The Trim Stall- Sorting out

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
What I don't get about trim stalls is why the airplane doesn't climb at the trimmed speed. I can understand the nose-high attitude, but cannot rationalize the attitude causing the stall, as it's been beat into my head that excessive AoA causes stalls, not attitude.

I watched a you tube video of a trim stall. If the pilot does not initiate a recovery, will the airplane find it's own equilibrium and recover (assuming it's loaded with forward Cg)? Then what happens?
 
Trim is more complex that. It settles into an angle of attack against the tail, and not airspeed as such. Prop blast increases the "airspeed", or rather the relative wind. Denker's book contains a good discussion.

What video are you talking about?
 
You can answer this one yourself... in your aircraft...

Go up to nice high altitude for some stall practice, then slow to a slow cruise and then simultaneously and smoothly trim full-nose-up and push the throttle forward. As you roll in the trim, push forward to keep the nose down to something reasonably sane for now. You'll be pushing pretty hard in some aircraft. (Checking with a CFI that knows your type first or having them along and briefed on what you're going to try, is a good idea... just in case you're flying something that will not handle this nicely. Since you are flying a Skyhawk, I'm no CFI but I believe you can demonstrate this yourself to yourself safely, as long as you're able to push forward pretty hard. :) )

Now hold the nose down and let the aircraft accelerate as much as it can. Let the yoke slowly come toward you until the nose comes up to where you're just smashing around with the stall horn on, now. Standard slow flight. Looks familiar, just feels wrong because the trim is fighting you.

Now, if you're on the edge of a stall, and the trim is still pushing against you, and it's otherwise stable... it'll fly into a stall if you let go, right? :)

Notice how hard you're pushing. If you didn't push (say during a go-around) how fast would that nose come up as you bleed off airspeed?

The real answer actually depends on the aircraft and how powerful its trim system is. Many aircraft with full-up trim will fly into a stall, even if you give them time to settle down. Others the trim is so wimpy, they won't. All will pitch quickly upward unchecked, past stall AoA usually if they have excess airspeed.

Now... how the airplane behaves after it flies into the stall is a different story... will it be a deep accelerated stall, or a mild "barely got there" stall that'll let the nose fall and do the "falling leaf" thing if you keep the wings level with rudder? That again, is going to be up to the particular aircraft.

Even a poorly rigged vs. a correctly rigged aircraft of the same model, will behave differently. Maybe your airplane likes to drop a wing because the rudder or ailerons are out of rig.

With the STOL kit on our 182, a power OFF stall with full up-trim will settle into a falling leaf with the nose slowly porpoising up and down, nibbling at a stall. Our particular bird has no tendency to drop a wing to either side as long as you lift any gust/turbulence-induced wing drops with rudder.

Any time I check out in a new aircraft, I like to start with slow flight in the practice area, high, and see how it behaves hands-off as much as possible near stall speed. A couple of 172s I flew were so out of rig they'd always try to drop a wing and power plus rudder was needed to recover from the incipient stall/spin. Most Cessna behave pretty well. Rigging is something a lot of FBOs and flight schools ignore on trainers, which is sad.

Sometimes someone has grabbed the bendable rudder trim on the back and cranked it way over to the left (anti-servo, right rudder) trying to be lazy on take-off, which isn't how the silly thing's supposed to be rigged. It's supposed to be bent to make cruise flight straight with no rudder input. Sigh. Or maybe someone just ran into the thing during a pre-flight...
 
Trim is more complex that. It settles into an angle of attack against the tail, and not airspeed as such. Prop blast increases the "airspeed", or rather the relative wind. Denker's book contains a good discussion.

What video are you talking about?

The video is not really relevant only to say I've seen one (and that's my only experience).
 
What I don't get about trim stalls is why the airplane doesn't climb at the trimmed speed. I can understand the nose-high attitude, but cannot rationalize the attitude causing the stall,
You're right - it isn't the attitude, it's the constant continuous "back-pressure" on the elevator caused by the excessive nose up trim.
You can trim some airplanes for a final approach speed with power off, but when full power is applied that changes the air over the elevator so that trim won't hold that speed, but acts like excessive back pressure to increase the AoA.
 
You're right - it isn't the attitude, it's the constant continuous "back-pressure" on the elevator caused by the excessive nose up trim.
You can trim some airplanes for a final approach speed with power off, but when full power is applied that changes the air over the elevator so that trim won't hold that speed, but acts like excessive back pressure to increase the AoA.


And I'm sure someone can link to the certification reference that says the yoke pressure required to reduce the AoA must not be "excessive" (there may be a Ft-lb value as well)
 
And I'm sure someone can link to the certification reference that says the yoke pressure required to reduce the AoA must not be "excessive" (there may be a Ft-lb value as well)

FAR 23.145 gives the requirement for controllability in various maneuvers:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...&view=text&node=14:1.0.1.3.10.2.62.26&idno=14

FAR 23.143 lists the maximum control pressures permitted in the those maneuvers:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...&view=text&node=14:1.0.1.3.10.2.62.25&idno=14

Dan
 
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