I will skip the 4 minute rule by walking back and taking a whiff of the blower exhaust. If you had fuel in the bilge, it would reek (if your ventilation is rigged properly, mine is).

If I don't blow myself up by not running the blower for the full 4 minutes and the weather holds, I will be out here this weekend...

If I'm trailering, I just kick the blower on before I back down the ramp. After running down the highway at 65mph for an hour, I can't imagine there'd be anything left that the blower would be helping with. If I'm already in the water, I usually just let it run for a minute or so. Again, if you haven't removed the explosive fumes within the first 30 seconds I don't feel like the additional 3.5 minutes is going to help much more. Blower usually stays on until I get on plane.

 

[Ted]

It looks as though it'll be another couple weeks or so before we get the boat out. This weekend isn't looking that great for weather - chilly and rainy. Maybe that'll give me time to diagnose this current draw issue on the Avalanche.

 

[Ron Lewark]

We've been into boating and water sports since 1976. Watched our kids, grand kids and now a great granddaughter grow up around boats. Mostly at Lake Powell and our mountain lakes here in Colorado. I purchased a new 195 SR Searay in Oct of 1976 and it served us well. We sold it in 2012 for close to what we paid for it, $7000 new sold $5000, it still looked near new. We, my sons and I went in together and decided to upgrade to a newer fuel injected, better out drive. Found a 10 year (2002) old Chaparral 23 ft open bow, Bravo one out drive and 6.2 chevy, had all the bells and whistles from the factory, and only 150 hours on the hour meter, and new condition. I'ts a great boat and the performance is great, 55 mph at Powell and 45 at our high mountain lakes. Quite a change from our old Searay. i wouldn't think twice about getting the boat, just like planes there are good used boats and lot's of junk. If your not up on boats, get a friend that knows them to help you find a good used one.

 

[FormerHangie]

We'd been thinking about a boat for a long while, but there comes a point where you have to either act or stop thinking about it:

Yamaha 212SS

Nice roomy bow for the kids

Fistful o' throttles

Two 1.8 liter DOHC 16 valve fuel injected engines, no waiting!

Watersports stern, complete with daughters.

I spend most of last summer looking for a late model used boat, to no avail. Apparently boat production took a big hit during the recession. This one's a 2015 leftover. We'd wanted a Yamaha 210SX, but they're not making them for 2016 because Yamaha revised their engine lineup last year and they didn't have them ready. This is the same hull with an upgraded interior and the 1.8 liter 180 hp engines rather than the 1.1 liter 110 hp engines. I demoed the 2015 210SX and liked it a lot, but thought it could use a little more power. This boat does not suffer from that deficiency.

 

[Ted]

Is that one of those jet drive boats? We looked at those, but decided that they'd be too small for what we wanted (and we wanted a cuddy cabin). Your daughters look old enough that the cabin has less benefit - our kids have taken a bunch of naps in the cabin.

Ironically, we didn't buy a twin engine boat.

It looks nice!

 

[Bill]

Watersports stern, complete with daughters.

Congrats, going out on the lake is a lot of fun, hope you can find some other families to tie up with!

 

[SoonerAviator]

It ought to be a good boat. I don't prefer the wake behind the jet boats when slalom skiing, especially twins, but they do get out of the hole quick and are pretty low-maintenance. Just don't run over your tow rope or you'll be in for a world of hurt! Yamaha definitely had a winner when they brought that style of boat to the market.

 

[FormerHangie]

Is that one of those jet drive boats? We looked at those, but decided that they'd be too small for what we wanted (and we wanted a cuddy cabin). Your daughters look old enough that the cabin has less benefit - our kids have taken a bunch of naps in the cabin.

Ironically, we didn't buy a twin engine boat.

It looks nice!

Thanks, and yes it is a jet drive. It's essentially two of the engines and pumps from the FX series of Waverunners. Our daughters have definitely outgrown their naps, the older one already has some time at the helm of this boat and is working towards getting her boater's permit. When they're not in the water, they like to pile into the bow with a couple of their friends.

Congrats, going out on the lake is a lot of fun, hope you can find some other families to tie up with!

That sounds like fun. The main reason we chose this one is that it has enough room to take another family. It's rated for nine passengers or 1800 lbs, and there's actually plenty of seating for nine.

It ought to be a good boat. I don't prefer the wake behind the jet boats when slalom skiing, especially twins, but they do get out of the hole quick and are pretty low-maintenance. Just don't run over your tow rope or you'll be in for a world of hurt! Yamaha definitely had a winner when they brought that style of boat to the market.

Yeah, I don't think this is an ideal boat for slalom skiing, a strong skier would pull the stern around. For the stuff we do, pulling an inflatable, a kneeboard, or some mellow (no tricks) wakeboarding it's great. Hole shot is outstanding, BoatTest got it at zero to planing in 2.2 seconds and 0-30 at 4 seconds. By comparison, a Malibu Wakesetter 23 with a 400 hp Indmar got on plane in 3.3 seconds and 0-30 was 5.8 seconds. The two best features of this boat are the cockpit and bow space, and the water access from the stern.

 

[jesse]

It ought to be a good boat. I don't prefer the wake behind the jet boats when slalom skiing, especially twins, but they do get out of the hole quick and are pretty low-maintenance. Just don't run over your tow rope or you'll be in for a world of hurt! Yamaha definitely had a winner when they brought that style of boat to the market.

I've towed more than one new jet boat to the docks over the rope issue. Really ruins their weekend.

 

[Ted]

I've towed more than one new jet boat to the docks over the rope issue. Really ruins their weekend.

Meanwhile, when Laurie backed our boat into a rock, we finished boating for the day, saw a big chunk missing from the prop when we took it out of the water, and I ordered a new prop.

Next time I'll go with the 3-blade instead of the 4-blade.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I've towed more than one new jet boat to the docks over the rope issue. Really ruins their weekend.

Yeah, but at least they've made the process a bit better for the cleanout when it happens, versus trying to take an intake grate and bolts off underwater by feel and then hacking away at the rope with a pocket knife! Either way, tougher to deal with than raising an outdrive and cutting it out.

Meanwhile, when Laurie backed our boat into a rock, we finished boating for the day, saw a big chunk missing from the prop when we took it out of the water, and I ordered a new prop.

Next time I'll go with the 3-blade instead of the 4-blade.

I'm not sure how 3 vs 4 blade is going to matter when backing into a rock, outside of a slightly higher replacement cost if it was SS. The 4-blade will probably run smoother with a chunk out of it than a 3 blade will, all else being equal.

 

[Ted]

I'm not sure how 3 vs 4 blade is going to matter when backing into a rock, outside of a slightly higher replacement cost if it was SS. The 4-blade will probably run smoother with a chunk out of it than a 3 blade will, all else being equal.

My post was incomplete. The boat originally had a 3 blade. We went with the 4-blade after said rock back-up-into. I have since run over a log with the 4-blader.

The 4-blade prop was a bit smoother and also made the boat go a bit faster at idle (as you'd expect) but it lost mid range and top end.

 

[SoonerAviator]

My post was incomplete. The boat originally had a 3 blade. We went with the 4-blade after said rock back-up-into. I have since run over a log with the 4-blader.

The 4-blade prop was a bit smoother and also made the boat go a bit faster at idle (as you'd expect) but it lost mid range and top end.

Ahh, understood. Yeah, we keep the 3-blade SS (original prop we've had for 20+ years) as a backup. We normally run with an aluminum 4-blade due to the much better hole shot for skiing. I don't think we lost more than 2-3mph or so top-end at most, but the 3-blade isn't exactly matched well for pitch on our boat.

 

[Ted]

Ahh, understood. Yeah, we keep the 3-blade SS (original prop we've had for 20+ years) as a backup. We normally run with an aluminum 4-blade due to the much better hole shot for skiing. I don't think we lost more than 2-3mph or so top-end at most, but the 3-blade isn't exactly matched well for pitch on our boat.

I suspect that the 4-blade I picked wasn't optimized for the boat, which was probably part of it. A better 4-blade would probably do the job fine. We go with aluminum rather than SS as it's cheaper and Jesse will be buying the boat from us in a few years anyway most likely. Don't want it to be too nice.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I suspect that the 4-blade I picked wasn't optimized for the boat, which was probably part of it. A better 4-blade would probably do the job fine. We go with aluminum rather than SS as it's cheaper and Jesse will be buying the boat from us in a few years anyway most likely. Don't want it to be too nice.

Yeah the SS is nice for durability, but it can wreak havoc on a lower unit if you hit something as the SS will transmit everything to the gear set as opposed to the aluminum which will just fold most times. The only problem I seem to have with the 4-blade is that if I raise the trim too far, I tend to get blow-out and have to lower the drive a touch until it will bite again. The 3-blade never had the issue, but it's only a minor annoyance. I was thankful for having an aluminum 3-blade on our bass boat when I misjudged a gravel bar many years back while not on plane. Couldn't go above idle for the short trip back to the dock, but it would have been an expensive mistake with SS.

 

[Ted]

So we have a great boat. Starts every time, doesn't burn much fuel for what we do with it, been reliable so far.

Therefore I'm thinking about upgrading for no good reason.

Well, sorta a reason. I'd like to be able to camp on the lake and spend a bit more time out there. Air conditioned cabin would help for that. It'd also make it simple when the house AC goes out (like it's been doing). "Honey, we're going to the lake. That way we have AC."

But, any boat we have we'd keep a trailer boat. So this would mean a bigger truck.

Then I got to thinking about it. Looks like the boats that'd fit what I'm thinking are mostly in the ~30-34 ft range, twin engine express cruisers. How big of trailer boats do you normally see?

 

[gkainz]

just spent the weekend on Flaming Gorge ... man oh man I'm in lust for a boat now.

 

[SoonerAviator]

You're not going to want to trailer anything over 28' in terms of cruisers that have A/C and a generator to run it. The length isn't so much of the big deal, as the beam is. Once you get to 29', most of them are 10'+ beam, which means wide load permitting is necessary. It's not the most difficult thing to obtain in most states, but it's just not that practical finding a ramp that can accommodate something of that size and having to have a dually diesel to tow it is another hassle. You'll be towing 10K+ lbs on a 28' boat with full water/fuel/etc, and 95% of the 28' and under boats that DO have A/C, DON'T have a generator, so you're stuck renting a slip with 40A connections to run the electrics while moored.

The down (up?) side is that most 30' and larger cruisers have twin engines which makes trailering and docking much more manageable. I think you'd want to just leave a 30-34' cruiser in a slip for the most part, and only trailer once or twice a year if you wanted a change of scenery.

 

[Ted]

That's more or less what I thought, which kills the idea for me at this point. I don't want to pay the rent of having a slip, especially with the lake as close and easy to get to as it is (about a 15 minute drive). Plus, since I do all my own work on the boat, it's much nicer to be able to do so at the house. I already have to go to the airport to work on the plane, which is annoying. Granted, the boat is fairly low maintenance, but we do still have work that we do on it.

Long term dream would be to have a boat at the gulf coast we could fly down to for weekends, but that's a long ways off.

 

[Bill]

Long term dream would be to have a boat at the gulf coast we could fly down to for weekends, but that's a long ways off.

Sea Ray has produced the Sundancer 26 in various styles over the years, and some of them have AC, although I don't believe they have gensets. In some ways I'd love a boat big enough to stay out overnight, but on the gripping hand I like the simplicity of my little 21' bowrider. If you do go for something in a slip, I've found older sedan bridges to offer great value for the money.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=sea+ray+sundancer+26+on+trailer&FORM=HDRSC2

If you ever get serious about putting a boat on the gulf coast, let me know. A boat like that would be ideal for a partnership, reduce fixed costs, keep the boat running.

 

[SCCutler]

Sea Ray has produced the Sundancer 26 in various styles over the years, and some of them have AC, although I don't believe they have gensets. In some ways I'd love a boat big enough to stay out overnight, but on the gripping hand I like the simplicity of my little 21' bowrider. If you do go for something in a slip, I've found older sedan bridges to offer great value for the money.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=sea+ray+sundancer+26+on+trailer&FORM=HDRSC2

If you ever get serious about putting a boat on the gulf coast, let me know. A boat like that would be ideal for a partnership, reduce fixed costs, keep the boat running.

We came )just that close( to buying into a partnership in a Bayliner cabin cruising boat thingy on a large, inland lake (Texoma)- might have been fun, but it was at that point that my decision was to waste money on airplanes rather than on boats, a decision I do not regret.

 

[Ted]

Sea Ray has produced the Sundancer 26 in various styles over the years, and some of them have AC, although I don't believe they have gensets. In some ways I'd love a boat big enough to stay out overnight, but on the gripping hand I like the simplicity of my little 21' bowrider. If you do go for something in a slip, I've found older sedan bridges to offer great value for the money.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=sea+ray+sundancer+26+on+trailer&FORM=HDRSC2

If you ever get serious about putting a boat on the gulf coast, let me know. A boat like that would be ideal for a partnership, reduce fixed costs, keep the boat running.

I think at this point, overnights aren't seriously in the running anyway so it's fun to think about but the realities show that if we decide to upgrade, it'll be a more significant endeavor.

I'll definitely let you know if the boat on the coast idea ever becomes a reality, and I agree a partnership would be ideal for that. I view it as a number of years off. Part of the problem at the moment is it'd be about a 3 hour flight each way (assuming we used Galveston, which is the closest gulf coast option). That gets long enough to be something we wouldn't often enough to make truly worthwhile vs. our lake that's 15 minutes away. If one day we move closer to the coast, then I think that becomes a more feasible option.

 

[SoonerAviator]

The Sedan bridge boats do have a lot of usable space versus the "Express Cruisers", especially concerning head room down below. However, towing them becomes an even bigger hassle because the bridge sits so high on the boat. Once it's on a trailer, you start having to really watch your towing route to avoid low overpasses and utility lines overhead. Same goes for those who travel on lakes with low bridges. There's a bridge which separates a small arm of one of our biggest lakes in OK (Grand Lake) and I can easily go under in a runabout, most cruisers with a radar arch or a sedan-bridge aren't going to be able to pass, so they lose the ability to transit under the bridge. Not usually much of an issue on the coastal waters.

 

[Bill]

The Sedan bridge boats do have a lot of usable space versus the "Express Cruisers

Not only that, but because they don't look sporty and stylish, they seem to lose value quicker making them a great value used.

 

[Ted]

20 years ago or so some friends invited me to join their father's day festivities (since in our household there were none). We rented what I now know was a sedan bridge, and I remember really liking it. That is, until one of the engines started dumping oil into the engine bay and we had to take it back. They then gave us what I now am pretty sure was an express cruiser (twin engine, fast thing of some sort). It was fun and we got to have our fishing trip. Once the kids get a bit older I'm sure we'll be wanting to do more fast activities, tubing and skiing, so something that has some speed will continue to be a requirement.

Really, we bought the perfect boat for our needs 2 years ago, and it will continue to be right for some time to come. It's been dirt cheap to own, reliable, easy, etc. But that doesn't stop me from looking at something that burns more fuel.

 

[weilke]

I don't think a sedan bridge is going to be terribly useful for skiing/tubing etc. Judging from most of the sedan bridge boats I see in the marinas, their main function is to sit at the dock while the water slowly eats away at the zincs.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Not only that, but because they don't look sporty and stylish, they seem to lose value quicker making them a great value used.

Yeah, it usually comes down to how you will really use the boat. I prefer camping analogies: Sedan bridges are great if you want a weekend getaway for a family of 4-5 and want to have a "5th wheel camper on the water". Express cruisers in the 29-34' range are a bit more cramped and feel like a smaller "bumper-pull camper", doable for a weekend but you will want to spend most of your time outside above deck. The 26'-28' "pocket cruisers" are like a pop-up camper/tent, doable for an overnight preferably with 2 adults and 2 small kids, but you won't want to be below deck for anything other than sleeping.

 

[Ted]

Yeah, it usually comes down to how you will really use the boat. I prefer camping analogies: Sedan bridges are great if you want a weekend getaway for a family of 4-5 and want to have a "5th wheel camper on the water". Express cruisers in the 29-34' range are a bit more cramped and feel like a smaller "bumper-pull camper", doable for a weekend but you will want to spend most of your time outside above deck. The 26'-28' "pocket cruisers" are like a pop-up camper/tent, doable for an overnight preferably with 2 adults and 2 small kids, but you won't want to be below deck for anything other than sleeping.

That's exactly what I was thinking as well.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I don't think a sedan bridge is going to be terribly useful for skiing/tubing etc. Judging from most of the sedan bridge boats I see in the marinas, their main function is to sit at the dock while the water slowly eats away at the zincs.

There is no cruiser (maybe the pocket cruisers) that makes skiing/tubing much fun. They are heavy, cumbersome in handling and acceleration, and toss a huge wake. Those are all non-starters for skiing, and aside from the wake, not much fun for tubing. You'll be burning a ton of fuel doing it as well. Can you pull skiers behind one? Sure. It is just far from ideal.

It's not different than aircraft in that there's no one aircraft that manages to do all things well. You have to make sacrifices to obtain the things you think are most important. Perfect world: you have a sedan bridge or MY, a runabout/ski boat, a fishing rig, and a jet ski, lol. We have 3 of the 4.