They say "Buy your last airplane first"

Nice plane. But it lists for more than my Bonanza.
I believe in buying your last plane second. This Cardinal would make a great first plane and depending on your ongoing mission may be your last plane.
 
Yeah price is a bit up there... But it does have all of the panel items I'd ever need and a fresh engine.

For my needs (Texas regional flying with the occasional loooong XC) the C177RG is a good fit.
 
Looks good, honestly not a terrible price for the fresh engine and panel, but you could definetly get him to come south on his price a little bit.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Yeah price is a bit up there... But it does have all of the panel items I'd ever need and a fresh engine.

For my needs (Texas regional flying with the occasional loooong XC) the C177RG is a good fit.
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If after careful consideration and long range planning, this plane fits your mission, the price could be justified. Even if you spend a little too much going in, you will lose less than if you buy an inappropriate plane. And the Cardinal is a great plane. I just needed something faster.
 
I bought my bonanza 35 years ago after teaching and learning in a C 152. I purchased a C 172 to teach my son and son-in-law. After two years I still have the C 172 with one son working on his instrument in that plane and the other on his 3rd solo endorsement. As soon as they get their instrument ratings, the C 172 will be sold.
 
I always liked the 177RG, but several people with strong knowledge of them say they don't make their book performance numbers by a wide margin. It's a good looking, comfy plane, but if it won't do what they say I'll stick with mine.
 
I like the 177RG, no better platform for oblique photography, nice and efficient on pipeline as well.
 
Henning said:
For an IO-360? Why?:dunno:
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Five years ago I paid $36k for an O-360 and that was probably too high then. And it was only that much because it suffered a catastrophic failure and there was no usable core for trade and it included engine removal, shipping and re-installation along with several components like mags, alternator, regulator, hoses etc. It also included several months of no charge checks and repairs (minor oil leaks). It didn't include the necessary oil changes.
 
"buying your last plane first" sounds a lot like buying a plane and then dying in a plane crash.


sorry I was up all night.
 
Mike, you do know that importing from Canada will require a DAR conformance inspection, right? Not a huge ordeal, but it does add some cost. If it was under the Owner Maint catagory, that could raise some issues.
 
Henning said:
Mike, you do know that importing from Canada will require a DAR conformance inspection, right? Not a huge ordeal, but it does add some cost. If it was under the Owner Maint category, that could raise some issues.
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No, I didn't know the exact requirements, but knew there was a process for bringing it south that involve FAA inspections and paperwork.

And you're correct that I'd need to add a few lines and some dollars to the purchase budget to make it happen.
 
docmirror said:
I always liked the 177RG, but several people with strong knowledge of them say they don't make their book performance numbers by a wide margin. It's a good looking, comfy plane, but if it won't do what they say I'll stick with mine.
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Then others say that they make them easily - provided you set them up right.

According to a gent I spoke with - almost all of them are flying around with the flaps 5 deployed due to mis-rigging them. The first five degrees is extension - which adds wing area and little bit of lift- but a crapload of drag. . . .

Bring the flap all the way up - and solve your speed problem.

The RGs with the IO-360 do make the 143 book @ 75% - which means 140 at 70% which is usually wot and 2400 rpm.

Plus - its cheaper to overhaul than a 6cyl and its parallel valve so its the bullet proof model - more or less.
 
comanchepilot said:
Its interesting that there are so many guys who need a 260C and none of them have stepped up yet - oh well/

'Polly' flies just fine for me. . .

I would want to specify the 'N' number however when she gets re-registered. . . . we do have our 'vanity.'
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Your deal adds an element of risk in getting it through the inspection. There is are some potential issues that make the deal not very attractive at this price point in the market. The Comanche became popular as a "poor man's Bonanza", since the current market has you priced above a similarly equipped Bonanza, it makes the Comanche less attractive. I'd be very surprised if you find a taker on that deal.
 
comanchepilot said:
Then others say that they make them easily - provided you set them up right.

According to a gent I spoke with - almost all of them are flying around with the flaps 5 deployed due to mis-rigging them. The first five degrees is extension - which adds wing area and little bit of lift- but a crapload of drag. . . .

Bring the flap all the way up - and solve your speed problem.

The RGs with the IO-360 do make the 143 book @ 75% - which means 140 at 70% which is usually wot and 2400 rpm.

Plus - its cheaper to overhaul than a 6cyl and its parallel valve so its the bullet proof model - more or less.
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I have found 140-142 to make a nice cruise speed in the 177RG. If you are light you can get a pretty nice TAS around 12,500.
 
Henning said:
Your deal adds an element of risk in getting it through the inspection. There is are some potential issues that make the deal not very attractive at this price point in the market. The Comanche became popular as a "poor man's Bonanza", since the current market has you priced above a similarly equipped Bonanza, it makes the Comanche less attractive. I'd be very surprised if you find a taker on that deal.
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Thanks Henning - my aircraft is prob worth $90-95k as she sits.

As you mention - aircraft that are well - equipped and well maintained sell at a premium to V-Ref - and I'm asking V-Ref essentially.

i'm not sitting back and saying - 'you do the leg work.' what I'm saying is contact me - lets chat, lets see what the expenses are to importation, make sure the current owner has not made the airplane unimportable without significant expense, and then see where it goes from there.

If there is guy flying a Mooney with 2 growing kids -and needs the range - and lives in a low tax state, this is the perfect deal - since i'm not selling my Comanche due to the tax expense.

There are no 260C's for sale with my mix of avionics for sale for less than $110k. You want pure 1970's six tech - fine- you can find those for $80k - you will not find the offer I'm making.

Its pretty simple to make the offer on the 1975 Cardinal contingent on re-importation. In fact - you simply make the offer with delivery in the US with a US registered airplane - then it becomes the Seller's problem.

This Cardinal has been for sale for a long while - there is a reason for that - its way over priced in the Cardinal market from the raw value equation due to the glass panel features.

That said - I have the perfect airplane for someone - would I sell it for $95k? Probably - if I could get the Cardinal for $88k. Then its a wash. But will they sell it for that? Depends.. . . i'm sure it has not been flying.

So if you want my airplane for $95,000 - make me an offer. I'll likely say yes. And fly it out to you as long as you fly me home.
 
Exactly, your plane as an even trade for this plane is a comp. However you are asking someone else to take the importation risk. That risk would only be worthwhile if they were buying the 177 for $70k, because about the max risk they will be exposed to is $20k. You're asking someone to go through a hassle when they could just buy cash from you with no hassle for the same price.
 
docmirror said:
I always liked the 177RG, but several people with strong knowledge of them say they don't make their book performance numbers by a wide margin. It's a good looking, comfy plane, but if it won't do what they say I'll stick with mine.
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I've only flown one. Climb rate in warm weather was a little anemic, but otherwise it made book performance.
 
Man alive, it would never have occurred to me that you would sell your C, and trading down to a 177RG? I love the Cardinal RG, sweet-flying airplane, but I always found myself crying out for another 400 FPM in climb. Cruise is what it is, and that's OK, and a nice Cardinal RG is a great candidate for TAT's turbo-normalizing (it's a hot rod in the teens when it's blown).

And, for those who don't watch, C-model Comanches hold their value like nothing else - $95G for this plane would be a solid value. But, I already have my plane. ;-)
 
comanchepilot said:
Thanks Henning - my aircraft is prob worth $90-95k as she sits.



As you mention - aircraft that are well - equipped and well maintained sell at a premium to V-Ref - and I'm asking V-Ref essentially.



i'm not sitting back and saying - 'you do the leg work.' what I'm saying is contact me - lets chat, lets see what the expenses are to importation, make sure the current owner has not made the airplane unimportable without significant expense, and then see where it goes from there.



If there is guy flying a Mooney with 2 growing kids -and needs the range - and lives in a low tax state, this is the perfect deal - since i'm not selling my Comanche due to the tax expense.



There are no 260C's for sale with my mix of avionics for sale for less than $110k. You want pure 1970's six tech - fine- you can find those for $80k - you will not find the offer I'm making.



Its pretty simple to make the offer on the 1975 Cardinal contingent on re-importation. In fact - you simply make the offer with delivery in the US with a US registered airplane - then it becomes the Seller's problem.



This Cardinal has been for sale for a long while - there is a reason for that - its way over priced in the Cardinal market from the raw value equation due to the glass panel features.



That said - I have the perfect airplane for someone - would I sell it for $95k? Probably - if I could get the Cardinal for $88k. Then its a wash. But will they sell it for that? Depends.. . . i'm sure it has not been flying.



So if you want my airplane for $95,000 - make me an offer. I'll likely say yes. And fly it out to you as long as you fly me home.
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What tax are you trying to avoid?


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Henning said:
Exactly, your plane as an even trade for this plane is a comp. However you are asking someone else to take the importation risk. That risk would only be worthwhile if they were buying the 177 for $70k, because about the max risk they will be exposed to is $20k. You're asking someone to go through a hassle when they could just buy cash from you with no hassle for the same price.
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or - one could simply make the offer to the seller that you'll pay $xx for the airplane registerable in the US. . .

assuming the airplane was simply taken there - and operated there under US rules [which many Canadians do] then can be easily returned here.

Then the cost is de minimus -

The seller knows that. I've already asked. Lets see what they say.

and yep mike - if i'm taking it home I'll stop by in Texas.
 
SCCutler said:
Man alive, it would never have occurred to me that you would sell your C, and trading down to a 177RG? I love the Cardinal RG, sweet-flying airplane, but I always found myself crying out for another 400 FPM in climb. Cruise is what it is, and that's OK, and a nice Cardinal RG is a great candidate for TAT's turbo-normalizing (it's a hot rod in the teens when it's blown).

And, for those who don't watch, C-model Comanches hold their value like nothing else - $95G for this plane would be a solid value. But, I already have my plane. ;-)
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Its all about the cost to maintain this airframe when I don't need the performance - I had a $15k annual in 2010 and $7 in 2011. She's not gonna hurt anyone for a long long time now - and the tail feathers were done with real Piper parts - Denny Haskins got the last 10 horns they had. I still have the old one thats still good. But we had the tail apart for something else - it made no sense to put it back together without satisfying the SB/AD.

i'm trying to conserve cash right now for retirement. whats a prop balance cost? Thats a silly reason to hit them up.

The issue here is going to be importability. How did they maintain it - and can it all be documented. . . . . then there is the issue of who did the panel.

Thats a lot of glass.
 
JoseCuervo said:
What tax are you trying to avoid?


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Sales. 9%.

the 1031 exchange means its the same aircraft essentially for tax purposes = I checked with the taxing authorities in LA County and the DOE.
 
comanchepilot said:
Sales. 9%.



the 1031 exchange means its the same aircraft essentially for tax purposes = I checked with the taxing authorities in LA County and the DOE.
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1031 is a tax deferral device for the gains on the asset. If you own the plane as an asset in a business, depreciated it down, and now sell it, you would have a capital gain.

That doesn't seem to be what you are contemplating.

Are you going to do this exchange thru a Qualified Intermediary?
 
To the OP-

Mike, you're a Texan. You need and are obliged, to buy a Mooney. You'll enjoy the greater speed on the same fuel burn and lower operating costs. :D
 
I don't see the point in downgrading within categories (neither airplane does 3 miles a minute) unless one buys the assertion the cardinal is significantly (as in >10amu/yr normalized) cheaper to maintain than the current airplane. If the trade is being made in anticipation of mobility issues with age, then the cardinal is indeed an ideal replacement to a low wing single door airplane of any kind.
 
Dav8or said:
To the OP-

Mike, you're a Texan. You need and are obliged, to buy a Mooney. You'll enjoy the greater speed on the same fuel burn and lower operating costs. :D
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+1
And it is my first and last plane.
 
comanchepilot said:
Then others say that they make them easily - provided you set them up right.

According to a gent I spoke with - almost all of them are flying around with the flaps 5 deployed due to mis-rigging them. The first five degrees is extension - which adds wing area and little bit of lift- but a crapload of drag. . . .

Bring the flap all the way up - and solve your speed problem.

The RGs with the IO-360 do make the 143 book @ 75% - which means 140 at 70% which is usually wot and 2400 rpm.

Plus - its cheaper to overhaul than a 6cyl and its parallel valve so its the bullet proof model - more or less.
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I pretty much agree with all of this. I had a pre-buy done on a 177-RG. Unfortunately or Fortunately as the case may be it put the kabash on the purchase. The 177 RG has some issues mainly with the gear and spar corrosion ( name a plane without issues) but those are all resolvable the gear issue with a gear pump warning light and spar corrosion with a good inspection changing CAT tubing to SCAT tubing and applying a corrosion preventative. That said I LOVE the 177 RG, I'll say it again I LOVE the 177 RG. It is comfortable and sexy, Such great lines and it carries a load. I would be happy as a clam flying that plane.

I'll also add that the Comanche is a wonderful plane. I've only ever flown in Ed Freds but it sure is nice and fast and comfy. Yours by the way, is beautiful. I totally get your wanting the 4 banger over the six. Either way you win, two amazing planes.
comanchepilot said:
Sales. 9%.

the 1031 exchange means its the same aircraft essentially for tax purposes = I checked with the taxing authorities in LA County and the DOE.
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OUCH 9% man that is painful! We have a 6% use tax in PA and I thought that was bad. After you buy the plane though there is no tax on parts or Mx. I understand why you would want to do the exchange. Its a wonder how anyone can afford planes with that much tax.
 
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