That $100 thing

steingar said:
They get a lot for their money in Belgium. Health care, child care, retirement, a lot. The folks I talked to seemed pretty happy with it.
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Are they happy about it, or just used to it?

I've spent some time on and off in various parts of Europe on business and heard similar comments. But I always wondered if the people I was talking to were just trying to make it sound better than it really was. Once I started talking "off the record" to a friend of mine and his wife over there, I started hearing a little different story. Taxes are very high in a lot of countries over there to cover retirement, medical, and all the rest, so their take-home pay seems very low to our standards and that seems to raise the cost of living. There isn't much left over after you buy groceries and buy gas that costs up to 4x what it costs in the US. But, in the US, if you pay for your own medical insurance, fund your own IRA or other retirement plans, and cover your own other things, you still don't have much left over after groceries either. Maybe it's a wash, but at least here it's my choice.
 
steingar said:
No offense, but you really need a new accountant.
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I only wish that would help.

There really is no magic, or loopholes, or escape from personal taxes; ordinary income especially. The B.S. hubbub around "The Buffett Tax" is really nothing more than he is primarily deriving his personal income from dividends and capital gains, taxed at 15% vs. his secretary at ordinary income levels.

Remember the "outrage" around Theresa Heinz-Kerry? Everyone got in a twist over her almost zero tax rate on ~$1M in income. All of that was because she bought GOVERNMENT issued tax free bonds.

Sorry for the thread creap... back to user fees!
 
steingar said:
They get a lot for their money in Belgium. Health care, child care, retirement, a lot. The folks I talked to seemed pretty happy with it.
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LMFAO

it works out great for the people who never work for anything, speaking of which were you not given your plane? ( I would love to win EAA's cub)
 
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dennyleeb said:
LMFAO

it works out great for the people who never work for anything
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Sorry, the folks I met were mostly in the scientific community, though the folks at the bed and breakfast rather liked their deal as well. They all went to work every day.
 
Matthew said:
But, in the US, if you pay for your own medical insurance, fund your own IRA or other retirement plans, and cover your own other things, you still don't have much left over after groceries either. Maybe it's a wash, but at least here it's my choice.
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I pay about $50k/year on the things you mention here for myself and my family, and I'm considering switching to a high deductible HSA (for example). I don't consider tax-deferred retirement an "expense" per se, considering I'm paying myself.
 
steingar said:
Sorry, the folks I met were mostly in the scientific community, though the folks at the bed and breakfast rather liked their deal as well. They all went to work every day.
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yeah did you read the above article

scientific community. college professors or government jobs?

bed and breakfast. yeah i can see that
 
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steingar said:
They get a lot for their money in Belgium. Health care, child care, retirement, a lot. The folks I talked to seemed pretty happy with it.
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Your plane is boarding, sir....

FordTri1.jpg
 
dennyleeb said:
yeah did you read the above article
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Just did. A bunch of overheated hyperbole that ignores the route of most of their problems. Pretty typical for right wing stuff.

dennyleeb said:
scientific community. college professors or government jobs?
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Professors, technicians, students. A few folks from the biotech industry, though I didn't have a chance to ask them. Memorable was the young lady with the two kids. She was very grateful there was subsidized day care so she could continue working and use her training. Many women here drop out of the game altogether in part because affordable child care is virtually nonexistent.

dennyleeb said:
bed and breakfast. yeah i can see that
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Why, their so slovenly running a business that they wan to leach off everyone?
 
steingar said:
Just did. A bunch of overheated hyperbole that ignores the route of most of their problems. Pretty typical for right wing stuff.



Professors, technicians, students. A few folks from the biotech industry, though I didn't have a chance to ask them. Memorable was the young lady with the two kids. She was very grateful there was subsidized day care so she could continue working and use her training. Many women here drop out of the game altogether in part because affordable child care is virtually nonexistent.



Why, their so slovenly running a business that they wan to leach off everyone?
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Do you ever stop to listen to what you are saying? You think the Euro crisis is right wing propaganda, LOL. What about our countries lack of funds because of all the social programs. Or is that because rich people don't pay taxes.:no: You can't spend and tax yourself out of the crap we are in. Europe tried.

I graduated from dental school along side of women (and men) who had kids. They did not have a hand out. They done just fine.
 
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dennyleeb said:
Do you ever stop to listen to what you are saying? You think the Euro crisis is right wing propaganda, LOL.
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The Euro crisis is real enough, but its roots are far from Belgium and far more complex than you would realize from the diatribes on Fox News. Perhaps you understand it and perhaps you don't. Can't tell from what you write.

dennyleeb said:
What about our countries lack of funds because of all the social programs. Or is that because rich people don't pay taxes.:no: You can't spend and tax yourself out of the crap we are in. Europe tried.
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Again, crap from Fox News. Unless you've decided that Social Security and Medicare are "social programs". Personally, I think that equates them to welfare (which I despise and thankfully is vanishingly small part of the Federal budget) but can't really tell your meaning on the interwebs. But we and the Europeans do have debt in common. They use theirs for social programs, we use ours for weaponry and soldiery. I can tell you which I prefer. The reasons everyone is awash in red in are varied. The one good thing about us is those reasons are very, very temporary. Many of the European states simply can't say that.

dennyleeb said:
I graduated from dental school along side of women (and men) who had kids. They did not have a hand out. They done just fine.
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Socialized child care isn't a handout. We all pay in our taxes so families with children can stay productive. I think its really stupid to keep someone who can make $80,000 a year at home because they don't have access to decent child care which can be provided for a fraction of that. And yes, I have seen exactly that happen.

However, that hasn't even entered into the discussion here. What right wing idiots scream about here in terms of socialism is nothing of the sort. Every industrialized society is a mixture of capitalism and socialism. Some more, some less. The US is on the less side and likely to stay that way. Fine by me, but we shouldn't blind ourselves to the fact that there are other ways.
 
steingar said:
But we and the Europeans do have debt in common. They use theirs for social programs, we use ours for weaponry and soldiery. I can tell you which I prefer. The reasons everyone is awash in red in are varied. The one good thing about us is those reasons are very, very temporary. Many of the European states simply can't say that.
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While no one could disagree that all things are temporary, it debatable how much so our problems are. If you look at the euro-dollar trade the tide is already moving back their way. The reasons for this probably come down to the EU making adjustments to monetary policy that will or could result in something sustainable. While our spending to a large part may have been tied to two wars we more or less got a pass on that in the markets. What we are not getting a pass on is our reluctance or inability to take positive steps toward a sustainable economy. Not having a federal budget for example. Further we have used the fed aggressively to stabilize our economy at the cost of a loss in flexibility. By that I mean we have no choice but to keep the fed rate near zero for a very long time because of our debt load. The world is wondering what we will do when inflation begins to take hold and we don't have the flexibility to control it without facing default issues just like Europe. I am wondering too?
 
steingar said:
The Euro crisis is real enough, but its roots are far from Belgium and far more complex than you would realize from the diatribes on Fox News. Perhaps you understand it and perhaps you don't. Can't tell from what you write.



Again, crap from Fox News. Unless you've decided that Social Security and Medicare are "social programs". Personally, I think that equates them to welfare (which I despise and thankfully is vanishingly small part of the Federal budget) but can't really tell your meaning on the interwebs. But we and the Europeans do have debt in common. They use theirs for social programs, we use ours for weaponry and soldiery. I can tell you which I prefer. The reasons everyone is awash in red in are varied. The one good thing about us is those reasons are very, very temporary. Many of the European states simply can't say that.



Socialized child care isn't a handout. We all pay in our taxes so families with children can stay productive. I think its really stupid to keep someone who can make $80,000 a year at home because they don't have access to decent child care which can be provided for a fraction of that. And yes, I have seen exactly that happen.

However, that hasn't even entered into the discussion here. What right wing idiots scream about here in terms of socialism is nothing of the sort. Every industrialized society is a mixture of capitalism and socialism. Some more, some less. The US is on the less side and likely to stay that way. Fine by me, but we shouldn't blind ourselves to the fact that there are other ways.
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a) I don't watch fox news

b) yes social security and medicare are "social programs" (failed and unsustainable ones at that) that will bankrupt the country

c) yes it is a handout, you have to be joking about this one (I get it your just trying to get me going, lol)
 
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dennyleeb said:
a) I don't watch fox news
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Forgive me, you sound a lot like their pundits.

dennyleeb said:
b) yes social security and medicare are "social programs"
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Then we must agree to disagree. I regard them as obligations one generation has to the next.

dennyleeb said:
c) yes it is a handout
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We again must agree to disagree. If I pay for a service and receive it, I do not consider it a handout. Is it a handout when you send your children to public school?
 
steingar said:
Forgive me, you sound a lot like their pundits.



Then we must agree to disagree. I regard them as obligations one generation has to the next.



We again must agree to disagree. If I pay for a service and receive it, I do not consider it a handout. Is it a handout when you send your children to public school?
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I get it, your just trying to get me going. LOL

p.s. if your not maybe you should move to China I hear they have great day care

Since I know your kidding I will tell you a story. My father, brother, cousin and I are all doctors. We were sitting around one day and done some math. My (healthy) grandmother spent more in one year in medicare than all four of us paid in federal taxes. Now before you say we did not pay our share of taxes we all paid over 30% to federal alone. If four doctors can not pay for one healthy older lady how can it be sustainable? Some think the government should just make us pay more in taxes. When you factor in payroll tax, state, city, etc. It would come close to bankrupt us with a 5% increase. The margins are getting that thin by the time you pay overhead and taxes. Sounds like you have had a government job of some kind for a long time and have no clue what it takes to make it in the real world.
 
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So government should provide "child care"? What about food? A car? How about Cable TV? How about a TV? At least 60", righ? And HD? What about a Blueray player? And an X-box 360? What about Call of Duty? What about fancy creams and lotions?
 
dmccormack said:
So government should provide "child care"? What about food? A car? How about Cable TV? How about a TV? At least 60", righ? And HD? What about a Blueray player? And an X-box 360? What about Call of Duty? What about fancy creams and lotions?
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They save those niceties for the penitentiary inmates.

Sheesh! Greedy bastard! ;) ;) ;)
 
dmccormack said:
So government should provide "child care"? What about food? A car? How about Cable TV? How about a TV? At least 60", righ? And HD? What about a Blueray player? And an X-box 360? What about Call of Duty? What about fancy creams and lotions?
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I never said it should. I said it did in other lands, and I considered it a bad idea. You got a handout, since you sent your kids to a public school. Why should I pay for that? Damn freeloader.
 
steingar said:
I never said it should. I said it did in other lands, and I considered it a bad idea. You got a handout, since you sent your kids to a public school. Why should I pay for that? Damn freeloader.
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So to get back on topic you think we should all pay $100 for each flight in our planes to help pay for social programs. I guess I would not mind it as much either if I had won a plane. (not trying to insult you just the truth, I would love to win one, I am jealous over it). Hell I just had a great idea while the government is giving handouts if they would just give me a plane I would pay a hundo every time I land at a airport. The only problem is I have kids so if they could send a baby sitter to the house I could fly more. Hell I pay taxes, I am entitled a babysitter.
 
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Since when is sending kids to public school a handout? I pay real estate and school taxes approaching $10K per year, and I have NO kids in school. So I am giving government, and teacher unions a handout.

So public school is "free" in you area? Does the NEA fund it? They should, they can afford to.
 
Anthony said:
Since when is sending kids to public school a handout? I pay real estate and school taxes approaching $10K per year, and I have NO kids in school. So I am giving government, and teacher unions a handout.

So public school is "free" in you area? Does the NEA fund it? They should, they can afford to.
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If you pay taxes and get government subsidized child care, is that a handout? Dan said it was, and I disagree.
 
steingar said:
I never said it should. I said it did in other lands, and I considered it a bad idea. You got a handout, since you sent your kids to a public school. Why should I pay for that? Damn freeloader.
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I agree -- close all government schools (we home schooled)

See? we agree. Ain't that easy?
 
dmccormack said:
You sure are a stat cherry picker.

Literacy rates in America in 1750 (no public schools) was higher than it is today.

So try again.
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Utter BS Dan. Half the southern population was comprised of slaves of African descent, the lot of them illiterate. Right now ours hovers around 99%.
 
dmccormack said:
Have you ever been near anyone outside of a campus or an airport? Ever?

I'll accepted 99% if "literacy" is defined as "Able to read a Wal Mart sign"
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Did you even look at the chart I posted?
 
Anthony said:
When I add Federal, State, and Local income taxes, SS Tax, Various Sales Taxes, Utility "Fees", Property/Real Estate taxes, School Tax, Occupational Privilege Tax, Capital Gains Tax, and several taxes I don't remember right now, my effective tax rate approaches 50% as well. Add in healthcare payroll deductions, and my take home net pay is under 50% of my gross pay.

I know some others are less, and some are more, but still, I don't understand how people can be OK with this and also want to raise tax rates to fund more government waste. Do people really look at wht they pay in taxes or is it that it is mostly deducted from pay checks, and we never "see" it?
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Me too. Just about 48% of the money I earn is taken away from me by various government entities, with Federal Income Tax and SS/Medicare taking the biggest chunk. And that's over the whole year even though the SS maxes out before the end of the year.

I'm not opposed to paying for the things the government does for the public good. I'd feel a lot better if we all paid at the same rate. And I'd feel MUCH better if we went to a budget system that took the revenue raised in one year, and spent that revenue AFTER it was received.

The whole debt issue is another matter.
 
Everskyward said:
Did you even look at the chart I posted?
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Yes.

The table is misleading.

1870 will show an inordinate illiteracy rate due to significant immigration (non-native English speakers). In fact it was this very immigration by "those people" that drove the progressives to push for universal, compulsory, government-run education.

Nevertheless, pick up a McGuffey reader printed in 1870 and ask one of the "99% literates" to read and comprehend a section.

:rolleyes:
 
dmccormack said:
Yes.

The table is misleading.

1870 will show an inordinate illiteracy rate due to significant immigration (non-native English speakers). In fact it was this very immigration by "those people" that drove the progressives to push for universal, compulsory, government-run education.
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The table says, "Unable to read or write in any language." That would mean their native language too.
 
dennyleeb said:
Since I know your kidding I will tell you a story. My father, brother, cousin and I are all doctors. We were sitting around one day and done some math. My (healthy) grandmother spent more in one year in medicare than all four of us paid in federal taxes. Now before you say we did not pay our share of taxes we all paid over 30% to federal alone. If four doctors can not pay for one healthy older lady how can it be sustainable? Some think the government should just make us pay more in taxes. When you factor in payroll tax, state, city, etc. It would come close to bankrupt us with a 5% increase. The margins are getting that thin by the time you pay overhead and taxes. Sounds like you have had a government job of some kind for a long time and have no clue what it takes to make it in the real world.
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Sorry, not to get too personal here, but why did she spend so much on healthcare if she was "healthy"? And if my grandmother was sick, and needed healthcare and there were FOUR doctors in my family, including me, I'd think she would get a discount at the very least and possibly even free healthcare (from the physicians at least). Just sayin.....
 
Keith Lane said:
Sorry, not to get too personal here, but why did she spend so much on healthcare if she was "healthy"? And if my grandmother was sick, and needed healthcare and there were FOUR doctors in my family, including me, I'd think she would get a discount at the very least and possibly even free healthcare (from the physicians at least). Just sayin.....
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Why she spent so much is because she has little to no deductible or copay therefore no reason not to go to the doctor for everything.(I can not imagine what it would cost Medicare if she actually got sick) It is sad but a great exapmle of what is happening. As to the last question we are all dentist. Along with my retired grandfather and uncle who were not in the conversation. She gets free dental care as well.
 
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