That was close: DCA Runway Incursion 9/20

Discussion in 'Aviation Mishaps' started by flyingron, Sep 20, 2022.

  1. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    22,686
    Location:
    Catawba, NC

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
  2. midcap

    midcap Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2015
    Messages:
    1,476
    Location:
    South Louisiana

    Display name:
    midcap
    That has to be a bad angle because it looks like that plane on approach was gonna land in the water
     
  3. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    11,621
    Location:
    FL

    Display name:
    Salty
    Approaches to Reagan are all water from both sides.
     
  4. midcap

    midcap Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2015
    Messages:
    1,476
    Location:
    South Louisiana

    Display name:
    midcap
    I get that, it just looks like he doesn't have enough room. I am going to pull up the runway map
     
  5. midcap

    midcap Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2015
    Messages:
    1,476
    Location:
    South Louisiana

    Display name:
    midcap
    I just looked at the aerial view, makes sense now
     
  6. 1000RR

    1000RR Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2019
    Messages:
    318
    Location:
    Florida

    Display name:
    1000RR
    Looks like the plane on the ground was taxiing to RWY 19 and crossed RWY 15 (airplane on short final to RWY 15 had to power up).

    ...have a phone number for you to call, advise when ready to copy
     
    Baked Potato likes this.
  7. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    10,783
    Location:
    Lone Jack, MO

    Display name:
    Greg Bockelman
    I hope that the guy on final would have gone around on his own. In fact, he should have initiated a go around on his own.
     
  8. Baked Potato

    Baked Potato Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2022
    Messages:
    265

    Display name:
    Baked Potato
    Just before the video starts - do we know that 2784 was told to hold short? Was it his fault or an ATC or ground control screw-up?
     
    Lindberg likes this.
  9. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    22,686
    Location:
    Catawba, NC

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    The AA2784 may still have been on ground. Ground control (not in the video) is yelling the same thing at him however.

    Listening to ground he was cleared to "cross 15 at K, monitor tower on the other side." She amends that by telling him "no delay, traffic on two-mile final."
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2022
  10. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    6,529
    Location:
    Alexandria VA

    Display name:
    Brad Z
    For those unfamiliar, the conga line of planes is for runway 19. The plane landing was for runway 15. AA2784 was crossing runway 15-33 on the parallel taxiway to the departure end of runway 19.
     
  11. TrueCourse

    TrueCourse Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2019
    Messages:
    691

    Display name:
    TrueCourse
    Since it was VFR I’m sure the crew was already discussing it and prepared to since they had the premium view of what was developing. They probably had a decision point, but any delays after a certain point would give the controller an anxiety attack, like it did. Notice how calm the crew responds after being given the go-around clearance. Don’t get me wrong, this was a big deal. Ground control should have seen this developing and the crossing traffic - looking left towards short final as they crossed an active -should have seen the jet staring them down.
     
  12. Jeff Oslick

    Jeff Oslick En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Messages:
    4,790
    Location:
    Fullerton, CA

    Display name:
    Jeff Oslick
    Next time, maybe look down the final for the active landing runway *before* you cross, not as you cross... :eek:

    Good reminder that we need to be there to back up ATC. It's perfectly ok to say "no thanks" sometimes...
    I wonder if by the time that traffic was called as "no delay, traffic on a 2 mile final", it was already at 1 mile, or less.
     
    Steve Costello likes this.
  13. TrueCourse

    TrueCourse Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2019
    Messages:
    691

    Display name:
    TrueCourse
    Yes, that’s what I meant. ‘Clear left’, ‘clear right’, or ‘final clear’ is the way I’ve always done it and wrote SOP for it and can’t imagine it not being for anyone else.
     
  14. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4,663
    Location:
    Dallas, Texas

    Display name:
    RyanShort1
    Don't engines on jets take a moment to spool up, though?
     
  15. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,704
    Location:
    Nashville, TN

    Display name:
    Larry in TN
    We don't fly the last 500', or sometimes 1,000', at flight-idle. We have the engines spooled in case a go-around is required.
     
    mcdewey likes this.
  16. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    14,147
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Do you have a link to that?
     
  17. Lindberg

    Lindberg Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    5,433
    Location:
    North Texas

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    Was it an incursion if the plane on the ground was cleared across and that landing traffic never touched down? Is there required separation between aircraft on final and aircraft on the ground?
     
  18. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,704
    Location:
    Nashville, TN

    Display name:
    Larry in TN
    The FAA defines runway incursion as, "Any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take off of aircraft."

    Separation standards are that the runway must be clear when the landing aircraft reaches the runway threshold.

    You don't have to have a loss of separation in order to have a runway incursion.
     
  19. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    22,686
    Location:
    Catawba, NC

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    https://archive.liveatc.net/kdca/KDCA1-Gnd-Sep-17-2022-2100Z.mp3

    The clearance is at 44:10 in the recording. The recording is pretty poor. You can't hear the aircraft at all in most cases. THere's also noise covering up the ground controller.

    44:10. Ameican 2784 Runway 19 taxi ...[noise]... Runway 15. And monitor tower on the other side.

    44:45. Affirmative. Cross runway 15 at Kilo.

    45:10. And American 2784. No delay across Runway 15, traffic on two-mile final

    47:00. American 2784 straight head keep going ahead. American 2784 go ahead.

    The problem is we don't know where the plane was at various points in this sequence and whether AA2784 dawdled crossing the runway or whether the ground controller cut it too close. There seems to be about four minutes from the time that she told him "no delay" and the time she issued the "keep going" instruction. Given E175 approach speed that sort of puts the plane four miles out on the "no delay" call.

    What is clear from both the ground controller and the local controller instructions is that they failed to use the proper terminology in their panic. The ground controller's instructions aren't clear (and this is probably where he was listening). The tower at least says "Go straight ahead QUICK I got traffic short final."

    From 7110.65:

    2−1−5. EXPEDITIOUS COMPLIANCE a. Use the word “immediately” only when expeditious compliance is required to avoid an imminent situation.

    Such is also echoed in the Pilot Controller Glossary. Most of us are conditioned when we hear IMMEDIATELY from ATC as an indicate that the instruction needs urgent compliance.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2022
  20. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    14,147
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Any time an airplane is on a runway when it's not supposed to be, it's an incursion regardless of whether or not there is a loss of separation. If there is a loss of separation, it's either an Operational Error if the controller's fault, or a Pilot Deviation if the pilots fault.

    2. During arrival operations, ensure the following:
    (a) An aircraft/vehicle has completed crossing prior to the arriving aircraft crossing the landing threshold
     
  21. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages:
    4,273

    Display name:
    midwestpa24
    Almost looks like there wasn't a lot of room for the American to get across. My opinion, the controller was trying to stuff as many aircraft across the runway on the limited taxiway as possible before the arrival, but ran out of time and/or space.
     
    Flying Keys and Let'sgoflying! like this.
  22. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    14,147
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Yeah. I was thinking American wasn't to excited about hurrying it up because of all the planes on the other side.
     
  23. Lindberg

    Lindberg Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    5,433
    Location:
    North Texas

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    The incoming aircraft was going around well before he crossed the threshold. So seems like an almost runway incursion.
     
    luvflyin likes this.
  24. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    14,147
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    It was an Incursion. May not have been a loss of separation. But that doesn’t change the fact that it was an Incursion.
     
  25. Lindberg

    Lindberg Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    5,433
    Location:
    North Texas

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    The crossing airplane was cleared across. The airborne aircraft was not landing at the time it crossed the threshold. What aircraft was on the runway incorrectly?
     
  26. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    14,147
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    The crossing aircraft. Look at it this way. The Incursion caused the Go Around, which prevented a loss of Separation, so therefore there was no Operational Error or Pilot Deviation. Blame for the Incursion is almost certainly ATC’s.
     
  27. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages:
    4,273

    Display name:
    midwestpa24
    The landing aircraft was attempting to land at the time that the crossing airplane was clear to cross, hence the incursion that caused the go around.
     
  28. Pinecone

    Pinecone Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    May 24, 2022
    Messages:
    1,224
    Location:
    MD

    Display name:
    Pinecone
    Then the incursion was a controller error. If the airplane was cleared to cross, but there was not sufficient time for him to cross before the landing traffic had to go around.
     
  29. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    10,783
    Location:
    Lone Jack, MO

    Display name:
    Greg Bockelman
    Also it sounds like the crossing traffic took his own sweet time crossing. It’s never good form to spend any more time than necessary on or near an active runway.
     
    nrpetersen and Mxfarm like this.
  30. Jeff Oslick

    Jeff Oslick En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Messages:
    4,790
    Location:
    Fullerton, CA

    Display name:
    Jeff Oslick
    I think he was concerned (correctly) about the plane in front of him pulling forward enough for him to have room to not have his tail hanging over the hold short line. Looking at the airport overhead, the hold short line for runway 15 in that box before 19 is almost 100' from the edge of the runway. Me thinks the controller tried overstuff the can.
     
  31. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2013
    Messages:
    1,745

    Display name:
    Sluggo63
    The hold short line means nothing when you’re exiting the runway.
     
  32. Lindberg

    Lindberg Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    5,433
    Location:
    North Texas

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    The landing aircraft's clearance was cancelled before he crossed the threshold, so at that point he wasn't landing. So what's the required separation between a taxiing aircraft and a aircraft going around?
     
  33. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages:
    4,273

    Display name:
    midwestpa24
    Incorrect. The hold short line indicates the edge of the Runway Safety Area. If any part of your aircraft is beyond the line, you are still in the Safety Area. At a controlled airport especially, you are not clear of the runway until you have completely cross the hold short line.
     
    Todd82, Plano Pilot and Jeff Oslick like this.
  34. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    14,147
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    There isn’t any separation criteria in that situation.
     
  35. Pinecone

    Pinecone Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    May 24, 2022
    Messages:
    1,224
    Location:
    MD

    Display name:
    Pinecone
    In that case, I would not have started across.
     
  36. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2013
    Messages:
    1,745

    Display name:
    Sluggo63
    I'm going to call this a draw, and split the points with you.

    You are clear of the runway as soon as you cross the runway edge, not the hold short line.

    (Here's where I concede that I'll split the points)

    But, you have to be able to continue to taxi unimpeded to the hold short line (that's the part that I didn't remember).

    So, you are/can call clear of the runway as soon as you pass the runway edge, but you have to be able to (and are required to) continue to taxi past the hold short line.

    Ref: AIM 4-3-20

     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2022
  37. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,480
    Location:
    Nebraska

    Display name:
    Cap'n Jack
    And then you have this guidance:
    http://www.faraim.org.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/aim/aim-4-03-14-108.html
     
  38. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,905
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    I think some of you don’t know how to define runway incursion.
     
  39. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    14,165

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    “Go straight ahead quick!” I guess that phraseology works. The taxiing aircraft doesn’t have to be past the hold short lines since they’re crossing and not approaching the runway. They do have to be clear though by the time Brickyard crosses threshold. Hard to tell from the vid if that happened or not. Doesn’t really matter though since the aircraft was given a go around before crossing threshold anyway.
     
  40. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2013
    Messages:
    1,745

    Display name:
    Sluggo63
    Interesting. At least the FAA is consistently inconsistent.

    I'm still going with the Chapter 4 definition I posted (past the runway edge but unimpeded to the holding position markings).

    I found a bunch of other references that echo the Chapter 4 definition. I'm thinking the Chapter 2 one was an oversight.

    https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/atpb_october2016.pdf

    https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pcg_html/glossary-c.html