the road to my (your?) own LearJet

All this negativity...

Go for it. More power to you.
 
If you really want an old jet that you can buy cheap and fly yourself.............eventually, a Citation 501 is a good one for single pilots. Under $500K with current inspections, good cosmetics and upgraded avionics. The bad news is you are likely the last owner of any 500 series Citation, next stop is probably the scrap yard.:D
I owned and flew a Citation II s/p for 7 years, sold it in 2007. Fuel was comparably cheap then, and the amount they use will cause you to start drinking, especially now at $6.00 per gallon. Figure 175 gallons for the first hour and 140 thereafter on a 501, with cruise speeds in the 330-340 knot range.
I would recommend getting your private pilots license first, then your instrument rating, then multi engine. Once you get your multi, buy a turbo-prop twin, hire a babysitter to fly right seat. Good speed, much easier/cheaper to own and operate.:yes:
Cheap is not a good word to use in a sentence with the word jet. ;)
 
JGalt said:
I guess the TV's make it into a 40 year old jet eventually...

am I the only one getting turned on by this????

34886_1172850044.jpg
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This photo is a good example how to do your dream on the cheap. Notice the control wheels? It's either a rare Lear 25/24 or someone has been shopping for parts at the salvage yard. Or maybe it's a Lear 49.

Whatever it takes!

:rofl:

Someone is still having fun in XA-LNK...

7253117750_507de1e2fb_z.jpg
 
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Clearly the OP is new to aviation, so I'll humor the questions. He doesn't know what he doesn't know.

Look at the acquisition, fixed, and hourly costs quoted above. If these are no big deal to you, sure go for it.

If you really want to fly it yourself, take lessons. You'll need to start with a piston single, but if money is no object (and you have the time and interest) you'll be able to advance quickly.

When you start talking about older jets, be aware that one reason they are "inexpensive" to buy is because they are not inexpensive to operate. For example, they are a lot less fuel efficient than more modern aircraft. There are other aircraft that would be more expensive to buy, but would be more reasonable to run on an hourly basis. Keep that in mind. The majority of costs in aviation are not the aircraft purchase, but rather operational and maintenance costs.

What is your annual budget and how many hours do you want to fly per year? What is your typical "mission" - ie. How far, how many people, how often? Do you really need to be the "captain" or single pilot, or would just getting some landings/stick time meet your needs?

The fancier the aircraft, the more it's insurance rules (rather than the FAA) that will dictate the experience/training required. If you don't care about having insurance, there is no law that you _have_ to have it - it's not like auto insurance. You can "self-insure" (ie "roll the dice") if you want. Keep in mind though that if nobody will insure you, they likely have a good reason based on their experience with similar pilots.
 
This is the same troll we have seen here again and again.

Why would we entertain someone without a PPL asking how to buy and fly the space shuttle?

This is beyond stupid.

ignore.
 
Money and insurance aside, can you get a private license in a single pilot jet like a Citation?

Would be interesting doing ground reference maneuvers.
 
champ driver said:
My first question of many is why do you feel you need to fly around in a jet?

I should have added, do you have a business or business's around the country that would be enhanced by owning a jet, or would you be just riding around burning handfuls of money out the tailpipes?
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Ain't America great? What is it to you what or why he wants to fly his Lear? Lemme guess 'money out the tailpipe', makes you sound like an Al Gore minion. Suck a lemon.
 
dtuuri said:
Hmmm... How 'bout that. I logged 43.3 hours in that one back in 1976 & 1977. Long time, no see.

dtuuri
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Are you that old? I had no idea. In '76 I graduated HS. In '77 I started for my PPL but quit prior to solo. Taking state in water polo took precedence.

Anyway, you old codger, always good to hear from your bones. :yes:
 
JHW said:
there are plenty of people who start in multi engine planes. Not that it matters on this case.
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The OP is talking of a ME aircraft. Why wouldn't it matter to start in a ME aircraft? I'm not trying to be problematic, I really don't know what to make of your comment.
 
dans2992 said:
Clearly the OP is new to aviation, so I'll humor the questions. He doesn't know what he doesn't know.

Look at the acquisition, fixed, and hourly costs quoted above. If these are no big deal to you, sure go for it.

If you really want to fly it yourself, take lessons. You'll need to start with a piston single, but if money is no object (and you have the time and interest) you'll be able to advance quickly.

When you start talking about older jets, be aware that one reason they are "inexpensive" to buy is because they are not inexpensive to operate. For example, they are a lot less fuel efficient than more modern aircraft. There are other aircraft that would be more expensive to buy, but would be more reasonable to run on an hourly basis. Keep that in mind. The majority of costs in aviation are not the aircraft purchase, but rather operational and maintenance costs.

What is your annual budget and how many hours do you want to fly per year? What is your typical "mission" - ie. How far, how many people, how often? Do you really need to be the "captain" or single pilot, or would just getting some landings/stick time meet your needs?

The fancier the aircraft, the more it's insurance rules (rather than the FAA) that will dictate the experience/training required. If you don't care about having insurance, there is no law that you _have_ to have it - it's not like auto insurance. You can "self-insure" (ie "roll the dice") if you want. Keep in mind though that if nobody will insure you, they likely have a good reason based on their experience with similar pilots.
Click to expand...

Other than your 'roll the dice' comment and your 'you'll have to start with a piston single', I agree with you.

It may be outside the experience of most pilots but what is the obstacle, other than money, which would prohibit or restrict the applicant from beginning his training in a ME jet and ending with a type rating in the same?
 
3393RP said:
This photo is a good example how to do your dream on the cheap. Notice the control wheels? It's either a rare Lear 25/24 or someone has been shopping for parts at the salvage yard. Or maybe it's a Lear 49.

Whatever it takes!

:rofl:

Someone is still having fun in XA-LNK...

7253117750_507de1e2fb_z.jpg
Click to expand...
Better than sex.

Imagine yourself the pilot in that last picture. What happened before that pic? Was she lower, would you take her lower? So what no one was around to witness? You did it! You did it because you knew what you were doing. PPL you say? How awesome is that? Flying, the act, the art of flying, isn't to check the boxes of some FAA-maton. It is the art, the joy, which provides lift. F them who decry otherwise. Art in motion. Go fly.

I see her as still descending at 150 fpm to level off at belly level +15. Why not?
 
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Richard said:
The OP is talking of a ME aircraft. Why wouldn't it matter to start in a ME aircraft? I'm not trying to be problematic, I really don't know what to make of your comment.
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Because the OP is not actually going to do anything remotely like this. Of he were, he wouldn't be trolling on internet boards about it, ,he would be doing it.

I know someone who did exactly that. He chartered a flight for a trip, it was in a cheyenne. He decided he liked it so he called up piper for a referrel, hired a recommended instructor as an employee, hired an agent and bought a plane, and learned to fly in his airplane as they used it for trips. After a couple year's of trips he cut the instructor loose. It worked out well for him. Point is he just did it. He didn't ask 1000 questions about it, while working in thoughts combining poverty, business jets, and cost sharing with his other rich friends.
 
Richard said:
Other than your 'roll the dice' comment and your 'you'll have to start with a piston single', I agree with you.

It may be outside the experience of most pilots but what is the obstacle, other than money, which would prohibit or restrict the applicant from beginning his training in a ME jet and ending with a type rating in the same?
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He could start with any plane he wants, you are right.

You disagree that "self-insurance" is "rolling the dice"? How so?
 
Richard said:
How far back into your non-CFI career would you have to go to find $30-50/hour is attractive?
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I think his point was that most people qualified to do the job he is describing could make considerably more than that elsewhere. It's not that a certain amount is attractive, it's that a higher amount is more attractive.
 
StinkBug said:
I think his point was that most people qualified to do the job he is describing could make considerably more than that elsewhere. It's not that a certain amount is attractive, it's that a higher amount is more attractive.
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Could, in today's economy that's a pretty big could.
 
James_Dean said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thurmon_Munson
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Although Munson's death is a parable about the dangers of being a low time pilot in a complex aircraft, he made the same mistakes many pilots in much more mundane aircraft have made and died from.

Munson had jumped into a Duke before buying the Citation, so he was definitely fast tracking it. I think he had a little less than 200 hours in the Duke when he bought the jet. He had about 25 hours in the Citation when he took his piston CFI and another guy for a ride. Like a teenager in a 172, he had to show off his skills.

They made a couple of T&Gs before Munson decided to do a no flap landing. I seem to recall a runway change was also made. On final he got slow, didn't monitor his airspeed, and failed to account for the spoolup delay. The aircraft crashed short of the runway.

If Munson had exercised a little more self discipline he wouldn't have attempted the no flap landing. I always thought it was a really odd thing to do. I guess he wanted to impress his piston CFI by doing something out of the ordinary and that one one of the few tricks he had learned in just 25 hours of flying the jet.

The CFI survived the crash, that's how we know the details of the failed approach. The instructor said Munson had done very well in the Duke, and in terms of work load flying the Citation probably wasn't much more difficult than the Duke.
 
Any chance skynewbie did not take my advice about making boating his dream? And instead is working on a jet hobby? Tone of the posts are eerily familiar...
 
MachFly said:
You have to understand, most people here fly light singles and aren't really big fans of people who just want a jet.
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I wouldn't say that. If JGalt has the cash and time to own a personal jet, I'd say go for it! Wouldn't we?

Anyway, JGalt, what folks are trying to convey is keeping a personal jet in the air isn't going to require buckets of money, it's going to require dump trucks of money. If you got it, flaunt it!
 
Replying after only reading page 1. Not going to bother with pages 2-5. Just wanted to say thank you for giving me the much needed Monday morning chuckle.
 
Richard said:
Ain't America great? What is it to you what or why he wants to fly his Lear? Lemme guess 'money out the tailpipe', makes you sound like an Al Gore minion. Suck a lemon.
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Hey, I'm just asking a simple question on whether he really needs, or just wants a jet.
I see people all day long that can afford to fly around in jets, that's their business and this is America, so that's fine with me.
You're the one bringing politics into this discussion, not me.
 
3393RP said:
This photo is a good example how to do your dream on the cheap. Notice the control wheels? It's either a rare Lear 25/24 or someone has been shopping for parts at the salvage yard. Or maybe it's a Lear 49.
Click to expand...
Heh, heh. I'd say it's an early LR-24 (narrow windshield defog outlets) or late LR-23 (jet pump switches).

dtuuri
 
Easiest way to do it is to hook up with FSI, and get all your training there from the ground up. They can hook you up with type ratings and all. And who knows somewhere during your training, you may decide that you want a Jetstar,or GIII, instead of a lear.
 
Richard said:
Are you that old?
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No, I'm not. In fact, back when I was flying around in those planes at EJA I was heavily into roller skating in my spare time. Recently went back to it and I'm one of the younger ones at the sessions! Next to flying airplanes, there's nothing like doing the flea-hop, Northeast Ohio style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQW-Gi_QtIc
Now, if I can just remind my feet how to do it without falling on my bony hip again! :redface:

dtuuri
 
JGalt, you are aiming too low. You should buy a 1970s or early 1980s vintage 747. You can pick up one for as low as $250k up to $400k. Yes the subsequent costs will mount but don't be too concerned about that. Just think all you could do to pimp out that interior. :yikes:
 
There is another possibility, and that by the time you have your PPL and IR done that Cirrus might be ready with the Vision jet. That's even a single engine, so you wouldn't need a multi and it's light enough you wouldn't need a type rating. I'm sure it would cost well over $1m but it would likely be cheaper in the overall strategy, especially operationally.

And you can get prop turbines with nearly the performance but with a lot lower operational costs.
 
JGalt said:
I'd like to get my own LearJet and fly it. My preferred budget for this is $600k.

I am not a pilot, but I am very interested in flying my own jet and look forward to pilot training. I don't think I have to explain that on this forum right?

I am well aware that the budget of $600k puts me into late 60's to mid 70's used jets with likely maintenance/upgrade/inspection/overhaul costs in the $50k to $300k range. So that, plus what appears to be a $75k to $500k market value of these older jets puts me at my $600k budget.

I'm trying to figure out an overall, multi-year strategy to make this happen, some questions would be:

- How can I efficiently research the additional costs I will need to consider when jet shopping? Is there a jet-refurbisher out there who takes these 40 year old jets and does the whole whiz-bang to them? That seems like someone who would know.

- Whats the least expensive way to go from absolutely no pilot training to private jet pilot?

- What amount of training would be considered conservatively "safe" and as ready as could be for emergencies? I.e., not the minimum.

- What about also training to become a jet mechanic so I can do the maintenance on my jet myself? How long does that take and how much does it cost?

- What about somehow paying for the jet and my training by becoming a commercial jet pilot and flying my jet for hire? Does the math work out on that?

- Is a major cost of training going to be paying for the thousands of hours of fuel in my jet? (assuming its more expensive than the prop-plane part of the training)

Thanks for any help! I'm very well aware this is an expensive and complex process, but that hasn't stopped any of you has it? :wink2:
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Call and ask a maintenance provider how much a 12 year inspection typically costs on an old Lear, that should take care of your daydreams in a hurry.

Every 12 years, the wing comes off the fuselage. We are talking like 500 man hours just disassembling and reassembling the airplane. That doesn't include any time waiting for parts or labor on repairs.
 
Sac Arrow said:
There is another possibility, and that by the time you have your PPL and IR done that Cirrus might be ready with the Vision jet. That's even a single engine, so you wouldn't need a multi and it's light enough you wouldn't need a type rating. I'm sure it would cost well over $1m but it would likely be cheaper in the overall strategy, especially operationally.

And you can get prop turbines with nearly the performance but with a lot lower operational costs.
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Turbojet requires a type rating regardless of weight.
 
Remember, all commercial airliners are 737s, unless they're really big, in which case, they're a 747. All private jets are LearJets. All small private propeller driven aircraft are Cessnas.
 
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