the road to my (your?) own LearJet

[petrolero]

There are some good posts in this thread but it is 90% garbage or direct attacks. Such is the innerweb I guess.

I searched the thread and no one has yet suggested that the OP consult with a broker or at least they didn't use the term "broker". Given his inexperience with aviation and the nature of his target aircraft, he would benefit enormously from having someone in his corner to give advice on all the complexities that play into valuations... And simply to help find the right airplane.

I used a paid broker and a mechanic for my second aircraft purchase to keep me from buying a plane that seemed OK but wasn't. No purchase is fool proof, but he definitely helped me make a better decision than I would have alone.

Look up aircraft brokers in your area (or wherever) who have brokered jet transactions. You will get better advice and you won't have to sift through mountains of pot shots from smartass Internet Pilots.

PM me if you want the name of my broker. He may have done some jet transactions. I know he has done some big twins at least. He might be able to point you to a jet specialist.

 

[wsuffa]

Could always buy a Piaggio...

http://www.hgpauction.com/auctions/67478/avantair/

 

[James331]

If you really want a jet forget those old tore up lears and cessnas, get a lower time warbird / trainer or even better something that makes sense like the little Bede BD-5, that's something that's attainable and probably much more fun anyways.

You want bigger and sexier get a L-39


Bd-5

L-39

 

[txflyer]

OP's first post and all his posts made this thread all wrong looking for a bargain entry jet and how to work on it to save money.

Cheap or bargain and jet don't belong in the same sentence with each other.

If you have to ask ...

 

[us AAirways]

Tomato soup can nailed to the backside? Sign me up! I'll take two! Wait, those aren't soup cans, they are window mounted 1960s air conditioning units.

Those are hair dryers.

 

[wsuffa]

Tomato soup can nailed to the backside? Sign me up! I'll take two! Wait, those aren't soup cans, they are window mounted 1960s air conditioning units.

No Saberliner for you!

 

[Luvrv8]

If you just have to have a "jet", go find a Paris Jet.

Single pilot, cheap to buy, burns less than an old Lear.

We maintain one of these. You would be surprised that parts are still around and a damn well built plane. If I could afford the 140 Gallons per hour I would have one.

 

[N747JB]

IIRC the conversion was around $2 million on those! that's a lot of airplane for the price, and I don't think I'd offer them $1 million if I didn't want to own it.

A Citation that has been modded by Sierra is the best deal for old jets. They replace the JT15 engines with Williams FJ44s. They also have a wing mod that lowers takeoff V speeds and increases fuel tankage.

You can buy this nice Sierra Citation for just over $1M.

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...TION-ISP/1980-CESSNA-CITATION-ISP/1318353.htm

 

[Pbtx0]

You know as much as you all call this guy a troll he at least stimulated conversation. We're on page 7 here.

 

[John Galt]

The Lear has always been my preferred plane and I have had no problems in flying it in situations that some of the responders here who claim to be lear pilots would never consider doing. I have been told I have natural talents.

 

[docmirror]

Oh boy - here we go again.

Welcome to POA.

 

[John221us]

Who is JGalt?

The smallest minority is the individual.
-Guess who

"Who is John Galt?" Is a famous quote from Ayn Rand's Atlas Srugged. It was a phrase used in the book to indicate something that couldn't be explained or just was and should be accepted. The quote the OP responded with is also an Ayn Rand quote. For those who have not read the book, it was a distopian novel about a United States that had been over regulated to the point corporation and industrialists could not operate and were going out of business. The states were independent socialistic entities and were referred to as the Peoples Republic of New Mexico, etc... Class warfare was pretty much the main theme of the book. The haves and the have nots. I am pretty sure this thread was more about the economics of owning a jet as a toy rather than being about flying airplanes.

 

[stratobee]

Could always buy a Piaggio...

http://www.hgpauction.com/auctions/67478/avantair/

I'm hoping in 10-15 years they will have sunk to a price level I can afford.. Love those planes.

 

[evapilotaz]

So what? Do you not admit that this was vicarious daydreaming? The closest to a jet I would want would be a gas turbine PC-9. With hardpoints, of course. Um, I mean an A-10.

No it was trolling

 

[3393RP]

IIRC the conversion was around $2 million on those! that's a lot of airplane for the price, and I don't think I'd offer them $1 million if I didn't want to own it.

That's what I was thinking...blurt out "How about one mil?..." and you would be making arrangements.

But it seems to be a nice aircraft.

 

[TCABM]

Can you imagine deplaning a 747 on airstairs?

Did it in 2013 on my first trip on a whale. First class cabin, upstairs no less. Hell of a story from BWI to Doha enroute to yet another trip to the sh*thole of the world.

Sometimes, during peak periods, The military adds additional capacity from the CRAF to meet demand. The carries can fill the seat demand however they want. This trip, UA supplied a whale with full service.

Awesome way to get to a place I've been to so many times I've got one of those 'color in the provinces you've bombed' stickers made up for.

 

[Doggtyred]

I'd like to get my own LearJet and fly it. My preferred budget for this is $600k.

I am not a pilot, but I am very interested in flying my own jet and look forward to pilot training. I don't think I have to explain that on this forum right?

I am well aware that the budget of $600k puts me into late 60's to mid 70's used jets with likely maintenance/upgrade/inspection/overhaul costs in the $50k to $300k range. So that, plus what appears to be a $75k to $500k market value of these older jets puts me at my $600k budget.

I'm trying to figure out an overall, multi-year strategy to make this happen, some questions would be:

- How can I efficiently research the additional costs I will need to consider when jet shopping? Is there a jet-refurbisher out there who takes these 40 year old jets and does the whole whiz-bang to them? That seems like someone who would know.

- Whats the least expensive way to go from absolutely no pilot training to private jet pilot?

- What amount of training would be considered conservatively "safe" and as ready as could be for emergencies? I.e., not the minimum.

- What about also training to become a jet mechanic so I can do the maintenance on my jet myself? How long does that take and how much does it cost?

- What about somehow paying for the jet and my training by becoming a commercial jet pilot and flying my jet for hire? Does the math work out on that?

- Is a major cost of training going to be paying for the thousands of hours of fuel in my jet? (assuming its more expensive than the prop-plane part of the training)

Thanks for any help! I'm very well aware this is an expensive and complex process, but that hasn't stopped any of you has it? :wink2:

Plan on 600-700 pounds per hour per engine cruise for a lear 25. 2.5 hour useable range for a lear 25. And a second pilot to fly with you. Honestly you need to hire the professional pilot and you fly with him for a while. RVSM upgrade will be required or the aircraft will be limited to lower altitudes and your range will drop substantially. The plane is efficient only up in the 30-40 thousand foot altitude ranges. At lift off you have 45 minute of fuel at sea level burn rates.

My point is, buying the plane is the cheap part. Operating the plane is where your costs take hold. Don't forget maintenance, which will be on a schedule.

You don't fly this plane. You strap on a rocket ship. You need hundreds of hours of progressively more difficult experience and training before you are ready to fly something like this. You don't put a teenager with a learners permit into a nascar race car.

Plan on 100k just to get trained up properly to be a COPILOT in your own jet plane.

 

[acpilot]

I have a sneaking suspicion that we're dealing with checkmysix aka benpilot aka Ben.

 

[JHW]

For those who have not read the book, it was a distopian novel about a United States that had been over regulated to the point corporation and industrialists could not operate and were going out of business.

in other words, an accurate portrayal of modern day australia

 

[txflyer]

O.k., if that's how Galt wants to play, this thread needs some Lear Jet porn.

Let's spell it out.

If you own and fly your own Lear, you're going to be banging some hot ***** like this chick with the bodacious tata's below. You can be on autopilot and be rubbing your face all in her titties back and forth ...

 

[StinkBug]

First of all, IIRC, my comment to which you respond was directed to Mari. Mari is a woman. Son, don't make that mistake again.

Gauging by my own admissions, if I were a CFI and was contacted by the OP I would love to be involved in the project of bringing the applicant from zero to hero in his privately owned Lear.

Well my apologies to her.

Point being the average CFI (who bills around $50/hour around here) isn't gonna be type rated or qualified to teach someone in a Lear. Someone with Lear experience is most likely going to be expecting more for their time, since they could get it somewhere else, and wouldn't be interested in dealing with this guy.

 

[Henning]

in other words, an accurate portrayal of modern day australia

The mining and minerals exploitation industry owners the government. Just because they leased off the rights to exploit the minerals to the Chinese isn't an issue of the Government regulating them out of business. It's the top end taking in cash without having to employ anyone. As for manufacturing, it's "She be right" quality control and material import price that keeps that from going anywhere.

 

[JHW]

The mining and minerals exploitation industry owners the government. Just because they leased off the rights to exploit the minerals to the Chinese isn't an issue of the Government regulating them out of business. It's the top end taking in cash without having to employ anyone. As for manufacturing, it's "She be right" quality control and material import price that keeps that from going anywhere.

You didn't see much of doing business then. Try waiting to put up a ladder until a risk assessment is completed, or submitting a job description and compensation package for a new employee to a government fair work commission for approval before he can start work. It's truly a fascist state in disguise.

 

[dtuuri]

Plan on 600-700 pounds per hour per engine cruise for a lear 25.

It's a fact it burns that much while taxiing.

2.5 hour useable range for a lear 25.

Don't know how you figured that. I've been on many 3.0+hrs flights. Of course, that was before the Chief Counsel bastardized the alternate fuel requirement with their interpretation. I always interpreted carrying enough fuel for two climbs to altitude plus reserve and cruise over the alternate. According to their interpretation (they obviously don't know anything about how much fuel it takes to reach altitude), you need enough fuel to make three climbs plus reserve, cruise to alternate and make one missed approach.

At lift off you have 45 minute of fuel at sea level burn rates.

Wellll.... if you're assuming maintaining about 4000# per side(?) on the takeoff roll, I suppose. But just try to maintain sea level with that and see what happens!

You don't fly this plane. You strap on a rocket ship. You need hundreds of hours of progressively more difficult experience and training before you are ready to fly something like this. You don't put a teenager with a learners permit into a nascar race car.

Indeed. I heard someone say once it was the closest thing to being pasted on the front side of a bullet. He must have been thinking about the tiny cockpit.

dtuuri

 

[Henning]

You didn't see much of doing business then. Try waiting to put up a ladder until a risk assessment is completed, or submitting a job description and compensation package for a new employee to a government fair work commission for approval before he can start work. It's truly a fascist state in disguise.

I worked in a Fabrication and Machine Shop in Ringwood (Melbourne) as well as an Aircraft build factory next door building the Cobra kits and planes (also had a set of Sportsman molds) and I worked for Brisbane Ship Construction out of one of the Warren Yacht's sheds in Hement and was there another year fitting out a new yacht for service as project manager and captain. I have seen plenty of Aussie rules and I didn't see them holding back any of the businesses I was involved in. The rules pretty much parallel workplace health and safety rules in the US and Europe as well as typical ILO safety standards. The abattoirs I saw in Queensland that my buddy worked at, there was no safety rule in evidence.

 

[Mike I]

. The plane is efficient only up in the 30-40 thousand foot altitude ranges. At lift off you have 45 minute of fuel at sea level burn rates.

I did an air-to-air shoot a few months back using a Lear 25B as our camera plane, and we had about 2hrs of loiter time at altitudes 6k-10k, and just enough fuel to get back (perhaps 15mins). More than 45 minutes total, but not great!

 

[N747JB]

Loitering is different than going somewhere with the noise levers pushed forward. I could get my Citation down to somewhere under 100 GPH at low altitude for holding or low speed manuvering. But, going 250 knots IAS is was 250 GPH until I got above 10K, then it slowly decreased with altitude. FL350 IIRC was 160 GPH at 350 knots true, less if I could coax it up to 390 or 410. I remember flying a 501 that had fuel gauges that included hours/minutes as well as lbs. We took off out of Greensboro NC heading to FTY about an hour trip, I think. On climb out we showed 45 minutes fuel on the gauges. It was my first time flying a jet and the guy with me just laughed and said we were fine. At cruise it showed something like an hour and 45 minutes worth of fuel.

I did an air-to-air shoot a few months back using a Lear 25B as our camera plane, and we had about 2hrs of loiter time at altitudes 6k-10k, and just enough fuel to get back (perhaps 15mins). More than 45 minutes total, but not great!

 

[kayoh190]

Only on POA can a dude post a picture of a chick with a huge rack standing in front of a Learjet, and the next seven posts continue on about fuel flows and workplace regulations.

 

[Henning]

O.k., if that's how Galt wants to play, this thread needs some Lear Jet porn.

Let's spell it out.

If you own and fly your own Lear, you're going to be banging some hot ***** like this chick with the bodacious tata's below. You can be on autopilot and be rubbing your face all in her titties back and forth ...

A cougar with a boob job? LOL, you don't need a Lear Jet for that, a six pack of Champale will suffice.

 

[Bill]

A cougar with a boob job? LOL, you don't need a Lear Jet for that, a six pack of Champale will suffice.

Cougar hell. She looks to be 5-10yrs younger than me. Wrap it up, I'll take it.

 

[paflyer]

I have a sneaking suspicion that we're dealing with checkmysix aka benpilot aka Ben.

Speaking of which, anyone hear from our over-gross dry ice to OSH tyro?

Then again, maybe we have...

 

[N747JB]

Without my glasses, looks a little like Sarah Palin.

Only on POA can a dude post a picture of a chick with a huge rack standing in front of a Learjet, and the next seven posts continue on about fuel flows and workplace regulations.

 

[Henning]

Cougar hell. She looks to be 5-10yrs younger than me. Wrap it up, I'll take it.

5-10 yrs younger than you IS cougar territory. You're pickins for a Turkey Vulture.

 

[us AAirways]

Nah.....she is too old. Old planes I don't mind, but a woman past her 20s...come on.

O.k., if that's how Galt wants to play, this thread needs some Lear Jet porn.

Let's spell it out.

If you own and fly your own Lear, you're going to be banging some hot ***** like this chick with the bodacious tata's below. You can be on autopilot and be rubbing your face all in her titties back and forth ...

 

[Lance F]

You don't NEED RVSM. For a longer trip in a 24 or 25 we would always ask for and could usually get a straight climb to FL430 or 450. Lots of good reasons to be up there: lower fuel flow, no traffic, above weather and nice view.

 

[John Galt]

You don't NEED RVSM. For a longer trip in a 24 or 25 we would always ask for and could usually get a straight climb to FL430 or 450. Lots of good reasons to be up there: lower fuel flow, no traffic, above weather and nice view.

And there you have it.

 

[RotorAndWing]

And there you have it.

And if you don't plan correctly and ATC holds you below FL290, or ATC cannot accommodate a climb, you could be having to adjust your plans quickly.

And there you have it.

 

[Old Geek]

Cougar hell. She looks to be 5-10yrs younger than me. Wrap it up, I'll take it.

This. I don't see a couger.

 

[Mason]

The Lear has always been my preferred plane and I have had no problems in flying it in situations that some of the responders here who claim to be lear pilots would never consider doing. I have been told I have natural talents.

]

LOL.

And I suppose you have been complimented on the accuracy of your instruments.

Congratulations on sucking in so many people into your bogus thread. I am just amazed at how many people will take a troll seriously.

 

[John Galt]

And if you don't plan correctly and ATC holds you below FL290, or ATC cannot accommodate a climb, you could be having to adjust your plans quickly.

And there you have it.

So what? If that happens I use a little more fuel and I have still saved a fortune in getting my classic lear.