The barrel roll

Diana

Final Approach
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Diana
I ran across this today:

Practically speaking, while doing a barrel roll, should the ball always be centered?
Answers and opinions welcome.

I've looked through all my aerobatic books and only one mentions the ball. The rest mention being "balanced" or "coordinated". William Kershner wrote that the the ball stays in the middle.

I read that there are two different ways to look for the reference point in the barrel roll. Since I've only done a few, I'll be trying both ways to see which one works/feels better.
 
Y'know, of course I am no aerobatics expert (I'm still just an amateur pilot), but watching the BBC video of Bob Hoover, I suspect it's pretty close to being centered.

Just a guess, though. I've only enjoyed two incipient spins with an instructor, long ago.:dunno:
 
Still owns it and still work'in on keeping the ball centered when it's supposed to be centered. Haven't worked on barrel rolls lately. I'll have to get back to those.

The trick is finding time when my wife doesn't want to go up for a ride. She enjoys sight seeing way too much.:)

I guess things could be worse.
 
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Also, the answer is YES! The ball should be centered throughout.

Takes lots of practice and I've found the Citabria to be more challanging than some other high performance acro aircraft.
 
Also, the answer is YES! The ball should be centered throughout.

Takes lots of practice and I've found the Citabria to be more challanging than some other high performance acro aircraft.
Well, I went up and tried a few today. Good thing no one was making a video of those! :redface:
 
Well, I went up and tried a few today. Good thing no one was making a video of those! :redface:

Just post the hammerhead video again and say they are barrel rolls. Most don't know the difference anyway.
 
I ran across this today:



I've looked through all my aerobatic books and only one mentions the ball. The rest mention being "balanced" or "coordinated". William Kershner wrote that the the ball stays in the middle.

I read that there are two different ways to look for the reference point in the barrel roll. Since I've only done a few, I'll be trying both ways to see which one works/feels better.

Hi Diana;

Barrel rolls are the easiest maneuver to perform, and one of the hardest to perform correctly.

The reason for this is that the roll is performed through 3 dimensional space so you're flying the airplane through the roll using ALL your controls simultaneously with coordinated pressures. ANY misapplication of pressure with aileron, elevator, or rudder will destroy the symmetry of the roll by changing the roll axis.

Add to all this that a barrel roll can be flown with positive g (required) through a roll arc that includes the tightest the aircraft's envelope will allow up to and including a 90 degree change of heading at the roll apex, and it begins to become clear why this roll can be difficult to perform properly.

Ball centered is optimum, but watching the ball centers you on a single visual cue which is something no aerobatic pilot ever wants to do.
In aerobatics, we NEVER focus on a single cue. The trick is to use available cues to perform a maneuver properly. This means getting your eyes outside the aircraft and basically off the panel.

Most good acro pilots will fly through a maneuver referencing coordination cues away from the ball. Using outside visual references and keeping the g on your butt is the way to fly a barrel roll.

The best way to learn to do it right is to use the classic 90 degrees at the top inverted reference point at the beginning. Plan the roll to have the airplane exactly inverted at your chosen reference point 90 degrees to the roll initiation heading. In other words, pick your point under the wing as you start the roll entry and seek that point inverted on the nose as you pas through the 90 degree heading change at the top.
Use that inverted reference point to gauge whether your control pressures have been correct attaining it. You will be watching for excessive or lagging bank angle vs the pitch input. These two factors determine whether you make your 90 degree point early or late.
Rudder you can feel in the seat. Too much and you skid the bank. Too little and you slip the bank. Watch the nose!!!! It's the BEST BALL YOU"LL EVER HAVE FLYING ACRO!!!!
Dudley Henriques
 
Hi Diana;

Barrel rolls are the easiest maneuver to perform, and one of the hardest to perform correctly.
You have a good point. I'm finding that it's not all that easy to learn for some reason. I'm looking forward to the time when it's easy to perform.

The reason for this is that the roll is performed through 3 dimensional space so you're flying the airplane through the roll using ALL your controls simultaneously with coordinated pressures. ANY misapplication of pressure with aileron, elevator, or rudder will destroy the symmetry of the roll by changing the roll axis.

Add to all this that a barrel roll can be flown with positive g (required) through a roll arc that includes the tightest the aircraft's envelope will allow up to and including a 90 degree change of heading at the roll apex, and it begins to become clear why this roll can be difficult to perform properly.

Well, so far I've experienced all the "common errors" listed and then some. At 180 degrees, my wings aren't level. I'm coming out of it with a much higher air speed than I like or want. I don't know if I'm pulling too hard in the pull up or not hard enough and I think I'm not letting up on back pressure enough at the top. I'm not sure if I'm using too much aileron or not enough.

I had the center point picked out ahead and off to the side and lost it on the pull up and didn't find it again.

Ball centered is optimum, but watching the ball centers you on a single visual cue which is something no aerobatic pilot ever wants to do.
Well, I normally don't look at it (eyes are outside), but was basically answering the original question. Although, I do glance at my airspeed and RPM on occasion.

The best way to learn to do it right is to use the classic 90 degrees at the top inverted reference point at the beginning. Plan the roll to have the airplane exactly inverted at your chosen reference point 90 degrees to the roll initiation heading. In other words, pick your point under the wing as you start the roll entry and seek that point inverted on the nose as you pas through the 90 degree heading change at the top.
Maybe I looked at the wrong place at the beginning of the roll.

Well, so far my initial barrel rolls have been an interesting combination of a loop and a roll, but certainly aren't pretty or what I'm hoping for. Although, on my score sheet from competition, I have lots of comments about "barreling" on the maneuvers. :redface:

Thank you for your comments Dudley, I appreciate it. :)
 
You have a good point. I'm finding that it's not all that easy to learn for some reason. I'm looking forward to the time when it's easy to perform.



[Well, so far I've experienced all the "common errors" listed and then some. At 180 degrees, my wings aren't level. I'm coming out of it with a much higher air speed than I like or want. I don't know if I'm pulling too hard in the pull up or not hard enough and I think I'm not letting up on back pressure enough at the top. I'm not sure if I'm using too much aileron or not enough.]

One thing that can really screw you up in visualizing a barrel roll is in how you deal with it reference wise when visualizing it to yourself. Since the roll is really a roll and a loop performed at the same time your point of reference is important. For example, at your "180 degree" position in the roll, you are 180 degrees through the roll and 180 degrees through the loop BUT this position has been achieved at only 90 degrees change in heading. In barrel rolls using the maximum roll axis capable to the aircraft (ANY aircraft) , it's this meeting at inverted that constitutes the main reference point. (Keep in mind that barrel rolls are possible using a much narrower roll axis than this 90 degree change in heading at the 180 degree point. Any roll you perform using 3 dimensions coupled with positive g all the way around in that roll is a barrel roll.
For the "classic" barrel roll, diving in after your last clearing turn to pick up entry airspeed, pick a good reference point 90 degrees off your wingtip. That point will be where you want the airplane to be inverted at the top halfway through the roll. At that point you will want to be looking directly at it inverted passing through wings level. The trick with barrel rolls is to get your control pressures all blended in correctly so that you achieve that reference point exactly inverted wings level.
The back side back to level flight is just more of the same only this time the reference point will be back under your wing again and the new cues are the recovery altitude, the entry airspeed regained and wings level flight.
Doing a good barrel roll isn't easy Diane and you will find that the only way to get it down pat is by practicing it over and over again, letting the airplane instruct you. The airplane will tell you immediately if the roll is good or bad. In acro, the aircraft is the finest instructor you will ever have. It NEVER lies. You can't cheat it. The aircraft is brutally truthful in telling you how good or bad you are doing at any given instant in time.

[I had the center point picked out ahead and off to the side and lost it on the pull up and didn't find it again.]

Easy to do with a high wing barrel roll. Learn to pick it back up through the windshield as you come on up and around. After a while, as you get more familiar doing the rolls, picking up the point will be natural for you.

[Well, I normally don't look at it (eyes are outside), but was basically answering the original question. Although, I do glance at my airspeed and RPM on occasion.]

Yes, these are peripherals and you are right to include them in your acro scan. Fixed pitch prop especially; watch that RPM if using power. You don't want an overspeed coming down the back side of a maneuver.


[Maybe I looked at the wrong place at the beginning of the roll.]

You'll find as you progress that rather than looking at any single point, you will have not only the point you pick, but the terrain around that point as well. In effect, you will be maneuvering into and out of a reference point "area" where your scan will be picking up a continuation of never ending visual cues that form a pattern you are following through the maneuver. Make no mistake, your POINT will still be your target, but using the surrounding terrain, getting to the point will become easier as you start using a more "complete maneuvering picture".

[Well, so far my initial barrel rolls have been an interesting combination of a loop and a roll, but certainly aren't pretty or what I'm hoping for. Although, on my score sheet from competition, I have lots of comments about "barreling" on the maneuvers. :redface:]

If you want to experience an almost perfect barrel roll with not much fuss, simply begin a straight climb at normal barrel roll entry airspeed, then roll off that climb by continuing the back pressure diagnally instead of straight back. Don't forget to feed in a bit of inside rudder to coordinate. Ease off the rudder once into the roll as bottom rudder will pull the nose down as you pass knife edge. Reapply rolling rudder again on the back side. The airplane should roll right on around for you. Just monitor the RPM if fixed pitch.

[Thank you for your comments Dudley, I appreciate it. :)

Hey..no sweat. My pleasure! :))
 
Not that I ever got any good at barrel rolls but Dudley's point about the 90 degree heading change at the 180 degree roll point is key IME. When I first started trying this maneuver I didn't even understand that the airplane was supposed to make two 90 degree turns as part of it and somehow the lack of that little tidbit led to a lot of frustration.

As to the excess speed on exit, I'd first suspect that you're not getting close enough to zero G at the top (180 roll), my tendency was always to keep too much aft stick there which inevitably led to a too fast pullout.

WRT the ball centered thing, coordinated does imply a centered ball but at the very light g force you should encounter at the top, there is very little incentive for the ball to behave consistently, at zero G the ball cannot possibly function at all. So if someone riding along tells you the ball didn't stay centered, just tell them this is why!
 
Diana, do you have access to a copy of Duane Cole's "ROLL AROUND A POINT"?
I think that's the only aerobatic book that I don't have. I DO have his book Conquest of Lines and Symmetry.

Well, I tried a few more just now. The first few were pitiful and then with the next one I came out on a 270 degree heading. Seems like it's going pretty well now at the inverted phase heading 90 degrees. Wings are even level when inverted. But, on the back side it isn't as pretty. The last one was borderline OK, but didn't feel like it looked like going around a barrel.

As to the excess speed on exit, I'd first suspect that you're not getting close enough to zero G at the top (180 roll), my tendency was always to keep too much aft stick there which inevitably led to a too fast pullout.
I think you're right Lance. I worked on that part today and it seemed to help.

Doing a good barrel roll isn't easy Diane and you will find that the only way to get it down pat is by practicing it over and over again, letting the airplane instruct you. The airplane will tell you immediately if the roll is good or bad. In acro, the aircraft is the finest instructor you will ever have. It NEVER lies. You can't cheat it. The aircraft is brutally truthful in telling you how good or bad you are doing at any given instant in time.
Dudley, you sum it up really well. :yes:
 
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