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Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by flyingcheesehead, Sep 15, 2021.
Ballpark dollar a foot for 6 gauge wire.
Yeah, my entire panel is outside the house on my 1965-build. When I had an attached garage built, they put in a subpanel just to run the lights/outlets as well as a 50A welder circuit I had them add in case I ever needed for a 200V air compressor/welder/EV. I also had them move the electric dryer circuit inside the house over to the garage subpanel as well due to proximity and the fact that the previous owners ran that circuit all the way across the front of the house under the eaves in metal conduit. Moving it to the subpanel got rid of that eyesore. I'd love to have my panel inside the house, but I'm sure that would be a hefty bill from the sparky, so I'll leave it be. It hasn't posed any problems so far, but I suppose some mischievous teen could turn my power off if they were so inclined.
A 15A circuit will normally have 14g wire (white Romex) while a 20A requires 12g (yellow Romex). Could be higher if the run is very long.
I'd recommend a 240V/50A circuit using either the 6-50 or 14-50 commercial-grade receptacle. If you want to maintain compatibility to switch to a Wall Charger down the road, size the wire for a 60A circuit and include the neutral conductor (which isn't required on the 6-50).
That's the part I'm having a hard time understanding. What was preventing you from adding more?
Well, in Florida I often have two ac running pulling a total close to 100 amps. Add a 50 amp ev charger and the wife tosses in a load to dry and that’s capacity. Too close for my comfort. If she flips on the oven - poof
You can schedule the charging to happen at night, eg when you are asleep. (People who have different electric rates for different times of day often do this)
You can also limit, thru the Tesla, to draw less than your max Amps charger would normally provide, if for some reason you needed for load-balancing reasons.
if I recall correctly, one house I saw in Florida had some interconnection between the water heater and the AC unit, I think this was to prevent both from running at exactly the same time. (Makes sense since the A/C is usually cyclical load for a few minutes???)
I am in Florida, and have the AC going, along with the EV charger, clothes dryer, oven, and pool pump. No poof.
Well that convinces me.
I think I probably know my panel better than you know it. I’m pretty confident It’s not exactly the same as your panel. I have two ac units for example, not just one. I’m sure many other differences.
I’ve actually done the math with my actual panel. It’s too close for my comfort.
I’ll be just fine sharing the dryer circuit and no chance of a panel overload since they can’t both be connected at once.
I'm not the slightest bit concerned about convincing you. Simply adding a data point for readers considering their options.
Your loads shouldn't draw more than 80% continuous of the circuit's rating. A 50A circuit shouldn't draw more than 40A. The Tesla UMC draws 32A on a 50A circuit. HVAC will draw their peak at start-up then less while they're running.
Another price increase overnight on many of the models. My M3LR now costs $6,000 more than when I ordered in late July '21. At that time, it was a $1,000 price hike that pushed me to make the order.
Tesla has also lowered prices in the past. When they eventually get ahead of orders with their production, we might see reductions again. I don't see that happening in the near-term, though, even with the two new factories that have just gone into production (Berlin & Austin).
I saw that price increase. On the one hand, glad I got in when I did, saving several thousand dollars. On the other hand, this is how an inflationary spiral gets fed, people rushing in to buy before the next inevitable price increase.
I mentioned how our houses each have RV pedestals, some 100-200’ from our homes. This is plugged into a 14-50 50A receptacle.
I just looked at the GFCI receptacle I wired up some years ago for a pool pump, no longer used for that, that I’ve been charging with at the house. Turns out I used a 20A breaker and 12GA ROMEX and a 5-20 receptacle. Turns out that Tesla’s 5-20 adapter allows charging about 25% faster than the supplied 5-15. I ordered one yesterday for $35 plus tax - when feasible it’s more convenient to charge by the house and even that little speed boost will help pile on the miles overnight. Similarly, when charging overnight at friend’s, the extra speed will be nice if they have a 5-20 receptacle handy.
I do NOT know for Tesla. However, I know for older Nissan Leafs that a level 1 charger slightly degraded the battery each time, same with the DC fast Charging. The optimal charging solution for battery health was a level 2 charger.
I wonder if this is still true today, and if so is it the same for all cars? And also, does it make a difference in battery health between the lower end level 2 charger at 30amps to some of the newer ones pushing 80amps.
I have the 5-20 adapter. Haven't used it for any real charging yet but did test it and compared to the included 5-15 at 15A. It wasn't a long test but these were the initial charging rates that I had. I should have noted the kWh, too.
5-15: 4 MPH
5-20: 7 MPH
I know very little about the Leaf other than the earlier Leaf's did not have battery thermal management and a more rudimentary battery management system than Tesla and more recent EV models. I don't know what has been upgraded on newer Leaf's.
I've never heard of increased battery degradation with Level 1 charging. Level 1 is somewhat less efficient than Level 2 but that wouldn't affect the battery. DC Fast Charging is harder on the battery due to the amount of current being applied to the battery. Level 1 or Level 2 avoids that problem and should be fine.
We have very few EVs with very high mileage. The Model 3 was introduced in mid-2017 with limited production and didn't ramp up until 2018. Those cars aren't old enough for many of them to have reached 200,000 miles or more. The few that have, have fared very well. There have been some isolated battery failures, such as an engine or transmission can fail before it wears out, but not many and most have been covered by the 8yr/120,000mi battery warranty.
Kyle, from Out of Spec Motoring, has an older Model 3 Performance that he has abused for it's whole life. Track days, a high percentage of Supercharging, etc. His car recently passed 100,000 miles and he's done a number of videos on it at that milestone including a 100% to 0% battery degradation test. It preformed very well. Better than most would expect. Look up Out of Spec Motoring on YouTube for the videos.
All the resources I've seen say that supercharging is much harder on the battery than slower home charging.
The 5-20 adapter is handy, and gives you options on the road. A few decades ago the National Electrical Code was changed to require at least one dedicated 5-20 outlet in all enclosed residential garages. Depending on how old the house is and which version of the NEC has been adopted by that state, it is very likely that many people you visit will have a 5-20 outlet and may not even know it. I lived in my house for 15 years and had no idea the outlet near my garage door was different.
You might have problems with the GFCI triggering. Some MC users have reported this, though more often with 220v outlets. GFCI is not necessary if the outlet is dedicated for EV charging. Your MC has built in GFCI protection. So you can replace the outlet with a non-GFCI outlet if that becomes a problem.
From the department of useless worries....
Will the Tesla or any other electric vehicle survive an EMP.??
But if and when it happens, we can always come to this site and share solutions!
I'd be more worried about them causing an EMP.
of course, not much will
Will any car built after 1980?
When the nuts were claiming that anything with a computer chip would stop working after Y2K, I was hoping they would be right since I had an old, old, old car with no electronics (carbureted, mechanical points, etc.).
I would make a fortune as the only transportation in town. Alas, they were all wrong. Maybe my car will still run after an EMP?
Tesloop does: https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-electric-cars-surpass-300000-miles-in-shuttle-service/
Good to hear that. We bought a new 2021 Ford Escape Hybrid the end of October of last year. Just over 4000 miles on it now. Sounds like battery life should be a non-issue of us.
I find myself not agonizing too much over this sort of thing. The only thing I try to avoid is routinely charging to 100%, and only using Supercharging when necessary. The former restriction is soon to be eliminated with newer battery tech - some Tesla’s are now rolling off the assembly line with “LFP” batteries that don’t mind routine charging to 100%. In a few years they’ll probably all be like that, until something even better comes along. Regardless, a newly purchased EV will get its best EV range the day you buy it, and it’s inevitably all downhill from there, albeit hopefully pretty slowly.
One reason I don’t worry too much about the above is that I’m pretty sure we won’t own our 2022 M3LR for more than 4 years or so, so someone else will be saddled with any small degradation in range from my charging habits. Such short term ownership is rare for me - I still own and drive a Honda Element purchased in 2005, a BMW motorcycle purchased in 1999 and a Buell purchased in 2003. But these new EV’s are more like cell phones in that you can assume pretty big jumps in tech, battery and otherwise, in 4 years. Plus, repairs once out of the 4 year warranty could be pretty expensive. For now, at least, Tesla’s are holding their value so well that trading in every 4 years should not mean a huge depreciation loss. Not to mention that by 2026 the EV landscape will certainly provide far more options than today.
I agree that the tech will just keep getting better. When they offered a 5 year warranty extension I passed. First the Kia EV6 has a 5 year "bumper-to-bumper" and 10 year drive train (including battery) warranties. Second, I don't know that I'll own it past 5 years, and if so, I seriously doubt I'll own it 10 years; although I did own my Altima 13+ years. Third, how much is there to break? Yes, lots of little pricey things like automated door handles and such, plus even pricier things such as the displays and computers behind them.
The improving tech is why I bought new instead of used as I normally do.
Been driving the car a bunch. It’s definitely learning. Self drive has gotten quite a bit better since my first attempt. I still prefer not to use it unless I’m distracted though. It does some irritating things like suggest a lane change and then change it’s mind after I hit the signal, or worse, when behind a slower car and I tell it to change lanes it takes forever to move over and even longer to speed up. It really ****es off people in the lane already. And if you hit the gas to speed up it cancels self drive and locks you out for the rest of the trip.
Glad it's getting better Salty.
I've been learning more about driving the Kia EV6, mostly about getting better range. Wow driving on 55 mph highways is so much better for range than an interstate. I drove to visit my parents and take them to lunch in my new EV6. I drove there on the interstate, decent miles/kWh, but not great. On the way home there were multiple accidents on the interstate, so I went back on highways and side streets. Huge improvement in the miles/kWh. If I remember right it was 4.2 miles/kWh on the way home, which is over the EPA rating; yep, checked the car and that's what it shows. The data on the phone app says 29.2 miles using 5,890 Wh, which is 4.95 miles/kWh. Hmmm, not sure why the discrepancy.
Not that I would want to travel far at those speeds, but definitely a much better miles / kWh.
Last time I charged it was last Friday night, before heading off to visit my parents. I'll probably charge it again tonight as we're having lunch with our oldest daughter at her place. Should only be 34 miles round trip, which even after driving around some tonight should leave us plenty of range. Still new to the car, so I'll probably add more. Oh, there's a set of Electrify America 150 kW chargers over very near their home. Of course DC Fast is supposed to be a little bit harder on the battery. But, I could show my wife the DC Fast charging, boy will she be impressed. I get free power from Electrify America; 1,000 kWh over a 3 year period.
Thise are pretty efficient numbers. On my Volt, going from a 55 mph cruise to 70 mph on a typical work trip (31 miles) was around a 10 % decrease in range . Drag is a range killer above 55. Rain was even worse. I estimate on moderate rain with puddles, about a 15-20 % decrease in range vs dry pavement. Temperature, typical range on my Volt was around 35 miles with optimum temp (approx 70 degrees). Approaching freezing, range dropped to around 25 miles.
Haven’t done any efficiency checks on my Model S yet but with the warmer temps, I can already tell it’s doing a lot better than when I bought it in January. Right now I’m averaging 350 Wh / mile or about 3 miles per KWh. I expect that to get better as it warms up.
Just curious if there is a way to pull this data from the Tesla other than looking at the console? I've been a hyper miler long before hybrids even, so yeah, speed and rain make a huge difference.
Another dumb question on a totally different subject. I'm finding for my normal use the 110 charger is adequate. I have yet to need to pull out the 220 for my normal weekly commute. Is the 110 charger better for the batteries, or should I just use the 220 all the time? I've only been charging to 80% unless I know I have a long trip the next day, which will happen almost never.
No meaningful difference between 110 vs 220 in terms of longevity.
We’ve settled on 70% to 80% for at home local charging. In out M3LR that’s 250 miles or so of range, which is fine. Jump to 90% when starting out on trips.
I haven't read anything about battery life between 110 and 220, only that regular DC Fast can wear the battery somewhat more (it's always vague how much more) than charging on Level 1 / Level 2 at home. I got a Level 2 charger with a 50 amp breaker, which quite frankly is overkill, especially for my limited driving miles. I'd rather had too much charging than not enough, so I went a little bigger. I just figured it would be nice for those days when I drive further than usual, like to my sister's and then be able to have the car easily up to 80% the next morning, or even to 100% if I needed that.
I have my charging set to 80% for AC and 90% for DC. I'd most likely stop the DC charge around 80%, but figured I could let it go a little higher until I got to the car, more range and less chance of running into fees for "idle time".
Works the same with ICE vehicles. Range drops pretty drastically as you get above 55mph. Running 75/80mph down the turnpike definitely burns the fuel having to overcome drag vs 55mph. There's a reason that 55mph mark used to be emphasized on the speedometer of every car built back in the late 70s and 80's.
That was on a nice cool morning and afternoon; cool for Atlanta in April (~40-53*). So, no AC or heat. I'm sure the range will drop when I'm cranking the AC on 95* day and cruising on the interstate.
Right now the DTE is lower than what the car is telling me the efficiency is. What other EV6 owners are saying is the DTE calculation is conservative. The car is telling me 3.7 miles/kWh since the last recharge. With a 77.4 kWh battery that's 286 miles, which isn't the 310 miles advertised, but I'm not fitting the model for that range either; more interstate miles in my Atlanta driving. The DTE calculates to having 255 miles at 100%, the efficiency of 3.7 miles/kWh calculates to having 286 miles at 100%. If I can get 286 miles from a 100% charge that will help for any longer drives. We rarely drive very far. If we go far we fly.
Yep, just seems more noticeable when you start off with less range.
Oddly my 2016 Mustang convertible gets or slightly exceeds EPA highway mpg at 80 mph with the AC running. I'm sure it would get even better mileage if I didn't go as fast. Around town it does well to get the city EPA rating.
Level 1 (120V) or Level 2 (240V) is fine. Both are slow, as far as the battery is concerned. Significant DC fast charging, over tens of thousands of miles, can marginally increase the battery degradation.
Level 2 charging is more efficient. Less of the energy used will be lost to heat in the charging process leaving more of it to reach your battery.
Tesla reports in Wh/mi but, after converting, my car has averaged 3.8 mi/kWh since new.
What does your car's manual say about charging? With the battery management systems, it's usually recommended to keep the car plugged in whenever practical. The car knows how to best take care of itself.
I don't remember seeing that. I do remember something about charging it up to 100% once a month. I need to do a search on the PDFs as I don't see that last part right now.
Lots about safety: not touching the metal parts of the connector, not pulling cable for the connector, checking for dust/dirt on the charging ports, etc.
Ah, I found the part about charging to 100% (ugh no copy-and-pasted allowed):
If the high voltage battery charge amount is below 20%, you can keep the high voltage battery performance in optimal condition if you charge the high voltage battery to 100%. (Once a month or more is recommended.)
Yes, and that reason is that from 1974 to 1987, the national speed limit was 55 mph.