Terminology for Flight of Two

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I've always used the term "Flight of Two" when departing with another aircraft for the purpose of formation flying.
But today I over heard the ground controller advising two local Embry-Riddle students that the terminology is "Inflight with standard formation".:dunno:

I can't find this in the Pilot/ATC Glossary so I come here seeking wisdom. :yikes:
 
I just use "Flight of Two [or more]"
This is the first time I hear of "Inflight with Standard Formation," and I don't really like it.
Way too many words. First the "inflight" part, if I'm calling the tower because I want to land, will the guy in the tower really think that I may be calling from the ground? Next question is what's a standard formation and why does the tower need to know? As long as I'm not flying a 5 mile spread formation it really shouldn't made a difference for him.
 
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A standard formation is assumed unless otherwise advised.
 
Standard Formation just means within a mile of each other. ATC is just wondering if you guys are basically in the same piece of the sky, rather than strung out like on a radar trail departure or something. The standard terminology when checking in with any agency is still "flight of two" or "taxi two with Uniform" or "takeoff two in order" or whatever. It is courtesy to check in with center or approach as "flight of two standard" just so they don't have to ask, though 90% of the time it is assumed without saying. I doubt you will find anything in the FAR/AIM on the subject, as formation flight isn't that common outside of the military, but by convention, ATC can and sometimes will ask.
 
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I heard this the other night:

"St. Paul Tower, Guard copter 60, flight of two, with you inbound ILS 14."
 
35 AoA said:
It is courtesy to check in with center or approach as "flight of two standard" just so they don't have to ask
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Good to know


I assume when the frequency is very congested you would still just say "flight of two," right?
 
KRUE is near a C-130 training route. If we were class D, it would be through our airspace. They make calls on UNICOM when near airports. We continually hear "flight of X C-130s" or "a single C-130". They also continue to use the "ATIAPA".
 
MachFly said:
I assume when the frequency is very congested you would still just say "flight of two," right?
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No need to say "standard" when checking in -- it's supposed to be assumed unless you say otherwise. Also, if you're nonstandard, you're supposed to be operating on an ALTREV, and the controller will already know that.
 
dell30rb said:
While I understand this is a no-no and I refrain from using that phrase - I don't see the problem and everybody does it.
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The fact that "everybody does it" doesn't make it any less annoying to controllers or any less improper when someone else does it.
 
MSPAviator said:
What's the proper phraseology?
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I think he's referring to a flight of two helicopters doing an ILS as a section. While extremely rare for helos it's not against the rules while VMC. Fighters obviously do it VMC and IMC.

If you check in with ATC, on initial contact say your ID followed by "a flight of two." You'll hear a lot of guys saying "in flight" nonsense in every transmission after. I don't know how that slang worked its way in but it's unnecessary. The controller already knows you're a flight and controls the flight as a single aircraft. When the controller mentions leads callsign with an instruction that means everyone in the flight. When ATC wants a particular aircraft in the flight to excecute something he'll tell them either by getting their callsign or using "dash."

Non standard- greater than 1 mile laterally or 100 ft vertical. As Ron said that's usually an ALTRV. Generally this is for joining up with a tanker. This is also one of the few times MARSA is mentioned. You vector the flight 6 miles in trail or 1000 ft below the tanker then ask lead to report MARSA. Once he says MARSA the controllers job is over and it's on lead to provide separation. Sometimes lead will request nonstandard for bad weather so the can join up on top. During peak traffic this can be a controller's nightmare with a flight of four strung out over several miles. SUA or combat is pretty much the only other time I can think of for nonstandard formations.
 
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Ron Levy said:
The fact that "everybody does it" doesn't make it any less annoying to controllers or any less improper when someone else does it.
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You know, people who worry about that, (Pilots, Controllers, Anal CFI's) apparently have too much time on their hands.
 
Velocity173 said:
If you check in with ATC, on initial contact say your ID followed by "a flight of two." You'll hear a lot of guys saying "in flight" nonsense in every transmission after.
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I think what you're hearing is "...and flight," but I agree it's superfluous.

Non standard- greater than 1 mile laterally or 100 ft vertical. As Ron said that's usually an ALTRV. Generally this is for joining up with a tanker.
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Or when you're doing a large strike package -- "Alpha strike" in the Navy, or a "gorilla" in the USAF. I remember one time doing an Alpha strike from the Kitty Hawk off the California coast against the Salton Sea range in SoCal. We were on UHF, so we only heard one side of the conversation, but it was interesting listening to the ATC transmissions to a stream of airliners inbound to LAX:

"American 123, roger, ident, maintain flight level 240. Your traffic is a flight of 43 Navy aircraft, 12 o'clock, 20 miles, at flight level 170 block 230, lower when you're past them."

"Roger, 123, that's 43 Navy aircraft, 170 block 230."

"No, sir, I don't know what they're doing, but there's a bunch of them."

And yes, we were on an ALTRV. ;)

Biggest one I was ever in was 96 F-111's (48 each from Upper Heyford and Lakenheath) simulating a major Soviet raid on the UK as part of a big UK air defense exercise (including RAF, RN, and USAF air defense assets). We gaggled up over the North Sea halfway to Denmark, turned west, then split up and hit them in 1's and 2's everywhere from Dover to John O'Groats. Probably a good recreation of the Luftwaffe raids during the Battle of Britain. Big job for their equivalent of NORAD to sort it all out and allocate their interceptor assets -- just like in 1940, but with better equipment, although a lot faster speeds.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
You know, people who worry about that, (Pilots, Controllers, Anal CFI's) apparently have too much time on their hands.
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Sorry if you think I'm being too anal, but where do you draw the line, Greg? Just how much extraneous crap do you tolerate on the freq's before you put a stop to it? "With you" is OK, but "Any traffic in the area, please announce" is not? :dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
Sorry if you think I'm being too anal, but where do you draw the line, Greg? Just how much extraneous crap do you tolerate on the freq's before you put a stop to it? "With you" is OK, but "Any traffic in the area, please announce" is not? :dunno:
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"With you" takes a quarter of a second. I hear a LOT of crap from both sides of the microphone that isn't in the Pilot/Controller Glossary. IMO, "with you" isn't a battle worth fighting.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think what you're hearing is "...and flight," but I agree it's superfluous.

Or when you're doing a large strike package -- "Alpha strike" in the Navy, or a "gorilla" in the USAF. I remember one time doing an Alpha strike from the Kitty Hawk off the California coast against the Salton Sea range in SoCal. We were on UHF, so we only heard one side of the conversation, but it was interesting listening to the ATC transmissions to a stream of airliners inbound to LAX:

"American 123, roger, ident, maintain flight level 240. Your traffic is a flight of 43 Navy aircraft, 12 o'clock, 20 miles, at flight level 170 block 230, lower when you're past them."

"Roger, 123, that's 43 Navy aircraft, 170 block 230."

"No, sir, I don't know what they're doing, but there's a bunch of them."

And yes, we were on an ALTRV. ;)

Biggest one I was ever in was 96 F-111's (48 each from Upper Heyford and Lakenheath) simulating a major Soviet raid on the UK as part of a big UK air defense exercise (including RAF, RN, and USAF air defense assets). We gaggled up over the North Sea halfway to Denmark, turned west, then split up and hit them in 1's and 2's everywhere from Dover to John O'Groats. Probably a good recreation of the Luftwaffe raids during the Battle of Britain. Big job for their equivalent of NORAD to sort it all out and allocate their interceptor assets -- just like in 1940, but with better equipment, although a lot faster speeds.
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Yeah "and flight" is what some say. I used to tell my guys to get rid of extraneous verbiage. If you check in as a flight then no reason to add "and flight" on every transmission.

I couldn't imagine trying to sort out all those aircraft when they get back to base. I was reading Seymour Johnson launched like 98 F-15Es last year in celebration of their P-51 heritage. I would have loved to have witnessed that.
 
Ron Levy said:
Sorry if you think I'm being too anal, but where do you draw the line, Greg? Just how much extraneous crap do you tolerate on the freq's before you put a stop to it? "With you" is OK, but "Any traffic in the area, please announce" is not? :dunno:
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Hate to nit pick, but the proper improper phraseology is "Any traffic in the area, please ADVISE".


I too give "with you" a pass. It greases the skids of speech and makes the phrase flow better. I also say good morning sir / ma'am if the freq isn't busy despite that not being 'proper' either.
 
"Deck check climbing to two!"
"Checking in angels ten."
 
Greg Bockelman said:
"With you" takes a quarter of a second. I hear a LOT of crap from both sides of the microphone that isn't in the Pilot/Controller Glossary. IMO, "with you" isn't a battle worth fighting.
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There's very little said on the aircraft radio that's worth fighting about but that doesn't mean it still can't bother me when I hear it.:D
 
gismo said:
There's very little said on the aircraft radio that's worth fighting about but that doesn't mean it still can't bother me when I hear it.:D
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LOL. Of the things said on the radio that bother me, "with you" is not one of them.
 
Ron Levy said:
No need to say "standard" when checking in -- it's supposed to be assumed unless you say otherwise. Also, if you're nonstandard, you're supposed to be operating on an ALTREV, and the controller will already know that.
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Just out of curiosity, what do you need to do to get an ALTREV and is it possible to get one for a civilian flight?
 
MachFly said:
Just out of curiosity, what do you need to do to get an ALTREV and is it possible to get one for a civilian flight?
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An ALTRV falls under 7610.4J Special Military Operations. Not sure of any civilian application unless it's like some sort of record attempt or test flight.
 
Velocity173 said:
An ALTRV falls under 7610.4J Special Military Operations. Not sure of any civilian application unless it's like some sort of record attempt or test flight.
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I see.
Can you just request it from the cockpit over the radio or do you need to be filing paperwork in advance?
 
MachFly said:
I see.
Can you just request it from the cockpit over the radio or do you need to be filing paperwork in advance?
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Well that kinda gets into OPSEC. 7610.4J is Sensitive Unclassfied Information. It outlines other procedures for NORAD, SCATANA and Anti Drug Ops. I'm sure you can find a PDF copy online but those procedures are really on a need to know basis.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Sorry if you think I'm being too anal, but where do you draw the line, Greg? Just how much extraneous crap do you tolerate on the freq's before you put a stop to it? "With you" is OK, but "Any traffic in the area, please announce" is not? :dunno:
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I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would not say you are being anal. I hate excess comm, even a little bit of it, so I understand where you are coming from. Conversely, I will use "standard" comm when freq congestion (ie center) allows.......I've been to a lot of places around the country that will ask for it. Around here, not ever, unless they see we are like a 4+ ship or something going through the weather. But I would agree that saying it at all anywhere is extraneous, and the assumption should be that we are standard unless we specifically say otherwise.

So I am contradicting myself a little here. I'd also agree that "good day" or other such things are superfluous and have no practical value added....I will still say them to be polite when nobody is too busy though.
 
35 AoA said:
So I am contradicting myself a little here. I'd also agree that "good day" or other such things are superfluous and have no practical value added....I will still say them to be polite when nobody is too busy though.
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Yep, I'll say hello, good morning, or even hiya on initial contact if I'm not waiting to get a word in, if I am it's just "Skylane 5481E level 5,500"

When changing away from a controller I like to say "thanks for the help" even if all they did was sit quietly with me while I moved across their little bit of sky.
 
Skylane81E said:
Yep, I'll say hello, good morning, or even hiya on initial contact if I'm not waiting to get a word in, if I am it's just "Skylane 5481E level 5,500"

When changing away from a controller I like to say "thanks for the help" even if all they did was sit quietly with me while I moved across their little bit of sky.
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:yeahthat: +1
 
I was trained to use "flight of #" for all initial check ins. Any further calls on the same frequency would reduced to your callsign followed by "and flight"
 
The thing about formation phraseology is that unless you've gone through an approved program, military or civilian, then you simply shouldn't be doing it. While there's very little to say to ATC, there are many internal calls to make. Without proper training on procedures and comms, then you're just "winging it." that's an accident waiting to happen.
 
Velocity173 said:
The thing about formation phraseology is that unless you've gone through an approved program, military or civilian, then you simply shouldn't be doing it. While there's very little to say to ATC, there are many internal calls to make. Without proper training on procedures and comms, then you're just "winging it." that's an accident waiting to happen.
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:yeahthat:
 
Soon it will be:
Flumux tower, Cessna 12XX inbound with two souls on board.
Flumux tower
Hello
Anybody there?
Hello?

Sorry, couldn't resist editorializing.
 
Velocity173 said:
The thing about formation phraseology is that unless you've gone through an approved program, military or civilian, then you simply shouldn't be doing it. While there's very little to say to ATC, there are many internal calls to make. Without proper training on procedures and comms, then you're just "winging it." that's an accident waiting to happen.
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Some training is defiantly a good thing
 
Shepherd said:
Soon it will be:
Flumux tower, Cessna 12XX inbound with two souls on board.
Flumux tower
Hello
Anybody there?
Hello?

Sorry, couldn't resist editorializing.
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:rofl:
 
Ron Levy said:
The fact that "everybody does it" doesn't make it any less annoying to controllers or any less improper when someone else does it.
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I'm going to start saying it now in the hopes that you are on my frequency and it ****es you off!

:rofl: Joking of course.
 
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