the road to my (your?) own LearJet

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by JGalt, Aug 10, 2014.

  1. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
    I'd like to get my own LearJet and fly it. My preferred budget for this is $600k.

    I am not a pilot, but I am very interested in flying my own jet and look forward to pilot training. I don't think I have to explain that on this forum right?

    I am well aware that the budget of $600k puts me into late 60's to mid 70's used jets with likely maintenance/upgrade/inspection/overhaul costs in the $50k to $300k range. So that, plus what appears to be a $75k to $500k market value of these older jets puts me at my $600k budget.

    I'm trying to figure out an overall, multi-year strategy to make this happen, some questions would be:

    - How can I efficiently research the additional costs I will need to consider when jet shopping? Is there a jet-refurbisher out there who takes these 40 year old jets and does the whole whiz-bang to them? That seems like someone who would know.

    - Whats the least expensive way to go from absolutely no pilot training to private jet pilot?

    - What amount of training would be considered conservatively "safe" and as ready as could be for emergencies? I.e., not the minimum.

    - What about also training to become a jet mechanic so I can do the maintenance on my jet myself? How long does that take and how much does it cost?

    - What about somehow paying for the jet and my training by becoming a commercial jet pilot and flying my jet for hire? Does the math work out on that?

    - Is a major cost of training going to be paying for the thousands of hours of fuel in my jet? (assuming its more expensive than the prop-plane part of the training)

    Thanks for any help! I'm very well aware this is an expensive and complex process, but that hasn't stopped any of you has it? :wink2:
     
  2. champ driver

    champ driver Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    595
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Champ driver
    My first question of many is why do you feel you need to fly around in a jet?

    I should have added, do you have a business or business's around the country that would be enhanced by owning a jet, or would you be just riding around burning handfuls of money out the tailpipes?
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  3. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,793
    Location:
    Statesville NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    The simple fact that you are asking...

    "Whats the least expensive way to go from absolutely no pilot training to private jet pilot?"

    "What about also training to become a jet mechanic so I can do the maintenance on my jet myself? How long does that take and how much does it cost?"

    "Is a major cost of training going to be paying for the thousands of hours of fuel in my jet? (assuming its more expensive than the prop-plane part of the training)"

    Tells me you really can't afford a jet. If the word cheap is any part of your vocabulary, you cannot afford to fly a jet, much less own one. But good luck everyone should have goals.
     
  4. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
    Do you mean as opposed to another type of aircraft? If so because of the high altitude, long range, and excitement factor. Plus the relatively luxurious accomodations for passengers.
     
  5. B350ATP

    B350ATP Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    317
    Location:
    DFW Area
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    B350ATP
    All of the jets in that price range will soon be noise non-compliant and banned in entire USA. In addition, many due to avionics, simply no way will ever be made to comply with mandatory 2020 ADS-B requirements.

    Those jets "long range" is 1000 NM and you are looking for a fuel stop. "High altitude" assumes they are RVSM'ed (many are not due to age) and if not, plan on 28,000 or below.

    They are cheap for a reason.

    Plan on YOU being copilot, NO INSURANCE will "endorse" a private pilot jet pilot with 100 hours TT to fly around single pilot, which by the way would be the Cessna Citations.

    Good Luck
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  6. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2011
    Messages:
    10,949
    Location:
    Twin Cities, MN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jonesy
    Regardless of age, the velocity of money when dealing with jets is truly breathtaking. My wife overseas the operation of her company corporate Citation. They spent over $600K on an interior refurb and avionics upgrade two years ago. It's just coming back online after overhauling both engines (including renting engines to keep it flying during the overhaul process.) They budgeted $1.6M for the overhaul.

    No maintenance on it costs less than $40K a pop, and goes into six figures very quickly. These are not machines you operate on a tight budget.

    Finally, I'm not aware of any LJ certified for single-pilot operation, so budget for a co-pilot.
     
  7. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
    Can you cite a reference to the noise abatement issue?

    2020 is far enough away to where I'm not really worried about it being obsolete by then.
     
  8. B350ATP

    B350ATP Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    317
    Location:
    DFW Area
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    B350ATP
    Not right now. Google is your friend

    Seeing how you have NO ratings right now, you need to get those. To include TYPE RATING for said jet. 2020 is 5 years, or 60 months away, as we are late 2014 now. We are talking JAN-1-2020, not DEC-31-2020.
     
  9. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
    Yep I'm aware of this too. I have some friends who could fit the bill for that and follow along with me on this adventure, but I just want to keep the discussion simple.
     
  10. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
    Okay just checking..so you don't know where you heard that from?
     
  11. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    3,539
    Location:
    M94 Airport Manager
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skywag
    They are already obsolete.
     
  12. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
    Yes. Pretty much all my toys work that way :/
     
  13. B350ATP

    B350ATP Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    317
    Location:
    DFW Area
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    B350ATP
    oh I don't know, FAA, ICAO, NBAA, etc. google it
     
  14. MachFly

    MachFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,514
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MachFly
    For starter you'd need to get your private, commercial, instrument, and multi certificates. That can be done for about 25K. Then if you want to be the captain on the jet you'd need a type rating, the prices vary depending on the aircraft. You can find a ballpark cost here: http://www.mullers.net/mike/Training%20Cost/.
    For a light Jet (under 12,500lb) only the captain would need a type. So what you can do is hire a captain and fly is as an FO without a type. This would help build up your experience. It would also make insurance cheaper because the captain would ideally have quite a bit of experience.

    If you like, you can buy a Jet now and lease is to a charter company to make money for you. In parallel you can be getting your ratings and hours.
     
  15. Norman

    Norman En-Route Gone West

    Joined:
    May 3, 2013
    Messages:
    4,861
    Location:
    cone of confusion
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    KPTK
    A fool and his money are soon parted.
     
  16. B350ATP

    B350ATP Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    317
    Location:
    DFW Area
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    B350ATP
    by the way, your thread title says "Learjet" in the title. You have NO CHANCE to

    1. Complete private pilot and associated Lear type
    2. Acquire a jet for stated budget of 600K
    2b. Convince an insurance carrier to insure you
    3. All of the above- With enough time to fly it around and see any use out of it by the various upcoming deadlines

    Nice to daydream tho isn't it

    Absolutely not going to happen
     
  17. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
    Hooray the first answer that means anything!

    Do I still need the commercial license if I'm just flying myself + copilot?

    Can I technically fly with just the private license under VFR?

    Where does the 25k go and does that include fuel in my jet? Or is that all prop-training/someone elses plane?

    Who are you paying insurance to and what are the minimum requirements?

    I realize now I'm starting to ask questions that I should just look up myself..but its always nice to hear a good explanation..
     
  18. Challenged

    Challenged Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,427
    Location:
    Louisiana
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Challenged
    If I had $600,000 and desperately wanted to own a jet, I'd probably start some sort of business with that money and hopefully make $6,000,000 with it.
     
  19. B350ATP

    B350ATP Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    317
    Location:
    DFW Area
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    B350ATP
    (checking out of this thread)

    bye
     
  20. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
    Why not?

    They're for sale at $75k to $300k

    Why not?

    Prove it.

    Looks like a hit a nerve. Some of you guys are real sensitive about this stuff huh? Lol. As if whatever plane you fly "makes sense" why a learjet somehow doesn't.
     
  21. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
    Why is an aircraft any worse to spend money on than cars or houses?

    This is a pilots forum right? You guys own and fly planes right? :confused:
     
  22. Sam D

    Sam D Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,334
    Location:
    Petaluma, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sam D
    Who is JGalt?
     
  23. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
    :)

    The smallest minority is the individual.
    -Guess who
     
  24. Luigi

    Luigi Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Messages:
    339
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luigi
    Call any flight school and ask them your questions, it is hard to take you seriously.
     
  25. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
    Why? How else would a civilian approach owning and flying a jet?
     
  26. CTLSi

    CTLSi Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    929
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CTLSi
  27. MachFly

    MachFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,514
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MachFly

    By the way, listen to what B350 says...he knows what he's talking about.
     
  28. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,388
    Location:
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shawn
    JGalt...what you will learn is that unless you can justify it for business purposes or are uber wealthy and have money to burn, a jet is not realistic or any way financially fesasble for for an independent pilot for private operation. The purchase price is the least of your worries. Even those that CAN afford it are going fractional memberships over ownership. I have the same goal as you, but the more I learned about general aviation and the true costs of operating and maintaining jets (even though the purchase price on line seems obtainable) the more I realize it would take the lottery to accomplish!

    Keep in mind you are asking in a general aviation forum where single engine put put planes are the norm. Although there are pilots and owners of all levels here, its is kinda like asking on the VW forum of how to buy a Ferrari!...you will gets LOTS of answers why it is NOT feasible!

    You have to start with your private pilots license anyway...go get a bitchin single airplane then work your way up the ladder trading up as you go.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  29. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
  30. tree96

    tree96 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Ohio
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    tree96
  31. MachFly

    MachFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,514
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MachFly
    Some may require a lot of maintenance.


    You have to understand, most people here fly light singles and aren't really big fans of people who just want a jet.
     
  32. CT4ME

    CT4ME Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,320
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CT4ME
    As a fictional character, John Galt isn’t burdened with forming a plan of action to address the realities that define the non-fiction world we live in (as a creation of Rand’s imagination, he also wasn’t burdened with the realities of 1957). Speculating on his views is nothing more than a Rorschach of our own conflicted and ambivalent, economic views. Would John Galt be more disturbed by the plethora of governmental regulations, or the government’s bailout of too-big-to fail institutions? Would he have greater disdain for the “Occupy Wall Street movement, or the “moochers” who “earned” huge bonuses shortly after their banks were bailed out? I also suspect that, for both different and similar reasons, he would have very little respect for the realities and stark compromises within both US political parties.

    It’s too bad that the set of solutions to today’s highly complex and intertwined economic challenges aren’t quite as binary as those of the fictional characters we create. So “Who is John Galt?” That’s a question for each of us to answer as we so choose.
     
  33. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
    Thanks for the great info!! :D
     
  34. Luigi

    Luigi Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Messages:
    339
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luigi
    I just told you, drive out to your local airport that has a flight school.

    Seems like 5 Million is a good starting bankroll.
     
  35. MachFly

    MachFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,514
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MachFly
    For the budget you're looking for I recommend you look into some turboprops such as King Air, Conquest, or Merlin. They have almost everything you want but are a lot cheaper and more capable in some ways. Also don't require a type ratings so the training is cheaper.
     
  36. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
    Well said.

    I gotta say though..you go to anywhere in socal and people blow way more than $1 million on their houses, cars, college, etc..I really don't see what the big deal is about a $600k jet.. a few S-class mercedes and a house in burbank will set you back twice that much.
     
  37. JGalt

    JGalt Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JGalt
    What are you basing this on? 23's and 24's sell for $75k to $300k. Upgrade/fix add $300k. Where is the extra 4 million going?
     
  38. Luigi

    Luigi Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Messages:
    339
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luigi
    Hell, if you got it, flaunt it! More power to you!
     
  39. MachFly

    MachFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,514
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MachFly
    I doubt anyone at a local flight school would be able to tell him anything about buying and training for flying a jet.
     
  40. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,388
    Location:
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shawn
    That is where you need to do more research...the purchase price is the easy part...the operational costs factoring in fuel, maintenance and upgrades especially in a sub $1mill jet is what makes the prospect unrealistic for the (above) average Joe.