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So say the Class C is reporting 200 1/2. You're transitioning through the core at 2,000 ft and VFR. Is a SVFR clearance required?
SVFR Class C
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roncachamp
Final Approach
Assuming you're at least 1000' above the cloud layer, no.
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Part 2, same weather. You're landing at a hospital just inside the C with no weather reporting and can maintain VMC. SVFR required?
roncachamp
Final Approach
Yes, you're within the lateral boundaries of controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport when the ceiling is less than 1,000 feet.
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I'm doing an online aviation course. It shows landing at a hospital within a Class E surface area as being being authorized VMC because it's not the primary. It then goes on to say landing at a hospital within a Class C surface requires a SVFR clearance though. Just wondering why the difference in the two? Isn't the clearance for SVFR based on weather reported at the intended airport of departure / arrival?
write-stuff
En-Route
What course is it?
roncachamp
Final Approach
The course is in error with regard to the Class E surface area. FAR 91.155(d) treats all surface areas the same regardless of class of airspace, FAR 91.157 does not mention airspace classes.
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It's a company course. Something we have to do monthly. Just seems to be in error to me.
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Ok, part 3. Ceiling is reported as 900 ft at the primary airport of the Class C. Could you transition at 800 ft AGL, without a SVFR if you're able to maintain 2,000 ft horizontal?
roncachamp
Final Approach
No. You couldn't do that even if the ceiling was reported as 1000' as you'd be within 500' of the clouds above.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Why don't you give a try at answering them? Sounds like the answers are all pretty straight-forward with a little looking and reading (I'm thinking a total of two regs covers it all). Don't worry. If you are wrong you'll hear it from multiple sources!!! 
So, are you stating the questions verbatim and is there a chart to go along with the question? The answer to airspace questions tend to involve looking at one and determining what is there, rather than some hypothetical that might or might not exits in the real world.
So, are you stating the questions verbatim and is there a chart to go along with the question? The answer to airspace questions tend to involve looking at one and determining what is there, rather than some hypothetical that might or might not exits in the real world.
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Why don't you give a try at answering them? Sounds like the answers are all pretty straight-forward with a little looking and reading (I'm thinking a total of two regs covers it all). Don't worry. If you are wrong you'll hear it from multiple sources!!!
So, are you stating the questions verbatim and is there a chart to go along with the question? The answer to airspace questions tend to involve looking at one and determining what is there, rather than some hypothetical that might or might not exits in the real world.
Why don't you give a try at answering them? Sounds like the answers are all pretty straight-forward with a little looking and reading (I'm thinking a total of two regs covers it all). Don't worry. If you are wrong you'll hear it from multiple sources!!!
So, are you stating the questions verbatim and is there a chart to go along with the question? The answer to airspace questions tend to involve looking at one and determining what is there, rather than some hypothetical that might or might not exits in the real world.
Oh I'd say SVFR is clear as mud to some controllers.
http://www.stuckmic.com/faa-rules-regulations/24656-class-d-airspace.html
I agree with what Steven said above. I think it gets a little gray with the destination weather. The .65 specifically states the clearance is based on the weather conditions reported at the airport of intended landing / departure. 91.155 (D) (2), suggests this as well but specifically mentions visibility. By my understanding, landing at a hospital in a surface area can be done VMC no matter what tower tower reports as vis, as long as a pilot has 3 miles flight vis. A ceiling below 1,000 ft reported at the tower would be a no go even if you can maintain 2000 ft horizontal at the hospital.
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luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
It's based on part of the weather at the airport for which the Surface Area is established. The reported visibilty at the primary airport is not pertinent, your flight visibility is. The reported ceiling at the primary airport is pertinent. You may not operate beneath that ceiling within the Surface Area if it is less than 1000. The ceiling is a number. Legally, you may not operate beneath that number even if you are between the clouds in a broken ceiling or even if all of those clouds are over there on the other side of the airport and the sky in your immediate vicinity is CAVU.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ah, I didn't realize this was in the part of the forum that is about what rules controllers follow. I took the question as being about what rules pilots have to follow. Sorry.
roncachamp
Final Approach
§91.155 Basic VFR weather minimums.
(d) Except as provided in §91.157 of this part, no person may take off or land an aircraft, or enter the traffic pattern of an airport, under VFR, within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport—
(1) Unless ground visibility at that airport is at least 3 statute miles; or
(2) If ground visibility is not reported at that airport, unless flight visibility during landing or takeoff, or while operating in the traffic pattern is at least 3 statute miles.
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And that's the way I un
It's not. Just posted that because I thought it was interesting controller debate on SVFR procedures.
It's not. Just posted that because I thought it was interesting controller debate on SVFR procedures.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
If the Class E surface are has official weather reporting, it's the reported visibility. just as it is for the others. If there is no reported visibility it is the flight visibility.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ah. I'm still curious what the exact questions are and whether there was an airspace associated with it.
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Can't attach it because it's a company course. Just tried to log in and it shows me as having completed it so I can't get back into it.
Basically it had IFR being reported at the primary airport in the C and said you couldn't land in a hospital within the C. Later on it had an example of IFR being reported at the primary airport of a Class E surface area but you could land at a hospital within the surface area if you could maintain VMC going there. Forgot the actual weather being reported at the primary. I used 200 1/2 as an example.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
The juxtaposition "IFR being reported but can maintain VMC" honestly confuses me. Is the example one in the ceiling is reported to be 200 and 1/2 (IMC) but it's actually 1200 and 3? (VMC)?
The rules for landing at Class E surface areas under VFR are the same as for the Class D, C and B surface areas. Ceiling 1,000', 3 miles visibility (ground if reported; flight if not), plus the ability to maintain 500' below, 500' above and 2,000 lateral from clouds based on flight visibility.
If the course suggests there is a difference based on whether or not it is the "primary airport" rather than whether it is "within the lateral boundaries of the surface area" that has weather reporting, I think it is incorrect.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
I've got a feeling that seeing as how the discrepency is between a C and an E, that somewhere, in one of those questions there was something about communications. Or, the guy who wrote the questions had communication requirements on his mind but it didn't get down his arm to the pencil.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Not necessarily. The sky above could be blue for a mile around, but in Velocity's 900 foot ceiling example, transitioning at 800 feet, he would be below the "ceiling"
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
ROTFL. If ya wanna have some fun, get a bunch of controllers in a room with a couple of cases of beer. Yell SVFR, lock the door and run.
One thing that wasn't brought up in that link was that the pilot is the "sole authority" on cancellation of IFR. Now if that guy who reported tops are 700, I'm cancelling, was below 1700 when he did it, he was illegal.
"The Field is IFR" has caused a lot of pilots to be jerked around over the years. This used to happen in the old Control Zone days. A Control Zone was from the surface to 14,500. Controllers would think they had to deny transitions of the Control Zone at any altitude if the "Field was IFR." (all the not operating below a ceiling less than 1000 rules were there then also) Things got cleaned up a little when Control Zones were replaced by Surface Areas, the tops of them are at more reasonable altitudes. But the "Field is IFR" still caused problems. At CRQ a number of years ago Controllers were denying pilots flying VFR through the Surface areas (not landing or taking off) there when the "Field was IFR." There was no ceiling, the restriction to VFR was visibility only.
Anyway, knowing that ATC might get upset and try to violate you for their misinterpretation, make sure you are "clean" if you cancel "against their will."
roncachamp
Final Approach
Weather reporting is a requirement for the establishment of a surface area so if there is no reported visibility it's because the AWOS/ASOS is on the fritz or the human observer is absent.
roncachamp
Final Approach
But not far enough below the ceiling, the minimum is 500'.
The operative word in the control zone ceiling minimums is "beneath the ceiling."
Hank S
En-Route
I once had to avoid a Class D, when my course took me through it to my non-towered home field just outside the far edge. They were calling some crazy low ceiling; I told them I could see steam from a smokestack going across the field. Outside of it, skies were mostly clear with visibility much greater than 10 miles. They insisted their field was IFR, although maybe 100-150' of the 6500' runway was covered.
So I looped around them . . . Sometimes us pilots don't have much of a choice.
So I looped around them . . . Sometimes us pilots don't have much of a choice.
Just because the field is IFR doesn't mean VFR can't transit the class D. Again, the rule says you can't operate beneath the ceiling when the ceiling is below 1000'
Hank S
En-Route
Tower told me, "the field is IFR. Remain clear of the class Delta." So I did.
I'd have had a call with the Supe the next business day. They should NOT have done that.
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Which is why I attached that controller thread. A lot of controllers don't understand the rule and will keep a VFR transition out of their airspace.
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midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Without knowing a lot more, I don't really have a problem with that one. It may be about traffic control rather than regulation misunderstanding.
They have IFR aircraft taking off and landing at a field that is IFR. They may just be trying to keep arrival and departure routes clear so, for example, an airplane taking off doesn't pop though the clouds to find a 152 tooling around less than a minute in front of them.
You can see that being done every day when a Class C TRACON instructs airplanes to "remain clear of the Class C" when severe clear VFR.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Helicopter?
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Correct.
The only difference a helicopter makes is in class G airspace and during special VFR. It doesn't change the answer for the question asked.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Does a LOA (letter of agreement) exist between the company you fly for and the airport in question? If so and as a minimum, if you can "maintain visual reference to the surface and adhere to several separation minima from IFR aircraft" then you can special VFR it up all day long.
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Correct. Steven answered it already.
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Well that's a different story but yes I do fly out of a hospital that's located in the C and we have an LOA with them.
The questions above were just general operating questions on transitions and landing / departing from a satellite field (hospital) within the surface area.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Helicopters may be operated at less than the minimum sector altitudes than fixed wing.
An LOA doesn't allow you to to ignore 91.155 and 91.157. It can obviate the need for the two-way communication requirement.