Theoretical question

Rebel Lord

Rebel Lord

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
581
Location
Texas
Display Name
Display name:
Rebel Lord
Im just reading through the pilot/controller glossary trying to study and I see that "chaff" as in a radar decoy is in there. This got me thinking. What would happen if say mister pilot cut up 100 rolls of the the extra large aluminum foils and dumped them up wind of a ADIZ :D
 
Rebel Lord said:
Im just reading through the pilot/controller glossary trying to study and I see that "chaff" as in a radar decoy is in there. This got me thinking. What would happen if say mister pilot cut up 100 rolls of the the extra large aluminum foils and dumped them up wind of a ADIZ :D
Click to expand...

He'd have a sore hand and a dull scissors.
 
Back in 1969 I was at Lowery A.F.B. in Denver. The runways had been de-commissioned, and they used to let us fly model planes and rockets out there. A couple of buddies and I chopped up some aluminum foil and put it in the nose cone of our 2 stage rocket with the usual talcum powder to make it a little easier to spot when the 'chute deployed. After a successful launch, we noticed planes bound for Stapleton airport started peeling out of the pattern like they were being chased by fighters.. A few minutes later the SPs came screaming up and bailing out of their cars and trucks, guns drawn. Seems our homemade chaff had upset the guys in the tower over at Stapleton. We spent the next couple of weekends polishing the brass rails over at the base HQ. I remember there was a LOT of brass to polish.
 
Shepherd said:
Back in 1969 I was at Lowery A.F.B. in Denver. The runways had been de-commissioned, and they used to let us fly model planes and rockets out there. A couple of buddies and I chopped up some aluminum foil and put it in the nose cone of our 2 stage rocket with the usual talcum powder to make it a little easier to spot when the 'chute deployed. After a successful launch, we noticed planes bound for Stapleton airport started peeling out of the pattern like they were being chased by fighters.. A few minutes later the SPs came screaming up and bailing out of their cars and trucks, guns drawn. Seems our homemade chaff had upset the guys in the tower over at Stapleton. We spent the next couple of weekends polishing the brass rails over at the base HQ. I remember there was a LOT of brass to polish.
Click to expand...


Wow :eek::rofl:
 
Shepherd said:
Back in 1969 I was at Lowery A.F.B. in Denver. The runways had been de-commissioned, and they used to let us fly model planes and rockets out there. A couple of buddies and I chopped up some aluminum foil and put it in the nose cone of our 2 stage rocket with the usual talcum powder to make it a little easier to spot when the 'chute deployed. After a successful launch, we noticed planes bound for Stapleton airport started peeling out of the pattern like they were being chased by fighters.. A few minutes later the SPs came screaming up and bailing out of their cars and trucks, guns drawn. Seems our homemade chaff had upset the guys in the tower over at Stapleton. We spent the next couple of weekends polishing the brass rails over at the base HQ. I remember there was a LOT of brass to polish.
Click to expand...

Lowry AFB, named for 2Lt Francis Lowry, the only Colorado pilot killed in WWI combat.
 
Rebel Lord said:
Im just reading through the pilot/controller glossary trying to study and I see that "chaff" as in a radar decoy is in there. This got me thinking. What would happen if say mister pilot cut up 100 rolls of the the extra large aluminum foils and dumped them up wind of a ADIZ :D
Click to expand...


For a student pilot, you have a rather twisted sense of humor.


I like that!!! :D
 
Interesting idea. So are you going to turn your transponder off first before doing this? Let us know how it works out for you. :lol:
 
There is a process by which chaff employment can be requested, for DOD agencies T least. I'm not sure what tin foil would do to their scope, I think it would depend on how it was cut up. But, there's only one way to find out for sure!
 
bikert said:
Interesting idea. So are you going to turn your transponder off first before doing this? Let us know how it works out for you. :lol:
Click to expand...


Just because your transponder is off doesn't mean you don't show up on radar. ;)
 
On ATC radar it looks nothing like an aircraft. Looks like tiny CB build ups, then the winds diffuse it like the pic I attached.

As Timbeck said, you can turn your transponder off but they'll still see you on radar. Whether or not the facility (FACSFAC) cares about what you're doing is another matter.
 
Velocity173 said:
As Timbeck said, you can turn your transponder off but they'll still see you on radar. Whether or not the facility (FACSFAC) cares about what you're doing is another matter.
Click to expand...
They may or may not. Many ATC radars have the sensitivity dialed way back and rely largely on xpdrs interrogation vice primary radar return.

I can't speak for how the air picture in the ADIZ is managed, but I suspect that in many Class B areas, ATC wouldn't even notice if you dumped a bunch of chaff into the air.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Just because your transponder is off doesn't mean you don't show up on radar. ;)
Click to expand...

It can. Some ARSR sites are just beacon interrogators. Where there is no primary radar having your transponder off does indeed mean you don't show up on radar.
 
The OP is talking about dropping this homemade chaff in the ADIZ. Whether that's DC or off shore, ATC & the long range radar systems that both JSS & FACSFAC use, DO use primary radar. If they can see your chaff, odds are they can see the primary return dumping said chaff. I've seen chaff and aircraft at the limits (60 mm) of my primary radar well into the off shore ADIZ.
 
Velocity173 said:
The OP is talking about dropping this homemade chaff in the ADIZ. Whether that's DC or off shore, ATC & the long range radar systems that both JSS & FACSFAC use, DO use primary radar. If they can see your chaff, odds are they can see the primary return dumping said chaff. I've seen chaff and aircraft at the limits (60 mm) of my primary radar well into the off shore ADIZ.
Click to expand...
Is ATC in the ADIZ using the same source radar as the military in that area?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Is ATC in the ADIZ using the same source radar as the military in that area?
Click to expand...

Off shore? Generally no. FACFAC & JSS use various long range radar systems while terminal ATC is single source (mono static) short range radar. If you read about some of the systems, especially those that JSS uses, they can detect low flying aircraft. I'm sure the distances and altitudes of that detection are classified but it's not something I'd like to test as a pilot.

I can tell you this, I was on position once when a 1200 code was transiting off shore outside of my airspace, in the Warning Area and outside the ADIZ. Sealord called me and asked if I was working him and I said no. Minutes later, ANG F-16s were scrambled after him. So, I imagine they have pretty good radar systems in the area to monitor off shore SC, all the way down from NAS JAX. Just one of their many jobs.

I'd say next time you're in SD go down to North Island and check out the set up "Bear" has. I was right up the road for 2 years and never got around to it.
 
Last edited:
Believe it or not, as an Electronic Warfare Technician in the navy one of my jobs was to fire and maintain the SRBOC (Chaff) systems. We had 4 or 6 launchers (depending of ship) and each had 6 tubes. A round was 50 to 60 pounds and most of that was propellant.

It displayed well on radar and lasted quite awhile as it's pretty fine stuff.

Point being, I don't think homemade chaff made out of aluminum foil would work very well.
 
Captain said:
Believe it or not, as an Electronic Warfare Technician in the navy one of my jobs was to fire and maintain the SRBOC (Chaff) systems. We had 4 or 6 launchers (depending of ship) and each had 6 tubes. A round was 50 to 60 pounds and most of that was propellant.

It displayed well on radar and lasted quite awhile as it's pretty fine stuff.

Point being, I don't think homemade chaff made out of aluminum foil would work very well.
Click to expand...
That reminds me of all the times we launched chaff. They'd make an announcement and a bunch of JOs would come up to the bridge wing to watch. I'd simply go inside and watch it on the SPA-25. I had a much better view.
 
Give it a try,and post what actually happens.
 
roncachamp said:
It can. Some ARSR sites are just beacon interrogators. Where there is no primary radar having your transponder off does indeed mean you don't show up on radar.
Click to expand...

I'd be willing to bet that they are few and far between these days because a lot of them are phased which uses several ASR for redundancy. The OP was talking about the ADIZ. Since these areas are prone to track people who do not want to show up on radar, primary targets are all they have for them. Plus a hot line for the active air defense network.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That reminds me of all the times we launched chaff. They'd make an announcement and a bunch of JOs would come up to the bridge wing to watch. I'd simply go inside and watch it on the SPA-25. I had a much better view.
Click to expand...

True, I'm sure I pointed to the two buttons to push for some JO far more often than actually push them myself. Funny, they never showed up to clean the launchers afterwards though...not even once.
 
Most likely worst you get is a talking to. How it goes depends on who meets you, if anybody even bothers. There's nothing illegal about it.
 
Henning said:
Most likely worst you get is a talking to. How it goes depends on who meets you, if anybody even bothers. There's nothing illegal about it.
Click to expand...

100 rolls of cutup tinfoil dumped? Sounds like littering to me. :lol:
 
bikert said:
100 rolls of cutup tinfoil dumped? Sounds like littering to me. :lol:
Click to expand...

Hmmm... We may have the makings of an aviation based Alice's Restaurant.:lol: "Kid, we found your tail number at the bottom of this pile of garbage...":rofl:
 
Well, to avoid the littering charge, just make a homemade "little buddy." Take some Estes rockets, wrap them in aluminum and trail a couple from the aircraft dangling by a string. Your own homemade decoy system.:D
 
How about Mylar? That can be radar reflective with very little weight added. That would stay aloft well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top