Tail Dragger vs. Tricycle

Mtns2Skies

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I was wondering what the advantages are between Conventional gear and Tricycle gear. I already know Tricycles are better with taxiing and Conventional's have less drag and higher prop clearance. Any other differences? Oh and which do you think is cooler? :wink2: Thanks!
 
I was wondering what the advantages are between Conventional gear and Tricycle gear. I already know Tricycles are better with taxiing and Conventional's have less drag and higher prop clearance. Any other differences? Oh and which do you think is cooler? :wink2: Thanks!

Conventional gear will almost always be lighter. In many taildraggers it's impossible to see over the nose when landing or taxiing (there are some exceptions). Taildraggers are definitely "cooler" if for no other reason than they are less, well, "conventional" (i.e. common) and convey an aura of competency on the pilot stepping out of one (unless he's just ground looped it). Some taildraggers are much more capable of operations from rough fields, you won't find many "bush pilots" flying tricycle gear airplanes. The reasonf for that are many but the two biggest ones are the significantly greater prop clearance of a taildragger and the fragililty of most nosegears. It's pretty much impossible to bend the firewall of a taildragger by bouncing a landing unless you flip it completely upside down.
 
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Personally I think taildraggers are much better when taxiing...much more maneuverable. Some have limited visibility over the nose, sure, like warbirds. But mine doesn't.
 
Personally I think taildraggers are much better when taxiing...much more maneuverable.
Okkay, how do you get them to go where you point them? In my admittedly quite limited experience, pushing on the rudder pedal now means it'll start turning that way in several seconds...
 
Okkay, how do you get them to go where you point them? In my admittedly quite limited experience, pushing on the rudder pedal now means it'll start turning that way in several seconds...

Personally I find taxiing a tail wheel airplane easier. Like the nose wheel counterparts they very from model to model, but once you have the feel they are quite maneuverable.
 
Okkay, how do you get them to go where you point them? In my admittedly quite limited experience, pushing on the rudder pedal now means it'll start turning that way in several seconds...

I can spin circles in place. How many nosewheel aircraft can do that? Pretty handy when you are trying to taxi into a tight tiedown spot or hanger row.

Differential braking.
 
I can spin circles in place. How many nosewheel aircraft can do that? Pretty handy when you are trying to taxi into a tight tiedown spot or hanger row.

Differential braking.
Some nosedraggers can do that; the Cirrus and Grummans spring immediately to mind.

OTOH, taildraggers without separate brakes for each wheel, or heel brakes for each wheel right next to each other, don't provide this extra bit of control.
 
Okkay, how do you get them to go where you point them? In my admittedly quite limited experience, pushing on the rudder pedal now means it'll start turning that way in several seconds...

What do you want, instant gratification for your feet?:D

It's actually very easy to steer most taildraggers on the ground as long as you're not going fast and the wind isn't strong relative to the stall speed. You do have to anticipate the tail's inertia on sharp turns (like turning off the runway) or you might overshoot the turn but even that's not an issue in a lightweight airplane. Speed is your enemy though, the oft repeated advice to keep taxi speeds below a fast walk came from pilots of conventional geared airplanes. The faster you go the more likely you'll end up going somewhere you'd rather not, or at least didn't intend to.

Of course many taildraggers have such limited forward visibility on the ground that you must swerve back and forth while peering out the side (outside of the swerve) in order to clear the area ahead and that takes a little getting used to.

The real "taxiing" difficulty comes during the takeoff or landing roll when you're too slow to fly and too fast for easy handling on the ground. That's when the tail may seem to insist on leading the charge.
 
Okkay, how do you get them to go where you point them? In my admittedly quite limited experience, pushing on the rudder pedal now means it'll start turning that way in several seconds...
Tap a brake and see what happens....
 
I can spin circles in place. How many nosewheel aircraft can do that? Pretty handy when you are trying to taxi into a tight tiedown spot or hanger row.

Differential braking.


My Tiger is a trike and can spin circles in place all day. All of the Grumman light aircraft with the castoring nosewheel can do that. I imagine the RV's and Diamonds can do it to.
 
My Tiger is a trike and can spin circles in place all day. All of the Grumman light aircraft with the castoring nosewheel can do that. I imagine the RV's and Diamonds can do it to.

I've never had any trouble getting a trike with a full castering nosewheel to make turns tight enough to strain the inside tire but many of them make it a PITA to straighten out the nosewheel when you want to stop that turn. How's the Grumman in that regard? In any tailwheel airplane I've flown it's much easier.
 
I've never had any trouble getting a trike with a full castering nosewheel to make turns tight enough to strain the inside tire but many of them make it a PITA to straighten out the nosewheel when you want to stop that turn. How's the Grumman in that regard? In any tailwheel airplane I've flown it's much easier.



Its not bad. You quickly learn to apply opposite differential brake as your coming out of the turn. Its just becomes an instinct with out real thought. You just do it. Ron Levy checked me out in mine and the first couple of minutes I was all over the place and then bingo. Like learning to hover in a copter, only this takes a few minutes not several hours.
 
Its not bad. You quickly learn to apply opposite differential brake as your coming out of the turn. Its just becomes an instinct with out real thought. You just do it. Ron Levy checked me out in mine and the first couple of minutes I was all over the place and then bingo. Like learning to hover in a copter, only this takes a few minutes not several hours.

Sounds like similar castering nosewheels then. I did fly a Traveler a long time ago and don't really remember having any trouble. I agree that it's not normally a big issue, but on occasion when there's little room to move ahead after turning or when you make a mistake and need to turn the other way it's an extra bother. But my point (relating to the thread title) was that the taildraggers generally have less of an issue with this.
 
OTOH, taildraggers without separate brakes for each wheel, or heel brakes for each wheel right next to each other, don't provide this extra bit of control.

Name one that doesn't have separate brakes on each wheel.
 
Okkay, how do you get them to go where you point them? In my admittedly quite limited experience, pushing on the rudder pedal now means it'll start turning that way in several seconds...

It's called anticipation...:wink2:
 
I thought the Cub was this way. Since I've never flown one, I could be wrong.

A taildragger without differential brakes would be trouble indeed. Never seen one.

Dan
 
A taildragger without differential brakes would be trouble indeed. Never seen one.
Fournier series, such as the RF-5B.

rf5b_lake_elsinore.jpg


If you include homebuilts, the Europa has a similar setup.

Ron Wanttaja
 
I can only answer the question thusly: If I were to build or buy an airplane, say an RV, that could be had as either a trike or a taildragger, there is absolutely no question in my mind that the third wheel would go in the back.
 
I can only answer the question thusly: If I were to build or buy an airplane, say an RV, that could be had as either a trike or a taildragger, there is absolutely no question in my mind that the third wheel would go in the back.



You know, I've thought that way too. The only reason to build a trike is for resale as I think many are intimidated by a tailwheel airplane. I'd love and RV-7!
 
A taildragger without differential brakes would be trouble indeed. Never seen one.

Dan


Virtually all sailplanes are taildraggers without differential braking (or steerable tailwheels for that matter). Of course one doesn't normally taxi a sailplane very far either. There have also been a number of "conventional gear" airplanes with no brakes at all and just a skid on the tail. But in their day landings and takeoff were almost always made directly into the wind.
 
Now how about the Piper pacer/Tri-pacer. Wasn't the first pacer a tail dragger, then came along the Tri-pacer. Why would they do that?
 
Now how about the Piper pacer/Tri-pacer. Wasn't the first pacer a tail dragger, then came along the Tri-pacer. Why would they do that?

Same reason the C-170 became the C-172 and the C-180 became the C-182...tricycle gear was the next big thing at the time for selling airplanes. Check out Cessna's old advertising campaigns for "Land-O-Matic" gear.

And now there are STCs for converting Tri-Pacers back to Pacers, etc. Everything old is new again...


Trapper John
 
Now how about the Piper pacer/Tri-pacer. Wasn't the first pacer a tail dragger, then came along the Tri-pacer. Why would they do that?


To make it easier to land by the "average" (read non-proficient) pilot so they could sell more planes. Same for the 172.
 
And now there are STCs for converting Tri-Pacers back to Pacers, etc. Everything old is new again...
And STCs for putting the tailwheel back where it belongs on Cessna 150/152s.

Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice.

In the end, it comes down to what do YOU like...
 
I was wondering what the advantages are between Conventional gear and Tricycle gear.
The fundamental difference, say, in landing, where it really is noticeable, is that trikes have the CG forward of he mains, and taildraggrs have the CG aft of the mains.
If you're not 100% straight, any plane (without trailing-link gear)will pivot on whatever main wheel hits first, or is more forward. With nosewheel airplanes, that swinging movement, within limits, is not a big deal, because the CG will want to move towards the centerline, taking the nose with it. This makes them sort of center themselves as you touch down and start to roll. It's not an idiot-proof setup, but it helps.

Taildraggers have the CG behind the mains, which means if you touch down crooked, or it tries to point into the wind as you roll and you don't or can't correct it in time, the tail will want to come around to the front, and the nose will move away from the centerline. The problem with this is pretty obvious.

I already know Tricycles are better with taxiing and Conventional's have less drag and higher prop clearance.
There is a lot of good to be said about maneuvering tailwheels (once you get the hang of it), but it is also true that many trikes are very maneuverable. The disadvantages of tailwheels are:

Visibilty (although most are bearable, and some are real good, like the Champ). This can also be a problem as you take off or land, but only for brief moments (with some but notothers).

Wind. Strong wind can be a problem taxiing any airplane, but taildraggers, again because of the CG position, tend to "weathervane" more. You really do have to "fly it until it's tied down", especially a small, light taildragger.



Any other differences?
The drag thing is not significant, because any amount of drag can be overcome with power. A lot of little taildraggers are extremely draggy, and they fly fine, albeit slowly. But put a nosewheel on one, as they did with the excellent Pacer, and it does slow down even more. Unless you put a bigger engine on it. Likewise, take a Cessna 150 or whatever and put a tailwheel on it, and it will be lighter and faster, but not very much.

One nice thing about tailwheels is that they are easier and less expensive to maintain. Although tail wheels take a lot of abuse, they are usually simpler: no gas or hydraulic pistons, no fancy linkages, and they don't interface with the engine mounts. And if your tailwheel or its linkage breaks, or the tire goes flat, as you take off or land, it is usually less of a problem than with a nosewheel!!

The in-fight characteristics are usually not much different, and with taildraggers, any differences have more to do with the antiquated design of some older types and less to do with the positon of the CG (which is usually about where the center of lift of the wing is, just like with nosewheel planes).


Oh and which do you think is cooler?
As stated above, it's a matter of taste, really... most of the horror stories you hear about taildraggers come from experiences by pilots transitioning from nosewheels to tailwheels. Most of the gushing you hear about the joy of flying taildraggers comes from people who were attracted to them before even trying one (like me), or people who learned on them (like the guy who taught me how to fly one). I think they're cooler, but that's just me. It really doesn't have much to do with them being "trickier" or whatever, I can't really put my finger on it.
 
Conventional gear will almost always be lighter. In many taildraggers it's impossible to see over the nose when landing or taxiing
Like this?

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That picture was taken when we were lined up with the runway. It gets better when the tail comes up:
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I was wondering what the advantages are between Conventional gear and Tricycle gear. I already know Tricycles are better with taxiing and Conventional's have less drag and higher prop clearance. Any other differences? Oh and which do you think is cooler? :wink2: Thanks!

A lot of folks have mentioned the pros and cons of each type, but after nearly ten years flying mine, I think the most important difference is the landing. You must land my Luscombe straight with the direction of travel. Period. The C-172 and other tricycle-geared airplanes will take side load. Mine will not.

I think another difference that it is an airplane that does not forgive excessive airspeed on landing. You don't add speed for your mama, your brothers and your sisters, etc....

Mine taxis fine, very maneuverable. I have heel brakes, which I happen to like. I can see over the nose, mainly because I have custom seats. I have a stick. I don't have flaps. My airplane is not a bush plane or a great cross-country airplane, but it is a joy to fly, which is why I think it's the coolest. :D

Deb
 

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A lot of folks have mentioned the pros and cons of each type, but after nearly ten years flying mine, I think the most important difference is the landing. You must land my Luscombe straight with the direction of travel. Period. The C-172 and other tricycle-geared airplanes will take side load. Mine will not.

I think another difference that it is an airplane that does not forgive excessive airspeed on landing. You don't add speed for your mama, your brothers and your sisters, etc....

Mine taxis fine, very maneuverable. I have heel brakes, which I happen to like. I can see over the nose, mainly because I have custom seats. I have a stick. I don't have flaps. My airplane is not a bush plane or a great cross-country airplane, but it is a joy to fly, which is why I think it's the coolest. :D

Deb

I'm willing to bet you have dainty feet and are generally not considered a large person.:smilewinkgrin: In the PA 12, from my seating position I couldn't hardly use them, but then, didn't really need them much either. Once or twice I had to get on them and I had a heck of a time with finesse because I would basically have to use my thigh muscles pushing levering a hyperextention at my ankles off the balls of my feet on the rudder pedals, which made things a bit sketchy. I've been in a few other planes with heel brakes, mostly Pipers that had me in the same position. A buddy had a Luscombe, but it didn't have brakes...:rolleyes:
 
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