TFR Violation 11/1/09 Newark, NJ 9/8117 did not show up on flight planning

N

Nysejob

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Does anyone have any info on NOTAM 9/8117 for Newark for 11/1/2009? There were TFR NOTAMs for Camden and Newark, NJ for that day. Only one (Camden) showed up on the flight planning printed map and on the in flight XM box. I know of several violation becuase it never showed up. Any info/thoughts?
 
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What sort of information are you looking for? What "flight planning printed map" are you referring to?

Here's the NOTAM from the FAA Graphic TFR site. http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_9_8117.html

My guess is that the FAA's position is that whether or not a TFR shows up on the XM or any other third party is an issue between the pilot and that party.
 
kkoran said:
What sort of information are you looking for? What "flight planning printed map" are you referring to?

Here's the NOTAM from the FAA Graphic TFR site. http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_9_8117.html

My guess is that the FAA's position is that whether or not a TFR shows up on the XM or any other third party is an issue between the pilot and that party.
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How did you find the past TFR?
 
Flight planning map was the AOPA RTFP. I'm trying to figure out why the TFR didn't show up on either the APOA RTFP and the XM.

AOPA post past TFR's but took this missing one off of their website.
 
kkoran said:
My guess is that the FAA's position is that whether or not a TFR shows up on the XM or any other third party is an issue between the pilot and that party.
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Your guess is correct. If you rely on a source other than the FAA or an FAA-certified provider like DUATS, you're on your own for the consequences, and the XM system is not a certified provider. So, if you tell them it didn't show up on the "flight plan printed map" (and have the map to show them as evidence), then the next question they'll ask is where you got the map.
 
kkoran said:
What sort of information are you looking for? What "flight planning printed map" are you referring to?

Here's the NOTAM from the FAA Graphic TFR site. http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_9_8117.html

My guess is that the FAA's position is that whether or not a TFR shows up on the XM or any other third party is an issue between the pilot and that party.
Click to expand...

Yes but I believe that the AOPA RTF gets its information from DUATS and DUAT and they are FAA sanctioned sites ( not the FAAs wording). I once found an error on and AOPA chart depicting the ADIZ around DC before it was the SFRA so it does happen. Those that violated should get aviation enforcement attorneys ASAP and subponea the AOPA records.
 
AdamZ said:
Yes but I believe that the AOPA RTF gets its information from DUATS and DUAT and they are FAA sanctioned sites ( not the FAAs wording). I once found an error on and AOPA chart depicting the ADIZ around DC before it was the SFRA so it does happen. Those that violated should get aviation enforcement attorneys ASAP and subponea the AOPA records.
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I think that you are correct for the data source; but I think Ron is correct in his assessment. Is AOPA collecting all of the data? Are they displaying all of the data? I'd expect that an FAA certified data provider would be able to demonstrate both of these; I don't think AOPA meets this standard.
 
Ron Levy said:
Your guess is correct. If you rely on a source other than the FAA or an FAA-certified provider like DUATS, you're on your own for the consequences, and the XM system is not a certified provider. So, if you tell them it didn't show up on the "flight plan printed map" (and have the map to show them as evidence), then the next question they'll ask is where you got the map.
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Simple...Voyager, which uses DUAT/DUATS to get its information. So if it does not show up there, it is on the FAA (or its representatives such as DUATS), not the pilot.
 
tdager said:
Simple...Voyager, which uses DUAT/DUATS to get its information. So if it does not show up there, it is on the FAA (or its representatives such as DUATS), not the pilot.
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See my comment on the AOPA product which also uses DUAT/DUATS for a data source. You are assuming that Voyager both retreives and displays all of the data. It is possible that DUATS had the data and the third party software either didn't "see" it or didn't display it.

Admittedly unlikely, but possible.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I think that you are correct for the data source; but I think Ron is correct in his assessment. Is AOPA collecting all of the data? Are they displaying all of the data? I'd expect that an FAA certified data provider would be able to demonstrate both of these; I don't think AOPA meets this standard.
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But when you log on to AOPAs flight planner and then go to download a flight briefing that flight briefing counts as an official briefsing as if you called FS. I think the same goes for any Briefing program that uses CSC or DTC.

I recall once getting a briefing from the older AOPA flilght planner (pre online version) and I then filed my flight plan. Of course Philly App didn't have the plan on file. When I got back I called AOPA to find out what was up and they had me call DUATs and speak to their AOPA desk. They confirmed that I had downloaded the breifing ( they acutally had a record and confirmed what charts and info I retrieved )Couldn't figure out why the flight plan never made it through though.

So my point is if you get a breifing through a certified source and they make an error I thought you would be covered. It would be a hassle but you would be covered. So while the XM GPS map may not count I would think that the Flight breifing map would because it came from AOPA RTFP.

I would hope the combo of the TFR not showing up on the breifing AND on XM would help save some bacon, but prolly not, sigh.
 
AdamZ said:
But when you log on to AOPAs flight planner and then go to download a flight briefing that flight briefing counts as an official briefsing as if you called FS. I think the same goes for any Briefing program that uses CSC or DTC.

I recall once getting a briefing from the older AOPA flilght planner (pre online version) and I then filed my flight plan. Of course Philly App didn't have the plan on file. When I got back I called AOPA to find out what was up and they had me call DUATs and speak to their AOPA desk. They confirmed that I had downloaded the breifing ( they acutally had a record and confirmed what charts and info I retrieved )Couldn't figure out why the flight plan never made it through though.

So my point is if you get a breifing through a certified source and they make an error I thought you would be covered. It would be a hassle but you would be covered. So while the XM GPS map may not count I would think that the Flight breifing map would because it came from AOPA RTFP.

I would hope the combo of the TFR not showing up on the breifing AND on XM would help save some bacon, but prolly not, sigh.
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So how do you know if it's a real briefing? I'll admit that AOPA RTFP (and, I suppose, Voyager) stores your name and N-number which is passed on to DUAT(S)...but I'd think all that did was show communications with them. How do they know that the information was transmitted to you?

With your DUAT(S) print out, one can show it wasn't there, or find out they overlooked it... I suppose one can print out the RTFP or Voyager data but if there is a NOTAM someone busted that wasn't depicted on the 3rd party products, I'm pretty sure that pilot's hosed.


I do hope I'm wrong about this...
 
tdager said:
Simple...Voyager, which uses DUAT/DUATS to get its information. So if it does not show up there, it is on the FAA (or its representatives such as DUATS), not the pilot.
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That could actually make life worse for the pilot. If DUAT/DUATS shows that the pilot's ID pulled down the TFR information (as RTFP and Voyager do in the background with your ID and password), yet the software failed to display same on the screen (it's there in the text briefing), then the information was clearly available to the pilot, and you've not provided proof that it was available to you, but you chose not to review the textual depictions of the TFR.
 
JeffDG said:
That could actually make life worse for the pilot. If DUAT/DUATS shows that the pilot's ID pulled down the TFR information (as RTFP and Voyager do in the background with your ID and password), yet the software failed to display same on the screen (it's there in the text briefing), then the information was clearly available to the pilot, and you've not provided proof that it was available to you, but you chose not to review the textual depictions of the TFR.
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That was the point I was trying to make...but you said it succinctly.
 
I use DUATS, check the Weather Channel - call ASOS along the route, etc. to do my preflight.
As I am leaving for the airport I call FSS and tell the briefer I have done a briefing via DUATS and only want to confirm for my flight route of xx to yy at zzzz hours there are no current flight restrictions... Takes 60-90 seconds on the phone, and leaves a recording that the government scum cannot weasel around...

Sorry to hear they dinged the OP... These are dangerous times my friend with many enemies out there - not counting the terrorists...

denny-o
 
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