The Price of Admission

[Greg Bockelman]

I try not to be pessimistic about the future of GA, but I got to thinking, which is a dangerous thing.

When I got my Instrument Rating, in the dark ages, a VOR, a Glideslope reciever, a DME and a Transponder would get you virtually anywhere you wanted to go. Add an ADF and there wasn't an approach you could not shoot. All of these receivers used ground based transmissions and were free for the taking, so to say. Fast forward to today, and everything is being replaced by GPS. Problem is, in order to USE GPS, you have to SUBSCRIBE to the updates. Subscriptions run 250 to 300 bucks a YEAR to stay up to date. Maybe one can find cheaper, but...

Seems like at least a basic GPS is becoming the minimum equipment to access the system.

In trying to figure out how to equip my plane for the flying I do, I can't seem to justify the expense of an IFR GPS, but without it, I become limited in where I can go. Hmm.

Sorry, just ranting.

 

[Bob Bement]

Your point is well taken.

 

[Skip Miller]

Sorry, just ranting.

It is a rant with some truth to it, Greg. If you are flying IFR, soon the IFR GPS will be the price of admission.

However, if you are flying VFR, your rant is not true. There are still plenty of pilots who enjoy flying planes with no radios or electronic nav equipment. Of course, the utility (aside from recreation) of VFR flight - even if the plane is IFR equipped - is pretty limited by the Wx, at least here in the northeast.

-Skip

 

[Everskyward]

Seems like at least a basic GPS is becoming the minimum equipment to access the system.

I'm not sure that's entirely the case since VOR airways still exist. However, I have noticed that at many small airports where NDB was the only approach, now RNAV (GPS) is the only approach since many or the NDBs have been decommissioned. ILS BC is also going away in the US although they are still quite a few in Canada. I haven't seen many VOR, LOC, or front course ILS approaches being eliminated though. The other thing I've noticed is the amount of electronic gadgetry people want as their minimum equipment for flying IFR, much of which I had never heard of, let alone flown with, 10 years ago. It makes me wonder how I ever survived.

 

[brcase]

Can you buy and install and IFR GPS for what it would have cost you "back when" to buy and install an ADF, DME and second VOR reciever? Would of course have to adjust for "back when" dollars for todays dollars.

True the Annual cost of the data base is a new expense but it is really any more than the annual maintenance on the ADF, DME and second VOR it replaced?

I don't know the answer, but I suspect a lower end IFR GPS is probably comparable in cost and has more capability.

Brian

 

[Bob Noel]

I try not to be pessimistic about the future of GA, but I got to thinking, which is a dangerous thing.

When I got my Instrument Rating, in the dark ages, a VOR, a Glideslope reciever, a DME and a Transponder would get you virtually anywhere you wanted to go. Add an ADF and there wasn't an approach you could not shoot. All of these receivers used ground based transmissions and were free for the taking, so to say. Fast forward to today, and everything is being replaced by GPS. Problem is, in order to USE GPS, you have to SUBSCRIBE to the updates. Subscriptions run 250 to 300 bucks a YEAR to stay up to date. Maybe one can find cheaper, but...

Seems like at least a basic GPS is becoming the minimum equipment to access the system.

In trying to figure out how to equip my plane for the flying I do, I can't seem to justify the expense of an IFR GPS, but without it, I become limited in where I can go. Hmm.

Sorry, just ranting.

What airports can't you get into without an IFR GPS?

Sure GPS can be useful, but if your aircraft already has VOR, DME, and ADF, what more will you really need?

 

[somorris]

Problem is, in order to USE GPS, you have to SUBSCRIBE to the updates. Subscriptions run 250 to 300 bucks a YEAR to stay up to date.

I think you hit the nail right on the head. Besides the annual subscription, I suspect that in 10 years most of the IFR GPS units that are popular now will be obsolete and you will have to buy a new one (kind of like our computers are now). I like GPS, but have thought for a long time it shifts a lot of the cost from the FAA to pilots and the Air Force.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Yes it is ridiculously expensive however I try to view each expense in some manner that allows my mind to accept it. Ie for the gps updates -$300. Compare that to your annual expenditures on flying and it is more palatable.
Another mind trick for large purchases is, "yeah, that gps cost $3000, but I will keep the airplane for 15 years, so that is only $200 per year!"

If none of this intellectual footwork does what you need, there is always your favorite adult beverage to dull the pain.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

However, if you are flying VFR, your rant is not true.

Well, the post was intended in the context of IFR flying.

There are still plenty of pilots who enjoy flying planes with no radios or electronic nav equipment.

Yeah, I know. I used to own one. Fun flying, but not too practical for going places.

Of course, the utility (aside from recreation) of VFR flight - even if the plane is IFR equipped - is pretty limited by the Wx, at least here in the northeast.

-Skip

Thing is, I have always completed the missions I have started. It may take me significantly longer, but I always got where I wanted to go.

I'm not sure that's entirely the case since VOR airways still exist.

Entirely? No, but more and more each year.

However, I have noticed that at many small airports where NDB was the only approach, now RNAV (GPS) is the only approach since many or the NDBs have been decommissioned. ILS BC is also going away in the US although they are still quite a few in Canada.

BINGO. And a lot of the airports that have NEW instrument approach procedures are all GPS based.

I haven't seen many VOR, LOC, or front course ILS approaches being eliminated though.

Well, there won't be many ILS or LOC approaches eliminated, but VOR's? I think there will be fewer rather than more in the future

Can you buy and install and IFR GPS for what it would have cost you "back when" to buy and install an ADF, DME and second VOR reciever?

The purchase price of a GPS is not a major hurdle. It is the installation and the certification that can EASILY add up to much more than the cost of the unit. Inflation adjusted, I still think the package you mentioned would still cost less.

but it is really any more than the annual maintenance on the ADF, DME and second VOR it replaced?

Uhh, yeah. I have owned my plane for 7 years and have not spent ANYTHING on my radios other than the purchase of one to replace one that went bad.

I don't know the answer, but I suspect a lower end IFR GPS is probably comparable in cost and has more capability.

Capability, yeah, but at a cost. I can put an SL30, a PS audio panel and a Garmin Transponder in for about 8 grand. And no subscription fees. I can't do that with even a low end GPS.

Thing is, at 50 hours of flying a year, the subscriptions don't make financial sense. I can't justify it. But the fact that there will be fewer ground based approaches means that without it, I may be shut out of the system.

You can rationalize anything, but at some point reality has to take over. Until my lot in life changes, I will live with a VFR or VOR based radio package. IFR GPS just does not make sense. As much as I would like to have one.

What airports can't you get into with an IFR GPS?

Ones with ILS approaches only, but that wasn't the point I was making. The question I have is what airports can I get into WITHOUT a GPS?

Sure GPS can be useful, but if your aircraft already has VOR, DME, and ADF, what more will you really need?

Now, nothing. But in the not too distant future?

Yes it is ridiculously expensive however I try to view each expense in some manner that allows my mind to accept it. Ie for the gps updates -$300. Compare that to your annual expenditures on flying and it is more palatable.

Yeah but rationalization only goes so far.

 

[twdeckard]

ADS-B is the one that is going to kick everyone's butt.

For me the flying is going to bifurcate: (fantasy) that 7AC that I will fly most often and (reality) the WAAS equipped C182 that I divvy up with a large club. The increase in cost on the cross country side has more or less scaled with my need for more utility.

My personal fear is that the nordo champ gets squeezed out somehow.

I used to laugh at the AGATE displays. I was convinced the economics didn't support it. Now I am trying to figure out how I am going to get synthetic vision somehow.

Yes the costs have gone up, but gas, fuel, oil and leaks still constitute my majority expense. Now if the electrics come to fruition in my lifetime (and somehow a nation of coal powered cars works out) then perhaps the operating costs will miraculously come down and charts, and database updates will be a significant factor.

not sure the point of this rambling. I guess I am amazed I have such a capable FMS in my spam-can at whatever the cost, and I am worried about the yellow airplanes.

Todd

 

[astanley]

On the one hand, I sympathize with your point Greg.

On the other, as technology changes, this is a common refrain. What was the cost when an IR pilot had to replace A-N radio compasses with VOR heads?

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[Greg Bockelman]

On the one hand, I sympathize with your point Greg.

On the other, as technology changes, this is a common refrain. What was the cost when an IR pilot had to replace A-N radio compasses with VOR heads?

Cheers,

-Andrew

Again, it isn't the hardware costs. Yes VOR replaced AN. But both were ground based and no annual subscription fees.

The hardware costs are tolerable, it is the subscription fees that blow me out of the water.

For no more than I use it.

 

[Bob Noel]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Noel
What airports can't you get into with an IFR GPS?

Ones with ILS approaches only, but that wasn't the point I was making. The question I have is what airports can I get into WITHOUT a GPS?

.

oops. big typo on my part. I meant to ask what airports you can't
get into withOUT an IFR GPS.

Sorry about that.

 

[bbchien]

Again, it isn't the hardware costs. Yes VOR replaced AN. But both were ground based and no annual subscription fees.

The hardware costs are tolerable, it is the subscription fees that blow me out of the water.

For no more than I use it.

That's just the federal plan to transfer costs to the users.
Suggestion: Find someone with a GNS 430W, one of you get a double subscription, and you split it. TWO copies is only $100 more.

 

[Erice]

Is Jeppesen the only source for GPS database updates? With the NACOmatic site for downloading charts and approach plates for FREE, I wonder why GPS updates are still only available on a subscription basis?

 

[dmccormack]

Fast forward to today, and everything is being replaced by GPS. Problem is, in order to USE GPS, you have to SUBSCRIBE to the updates. Subscriptions run 250 to 300 bucks a YEAR to stay up to date. Maybe one can find cheaper, but...

It's the trend across the board -- transfer costs to the user.

Airline fees on baggage is a prime example -- less labor needed as the pax schlep their own bags.

 

[Bob Noel]

It's the trend across the board -- transfer costs to the user.

Airline fees on baggage is a prime example -- less labor needed as the pax schlep their own bags.

Self-loading cargo!

 

[dmccormack]

Self-loading cargo!

Exactly -- don't get me started on insurance....

 

[Ted]

Your point is well understood, Greg, but for the amount that you also would an IFR GPS, you probably don't need one.

There's one other option. I don't know if Garmin does this, but I know King does. On the King subscription, it ends up being for 13 downloads (buy 12 get one free). The theory is that if you download one a month, then you use up your 12 in the year. Figuring that you won't plan on flying the 195 into IMC during icing season, that eliminates a good 1/3 of the year right there, and then you'd only update the GPS when you plan on flying IFR. Furthermore, you could do it when you only planned on flying IFR and needed the GPS approach. Might be a good option for you or others who don't plan on using it much.