Tale of RG failure

Toby

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Toby Speed
I was talking to my former instructor, Lou, today, and he told me he had an accident in his twin on Monday. The front gear didn't come down, and he had to crash land at ISP.

Although he tried repeatedly, he couldn't get the nosewheel to extend. He declared an emergency, but continued going around for a while, trying to work with it. No luck. They cleared one of the runways for him, and he came in and crash landed. He had to come in a little hot; it was very windy, there was wind shear and he got a gust from behind when he was quite near the ground, so he nosed down to avoid stalling, and came in on his belly. Of course, the prop hit, and there was quite a lot of damage to the engine, prop, and fuselage.

All of this with two passengers in the plane, to whom he was giving directions, i.e., open the door before we touch down, shut off the fuel, etc. As soon as the plane came to a stop on the runway, they got out and ran. Everyone was okay.

He has had two RG accidents in the past in different airplanes, which is pretty amazing. What are the odds?? I think he is the most awesome pilot, incredibly calm and incredibly upbeat. He actually laughed and told me proudly that he came in on the centerline.

I wonder if I could have handled that the way he did.
 
Toby said:
I was talking to my former instructor, Lou, today, and he told me he had an accident in his twin on Monday. The front gear didn't come down, and he had to crash land at ISP.

Although he tried repeatedly, he couldn't get the nosewheel to extend. He declared an emergency, but continued going around for a while, trying to work with it. No luck. They cleared one of the runways for him, and he came in and crash landed. He had to come in a little hot; it was very windy, there was wind shear and he got a gust from behind when he was quite near the ground, so he nosed down to avoid stalling, and came in on his belly. Of course, the prop hit, and there was quite a lot of damage to the engine, prop, and fuselage.

All of this with two passengers in the plane, to whom he was giving directions, i.e., open the door before we touch down, shut off the fuel, etc. As soon as the plane came to a stop on the runway, they got out and ran. Everyone was okay.

He has had two RG accidents in the past in different airplanes, which is pretty amazing. What are the odds?? I think he is the most awesome pilot, incredibly calm and incredibly upbeat. He actually laughed and told me proudly that he came in on the centerline.

I wonder if I could have handled that the way he did.


You could handle it alright. All you have to do is fly the plane, and by all reports you are a fine pilot. Might help with your emergency management to change the way you are thinking just a little bit though. For example, while the pilot properly declared an emergency, it wasn't really. I mean, really, if he just flew the plane, what are the odds of someone getting hurt? The airplane doesn't count. And it's not a "crash landing." That term carries a lot of negative connotations. If/when I ever find myself in that boat, I'll be darned of I'll think of the landing as a crash. Just an expensive one. Not my problem. A crash is when they have to use search teams to find all the pieces of the airplane.
 
Toby said:
.....
What are the odds?? I think he is the most awesome pilot, incredibly calm and incredibly upbeat. He actually laughed and told me proudly that he came in on the centerline.
.....
I don't know what the odds are, Toby. I just hope it never happens to me. I have practiced emergency gear extensions in the Comanche and even had to do it so I feel comfortable that I could handle things in the event of electrical failure. (The gear is electric.) But failure of one of the wheels would be a challenge for me.

I think it's great he handled things so well. I'd be happy just to walk away from it.
 
I know that a gear-up landing is not a "crash," or an "emergency." But when I did not get my three greens (no greens) at AUS, despite my non-declaration, they asked me souls and fuel, rolled trucks and closed the runway behind me. I taxied to the FBO with lots of escorts (they were all very nice about it).

Oh yeah, the lights came right on as I turned off of the runway and on to the taxiway. Meanwhile I spent about $60.00 worth of time circling, cycling and verifying gear down with the crank.

It really is not a crash.
 
Maybe this is a dumb rookie question, but... why is this not to be declared an emergency? I think if this happened to me, I'd want the fire trucks waiting and the whole shebang.

--Kath
(fixed-gear only, for now)
 
Not an Emergency?

I'm only a novice myself. But my thinking would go like this...A tank full of fuel 2 inches away from a thin aluminum skin rubbing against concrete at 50 knots throwing off spark might not be the safest way to land.

A pilot landing in that condition needs a fire-truck and an ambulance standing by. I don't think your going to get that unless you declare an emergency. I don't care if it was only the nose gear. People can get hurt landing a plane like that and you need medical personal ready to go

Call me a wimp but I think your instructor acted perfectly.
 
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I'm recently signed off complex, and have only been up a handfull of times in the 172RG by myself. I still sweat it every time I pull the gear lever down. If I didn't get the green light in the cutlass and something didn't look right in the mirrors, I would darned well declare. I want a big old red light party on the ground waiting for me. I don't like report writing very much, but under the circumstances I would take that chance.

IMHO

Jim G
 
If your're having a inflight problem (or a ground problem for that matter) and you've done everything you can do to solve the problem and you can't, then declare an IFE. Roll the equipment and get some help. A gear problem can be just a symptom of a bigger issue. Along that line, think about where you want to go when a problem comes up. Most of the time that's a towered field with honest to goodness CFR (crash, fire and rescue) capability and a precision approach if it's IMC. Don't mess around with inflight problems. Communicate, confess and comply.
 
What Spike may be saying is if one has a reasonable amount of fuel, an immediate emergency might not be declared as that could tie up all the airspace/runways. I've had a gear problem and worked through it without the need to declare an emergency. Airport was not busy and the controllers and tower were highly responsive. I circled about 5 miles from the airport while going throught the POH procedures to get the gear down, then deal with it not indicating down--turned out it was. Did a low pass in front of the tower to have them visually let me know it looked down.

All that said, I would want emergency equipment there when the actual gear up landing took place. Some one could be hurt, trapped in the plane and there could be a fire, no matter how well it's handled. If the controllers weren't responsive, I was low on fuel or it was busy, at the time I needed to get in, I would declare. Bear in mind, the runway will probably be closed for awhile after the gear up. It's best to arrange for someone knowledgeable to get the plane off the runway without doing more damage if that's possible. Therefore, if one has time, it would be beneficial to plan ahead and take time.

If you're uncomfortable with this, go ahead and declare an emergency. Spike was probably saying because he had fuel and there were no other problems, he was able to get comfortable without declaring.

One of our club planes landed gear-up at Addison. They did a great job of putting it on the runway. Took their time and let others land that needed to get in (single runway). They walked away unharmed. Since they didn't arrange for anyone to get the plane off the runway; the tower did (management). Those people caused substantial damage by putting a gp strap on the prop and dragging the plane onto a flat bed truck by the prop.

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS
 
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Carol said:
I don't know what the odds are, Toby. I just hope it never happens to me. I have practiced emergency gear extensions in the Comanche and even had to do it so I feel comfortable that I could handle things in the event of electrical failure. (The gear is electric.) But failure of one of the wheels would be a challenge for me.

I think it's great he handled things so well. I'd be happy just to walk away from it.

Thanks, Carol. I meant the question rhetorically, as he has had three gear incidents over 30 years. I think he's had his full share of mishaps.

Yes, walking away is the goal and the hope.
 
corjulo said:
Not an Emergency?

I'm only a novice myself. But my thinking would go like this...A tank full of fuel 2 inches away from a thin aluminum skin rubbing against concrete at 50 knots throwing off spark might not be the safest way to land.

A pilot landing in that condition needs a fire-truck and an ambulance standing by. I don't think your going to get that unless you declare an emergency. I don't care if it was only the nose gear. People can get hurt landing a plane like that and you need medical personal ready to go

Call me a wimp but I think your instructor acted perfectly.

Thanks, Dan. And I know that's why he declared it an emergency. It's also a very busy airport (class C) and he needed the tower to know that he was not going to be taxiing off the runway -- he was getting out. With the wind shear he was getting a tailwind, too, which caused him to keep the nose somewhat down. If I were landing in that condition with a lot of wind and gusts and had two fairly heavy passengers, I would call it an emergency.

There was something else he was going to try -- but couldn't because the props were windmilling -- I forget what it was. I'll have to ask him again.

The other day I read an ad for Leatherman tools where someone described a similar situation. While the copilot flew the plane, he got underneath the panel, cut it open with his Leatherman, and lowered the gear by hand.
 
Thanks, Dave. I understand that there are emergencies, and there are emergencies. This guy is very calm and experienced. They weren't in any danger while they were in the air. He flew around for quite a while trying to get the gear down first.
 
kath said:
Maybe this is a dumb rookie question, but... why is this not to be declared an emergency? I think if this happened to me, I'd want the fire trucks waiting and the whole shebang.

--Kath
(fixed-gear only, for now)

Kath, I'm with you on this one. If the gear doesn't indicate fully down and locked you want the rescue folks standing by when you land. Ask any emergency response crew and I'll bet they all say they'd rather be called out and have nothing bad happen than to show up too late to help if something does go wrong. AFaIK most gear malfunction landings in light planes come off without serious injury as long as the plane makes it to the runway, but this is obviously not as safe as a normal landing. I once saw an airplane (fixed gear) fold the nosewheel when landing, and the front tire caught on fire after being dragged on the asphalt.

Something else I'd add is that if your retractable doesn't indicate all wheels down and locked, I wouldn't consider a report from the ground that "it looks down" as confirmation that there's no problem. Most retraction systems can fold if they are "nearly extended" yet there's generally no way to tell from further away than two feet if it's all the way extended.
 
The only gear problem I've had was gear that wouldn't retract. But I witnessed a friend who was teaching a commercial student land with a nose wheel which wouldn't extend. He opted to land a nearby grass field where some of us waited with fire extinguishers. There were no injuries except that he skinned his knee getting out of the Arrow.

I think he made a bad decision (even though it worked). I would have flown over to Northeast Philly (PNE) where they have on-field fire crews and declared an emergency. Just call me chicken...
 
Something else I'd add is that if your retractable doesn't indicate all wheels down and locked, I wouldn't consider a report from the ground that "it looks down" as confirmation that there's no problem. Most retraction systems can fold if they are "nearly extended" yet there's generally no way to tell from further away than two feet if it's all the way extended.[/QUOTE]
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Lance is right on; however, a low pass is something else to let you know what's going on if you can't see the gear mechanism. In my case, it turned out to be a faulty micro switch. Once the contacts were cleaned, it properly indicated. I did approach the field fully prepared to do a gear up landing, and as I touched down, every thing was normal.

Doing the low pass by the tower did not prove the gear was down, but in a rental plane where I was unfamiliar with how the plane had been maintained, it was another indicator that it could be a problem other then with the gear being down. Had tower said the gear was not fully down and locked, that sure would have confrimed a gear deployment problem.

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS
 
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