Taxi'ing My First Taildragger (aka drunken taxi)

kimberlyanne546

Final Approach
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Kimberly
I just realized that I had another aviation "first" on Saturday - and wanted to ask the group what recent "aviation firsts" you have had.

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First Drunken Taxi

Sure, I have flown a tail dragger once before - but that was different. I took an "intro to tail draggers" lesson last year, at a flight school, in a Citabria, but the seat was high enough that I could pretty much taxi like I did in a Cessna. I could see over the dash and move forward in a straight line. No big deal.

But last Saturday was different. You see, I was on my way to a flour bombing / fly-in located in the "Lost Sierras" of California - it was going to take place inside a semi-private, residential air park that had a tiny 20' wide runway. Most of us local pilots had never heard of the place or landed there before.

On a whim after a pilot briefing in the terminal building, I was invited to ride in a different airplane (original plan was to ride with my friend). I'm trying to be more careful about who I fly with these days, so I asked around, and everybody vouched for him. Off we went.

Walking up to the plane, I saw it was a tail dragger with aerobatic seat belts. Such a pain to put on! Much to my surprise, I got to ride left (pilot's) seat in the plane. It was a modified RV-6 (different than a standard because the owner beefed up the wings, landing gear, and engine - so this was a one of a kind customized plane).

Now remember, I was not expecting to taxi, but the pilot asked me if I would like to. Of course I said yes, but - what a challenge! I think we had some mis-communications as he was trying to show me how to do it.

The pilot explained how he goes to one side of the taxiway, then switches rudder pedals when he gets near the grass that separates the taxiway from the runway, and then turns and goes the other way - in what I like to affectionately call "the drunken taxi manuever". I have only seen this done by much bigger tail draggers at my airport, such as the stearman. Our seats were so low and we were so short that it needed to be done. When watching from above, it looks like the plane is making shallow S turns on the taxiway.

It was definitely something new to me - even the slightest input of the rudder meant you had to come in with opposite rudder quite soon after (or you would run off the taxiway) - but any big movements made by mistake would sort of begin this weird dance of the feet.

I certainly have more respect and understanding for all you tail dragger drivers out there now.


Kimberly
 
Good to know from a newbie's standpoint Kim. I'm hoping to go up in the J3 Cub we're building here in the next month. I'm squirrely enough in a tricycle gear Piper... :dunno:
 
Good to know from a newbie's standpoint Kim. I'm hoping to go up in the J3 Cub we're building here in the next month. I'm squirrely enough in a tricycle gear Piper... :dunno:

Well I think he was fighting me on the rudders too. Just in case I screwed up. I guess that is "shadowing the controls" but whatever.
 
It is just "S" turning. Very common in aircraft where you cannot see over the nose. A little shocked to hear the need for S turning in an RV-6 as they have excellent visibility.

Hobo, the Cub can be "fun" to taxi. Does the Cub you are planning on flying have heel brakes? If so it makes it even more fun lol.
 
It is just "S" turning. Very common in aircraft where you cannot see over the nose. A little shocked to hear the need for S turning in an RV-6 as they have excellent visibility.

Hobo, the Cub can be "fun" to taxi. Does the Cub you are planning on flying have heel brakes? If so it makes it even more fun lol.

As mentioned, this is not a standard RV-6. The nose / ground clearance of the prop is much higher than a normal one. Therefore the angle is steeper and you cannot see over the nose. He showed me a normal RV-6 which was also at the fly-in for comparison.
 
It is just "S" turning. Very common in aircraft where you cannot see over the nose. A little shocked to hear the need for S turning in an RV-6 as they have excellent visibility.

Hobo, the Cub can be "fun" to taxi. Does the Cub you are planning on flying have heel brakes? If so it makes it even more fun lol.

My CFI tells me that the Cub has Heel brakes, and in order to use them you have to "contort" yourself. He also says that when this one came from the factory it had no brakes...

Edit: Sorry Kim...No intention of hijacking your thread...
 
Much steeper? Do you have a pic?

Not a good one. I don't know this pilot well and I have a policy against posting pictures of other people / planes without prior permission. I think he is an offline kind of guy.

Maybe we are just short? Not trying to start a debate here, I just did what the pilot told me to do and thought I would share.

It was a fun Saturday afternoon and I got to try new things.

Flying that plane was neat, he told the other pilots that I did better than most - he said it is so sensitive (the stick) that it is easy to get yourself in trouble if you handle it too rough.
 
My CFI tells me that the Cub has Heel brakes, and in order to use them you have to "contort" yourself. He also says that when this one came from the factory it had no brakes...

Edit: Sorry Kim...No intention of hijacking your thread...

No worries, I actually wanted to find out what other "firsts" people had recently.

At Gastons this next weekend, if I go in the King Air, it will be my first time in a multi engine plane, my first time at 18,000 feet - etc. I might bring my log book all the way to Arkansas just so he can sign it.
 
I just googled a standard RV6 and while it looks like the pilot might be able to see the taxiway further down, they can't see it right in front of them (like you can in a Cessna). Perhaps he just prefers the drunken taxi for safety reasons? Is it personal preference? I don't remember how tall he was.
 
My CFI tells me that the Cub has Heel brakes, and in order to use them you have to "contort" yourself. He also says that when this one came from the factory it had no brakes...
I'm no cub expert but I doubt they ever came without brakes. Ground handling without any brakes would be rather difficult and probably impossible if there were wind of significance.
 
I just googled a standard RV6 and while it looks like the pilot might be able to see the taxiway further down, they can't see it right in front of them (like you can in a Cessna). Perhaps he just prefers the drunken taxi for safety reasons? Is it personal preference? I don't remember how tall he was.

I didn't find the RV-6 to be any worse over the nose than a Citabria, maybe a tiny bit worse. I probably just slightly turned to the right so I could look down the centerline, then go right back, but didn't have the need to really S turn to each end of taxiway. It could be personal preference, and there is an art to S turning.
 
I'm no cub expert but I doubt they ever came without brakes. Ground handling without any brakes would be rather difficult and probably impossible if there were wind of significance.

I would agree with this. I don't think I would fly a Cub without brakes. I have flown them with stock brakes and thats bad enough.
 
I'm no cub expert but I doubt they ever came without brakes. Ground handling without any brakes would be rather difficult and probably impossible if there were wind of significance.

Well I'm certainly no expert on ANYTHING, let alone any aviation-related topics. Just sharing what my CFI texted me, and he's the lead on the restoration of this J3 Cub. Might be some fun research to do if I get bored...
 
My CFI tells me that the Cub has Heel brakes, and in order to use them you have to "contort" yourself. He also says that when this one came from the factory it had no brakes...

Edit: Sorry Kim...No intention of hijacking your thread...

I learned in a 7AC with heel brakes, ain't a big deal once you get used to it, also near impossible to acidently even slightly be on the brakes.


Having the weave down a taxi way in a RV seems a wee bit excessive to me too, I haven't had to do it even in AG cats, Stinsons, etc, by chance was the pilot short and sitting behind you?
 
I can go straight in the Flybaby just by watching the edge of the taxiway out the side of the airplane but I cannot see in front of me at all. That said I don't do lots of s-turns. I just angle to the side for a peak every now and then.
 
I learned in a 7AC with heel brakes, ain't a big deal once you get used to it, also near impossible to acidently even slightly be on the brakes.


Having the weave down a taxi way in a RV seems a wee bit excessive to me too, I haven't had to do it even in AG cats, Stinsons, etc, by chance was the pilot short and sitting behind you?

The pilot was short (and so am I, as mentioned in the original post). This RV did not have tandem seating - I sat left of him and it was very cozy in there. Not a lot of room but comfortable. Canopy on top with great upwards visibility.
 
I can go straight in the Flybaby just by watching the edge of the taxiway out the side of the airplane but I cannot see in front of me at all. That said I don't do lots of s-turns. I just angle to the side for a peak every now and then.

This may have been what he was telling me to do. Like I said, some mis-communications. Perhaps I was trying to "taxi like the big boys" and it was not needed. This would explain all his rudder inputs!
 
Well I'm certainly no expert on ANYTHING, let alone any aviation-related topics. Just sharing what my CFI texted me, and he's the lead on the restoration of this J3 Cub. Might be some fun research to do if I get bored...

Okay, I had to know so I googled a J3 Cub Service manual that was the original scanned from 1941. Sure enough, under "Wheel Brakes" it states them as "Optional". Pretty interesting reading...
 
Cool experience! Most RV builders will tell you that their plane as been modified but that one sounds like it had some major mods on it.

I've never heard S-turns described as a drunken taxi but the first time I saw a Cessna 195 equipped with crosswind landing gear, it looked drunken. I was about 12 and already an airplane nut. We were at KAGC to do some plane watching but ceilings and visibility was way down and you couldn't see the runways from the ramp. We heard a plane land and when he taxied out of the mist it looked like a drunken sailor.

I think this is a Stinson with the same type of gear - look at how the wheels are canted over.
It's taxiing straight at you
The C195 is a strange enough looking aircraft but with the tilting wheels and S-turns it really did look drunk. The pilot dropped or picked up a passenger and taxiid back out into the fog. Knowing what i know now, an IMC landing and departure in a C195 with drunken landing gear is not something many comtemporary pilots could or would consider.

My first and last tailwheel experience consists of 1500+ hours in a Maule. I got my transition training from Ray Maule. He taught me to fly the plane but never said a single word about how to taxi. I just got in and he said let's go and that was it. I had a big "?" in my head but it slowly faded as we trained on TOs and landings. I guess that's the school of "just do it".
 
Cool experience! Most RV builders will tell you that their plane as been modified but that one sounds like it had some major mods on it.

This is why I rolled my eyes the second I read it lol. Every RV owner claims theirs is highly modified. It is an experimental with tons of configuration options, I wouldn't say any are highly modified that I have seen.
 
I'm no cub expert but I doubt they ever came without brakes. Ground handling without any brakes would be rather difficult and probably impossible if there were wind of significance.
According to "Mr Piper and his Cubs" by Devon Francis, 1973, the Cub acquired both brakes and a tailwheel as the J3 evolved from the J2. This was as much a function of competition with the "K" now known as the Champ which had both accessories. The first iteration on the Cub involved a brake on the tailwheel which proved ineffective so hydraulic brakes were eventually used. (I'm not a Cub expert either, just repeating what's in the book)

It was the depression after all and aviation was more of what we would call an extreme sport. That's back when air mail pilots were discovering the mysteries of flight in IMC... with their lives.
 
I would agree with this. I don't think I would fly a Cub without brakes. I have flown them with stock brakes and thats bad enough.
Which is why it wouldn't have been such a big deal to not have them!
If you operate mostly off of grass, and you have a big enough field, the only reason to use them is... well, I don't know.

Ryan
 
Id be interested to see how modified this Rv was...to the point of not being able to see over the nose much. Ive flown a few rv6's and 7's and there was no need to S-turn at all.

Also, my grandpa flew a J3 in a flying club many, many year ago with no brakes. I do believe there were a few of them.

Otherwise, sounds like a good experience. Most of the time (as you described) you are pressing the rudder pedal opposite of where the airplane is actually headed/direction it is turning.
 
Okay, I had to know so I googled a J3 Cub Service manual that was the original scanned from 1941. Sure enough, under "Wheel Brakes" it states them as "Optional". Pretty interesting reading...
Prior to WWII, a lot of airfields were just that- open spaces with a windsock in the middle. Crosswinds weren't much of a problem, even with one of those newfangled castering wheels under the tail instead of a skid. Even Newark Airport, which was big deal, ultramodern transportation project in the late 20s, had such a circular landing area, although it also sported the first paved runway in the USA ( a whopping 1600 feet of packed cinders!).

My limited Cub-taxiing experience leads me to believe that the folks at Piper only installed brakes under protest, so they cleverly hid the pedals under the front seat to discourage you from using them. It's a weird and wacky challenge, especially from the back seat, but it's kinda fun, and not that hard to get used to... especially if you adhere to the old taildraggers' mantra "brakes are for parking." :D The old cable-actuated drum brakes were also prone to be "grabby" and not very durable. I can attest to that- busted a brake cable on a Champ once while pivot-turning, and it wasn't exactly a neglected airplane. It's just not a very robust system.
I have heard that brakes are sometimes used with such planes for directional control on takeoff and landing, but so far, I've managed to avoid that with Champs, Cubs, and C-140s.
Glad you enjoyed your "drunken style" taxiing, Kimberly, but did you get to fly it? I hope so...RVs are very special, I think.
 
Gotta wonder if it was a "Super 6" with an IO-540 in it. THAT would be something to fly.
 
Not several hundred. Between 50-60 and maybe 150 tops, depending on what you're comparing it to. Still, Supers are pretty rare. There are a lot of modified -6s out there, though, from what I gather.
 
Prior to WWII, a lot of airfields were just that- open spaces with a windsock in the middle. Crosswinds weren't much of a problem, even with one of those newfangled castering wheels under the tail instead of a skid. Even Newark Airport, which was big deal, ultramodern transportation project in the late 20s, had such a circular landing area, although it also sported the first paved runway in the USA ( a whopping 1600 feet of packed cinders!).
An interesting pic for anyone familiar with the North Perry Airport in Hollywood Florida.
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28496&d=1358439607
Now the airport looks like this.
http://img.airnav.com/ap/00832.jpg
Amazing what brakes and nosewheels can do for you... but it took awhile to figure it all out.
 
It is just "S" turning. Very common in aircraft where you cannot see over the nose. A little shocked to hear the need for S turning in an RV-6 as they have excellent visibility.

Hobo, the Cub can be "fun" to taxi. Does the Cub you are planning on flying have heel brakes? If so it makes it even more fun lol.

The only real use the heel brakes have is to keep you out of the mud. All the TW planes I've flown have heel brakes though so I guess I'm used to it now.
 
The only real use the heel brakes have is to keep you out of the mud. All the TW planes I've flown have heel brakes though so I guess I'm used to it now.

Well on pavement, and in high winds they are pretty needed. The J-3 I instructed in got a Cleveland brake upgrade and it made the plane much easier to operate in higher winds. I must admit I have little grass experience but you can't get a J-3 to the hangar without brakes on paved surfaces very often.
 
My last first :D

First time to Houston Hobby under instrument instruction. (My apologies to the 737 behind us on the ILS) and again this is my "best forward speed".

Also that same day was my first in IMC (yay for taking off the hood)

fb

I also think the tailwheel taxi effort is successful if you don't wipe out any taxi lights.
 
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I was under the impression that in larger conventional gear airplanes, it is impossible to see directly ahead of you when taxiing regardless, meaning you need to develop the skills to know were you are pointed based on cues from each side. One example would be that one video where the guy was demonstrating his privately owned P-51 in particular.

Tailwheel is intriguing and definitely on the to-do list, but there doesn't appear to be any locally available instruction.
Crosswinds weren't much of a problem, even with one of those newfangled castering wheels under the tail instead of a skid. Even Newark Airport, which was big deal, ultramodern transportation project in the late 20s, had such a circular landing area, although it also sported the first paved runway in the USA ( a whopping 1600 feet of packed cinders!).
Gann casually mentions the "cinders" at Newark in Fate is The Hunter.
 
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I was under the impression that in larger conventional gear airplanes, it is impossible to see directly ahead of you when taxiing regardless, meaning you need to develop the skills to know were you are pointed based on cues from each side.
I'ts not a matter of size - just the angle of the nose, seating / engine position, etc. A Pitts is small, but you can't see ahead on the ground.

It all depends...

 
I was under the impression that in larger conventional gear airplanes, it is impossible to see directly ahead of you when taxiing

I learned in a J3 at the age of 15 with a big fat guy in the front seat exactly how a horse, or any other animal that has eyes on opposite sides of it's head, sees the world.
 
I'ts not a matter of size - just the angle of the nose, seating / engine position, etc. A Pitts is small, but you can't see ahead on the ground.

It all depends...
In some tandem seat taildraggers you can see fairly well from the front seat but not so much from the rear. Your brother's airplane (like many biplanes) you can actually see better from the rear (primary) seat because the engine and wing structure covers a wider portion of your forward field of view.
 
The Tcraft is a trade off. I can use the seat cushions and see straight over the nose and look at a wing root when I turn my head, or see out the side window and have to make S turns. I like using the cushion and lifting the left wing before I turn left isn't a big deal to me.

But in the backseat of a cub it depends on airport operations. If there isn't a lot of aircraft I'll just use other references to stay on the taxiway, if its busy I S turn to make sure no one is stopped in front of me


-VanDy
 
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