Suggestions for a Family plane cheap

[JesseD]

Now when I say cheap, it's relative, and I'm talking price per hour / average annual cost cheap vs it's competitors.

Background on use:

Lower time pilot so I would prefer a forgiving plane.

2 (120 / 195 lbs) adults, 2 (5 & 7) beanpole kids, 2 dogs (20 & 45 lbs)

Would like a good range if possible, as we might be moving to Europe in a couple years.

It doesn't need to be flashy, just a bus I was thinking Cherokee 6 originally, but was told they were a tad underpowered for bus use.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I was thinking Cherokee 6 originally, but was told they were a tad underpowered for bus use.

Who told you that? IMO, a Cherokee 6-300 is right up your alley. Not so much the 260 HP model. A Cessna 206 fits the bill too.

Until you said two dogs, I was going to suggest an Archer.

 

[Dean]

Greg has pointed out two good planes, but I will through in the C-182, C-177(180HP), Cherokee 180 or 235.

 

[alaskaflyer]

It doesn't need to be flashy, just a bus I was thinking Cherokee 6 originally, but was told they were a tad underpowered for bus use.

Huh? Ever pushed in the throttle on 300 horses?

And outside of the mountains the 260 model will do very well at GW too.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Greg has pointed out two good planes, but I will through in the C-182, C-177(180HP), Cherokee 180 or 235.

With two dogs in the mix, a 4 place airplane just doesn't leave much room for baggage.:wink2:

 

[Tom-D]

http://www.controller.com/listingsd.../CESSNA-210/1960-CESSNA-210/1162257.htm?dlr=1

 

[CJones]

Cherokee Six-300 is about as close to 'bus' as you can get. Not much for speed but you can load it to the gills and go for a long time.

 

[COFlyBoy]

Who told you that? IMO, a Cherokee 6-300 is right up your alley. Not so much the 260 HP model. A Cessna 206 fits the bill too.

Until you said two dogs, I was going to suggest an Archer.

I fly a PA-32-260 in Colorado. Routinely load it with me (190#), my wife (125#), 3 kids (150# total), a dog and 150# of camping stuff. With fuel to the tabs (5 hours endurance) we come in 500 lbs under gross. Performance is fine at 7000'+ DAs. We've flown in and out of Walden, CO (8153 MSL) in the summer with no problems. I've also taken it over Rollins Pass @ 12,500 (pass is 11,671 MSL, aka Corona Pass) with no issues.

This is not to say a 300 wouldn't be better than a 260, but I don't think you should turn up your nose at a 260 if one comes along at the right price. In the 260 we average a little over 130kts cruise using 14 GPH.

 

[Baron2PG]

I too think a Cherokee 6 but for more bang I'd go with the Lance which is the 6 with retractable gear. Dragging the gear on the 6 costs you about 20+ knots. I flew a Turbo Lance for years and it was an excellent flying family suburban. I've managed to put a loveseat, motorcycle, foosball table amongst other things into the Lance.

 

[JesseD]

Hmm, not sure, a different pilot / CFI before the new FBO that took over had their open house. If a 6-300 fits the bill, great.

Lance what?

Edit, duh, saw one on ASO

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Dragging the gear on the 6 costs you about 20+ knots.

Retracting the gear on a Lance equates to $$$

 

[dmccormack]

Cessna 205

IO-470, 8-14 GPH (depending on how you push it) and will carry whatever you can stuff in.

Oh -- and 40 degrees of flaps for getting down and stopped in no time.

 

[Anthony]

Would like a good range if possible, as we might be moving to Europe in a couple years.

OK. That's the deal breaker. And you expect to fly there? Or fly the plane there and operate it there? Clarification required on this one.

My company was going to move me to Hong Kong. I had to factor selling the plane and not flying for quite a while. Europe ain't much better for GA flying.

 

[JesseD]

OK. That's the deal breaker. And you expect to fly there? Or fly the plane there and operate it there? Clarification required on this one.

My company was going to move me to Hong Kong. I had to factor selling the plane and not flying for quite a while. Europe ain't much better for GA flying.

I'd probably have it ferried there if possible / plausible.

I'd like to keep flying there, though I don't know costs for it. Considering that if we move there we'll probably be there for ten years or so, I don't relish the idea of getting my cert just to have it lapse in 3 years...

 

[weilke]

I'd probably have it ferried there if possible / plausible.

Can be done with any of the aircraft mentioned here. It's not cheap, so given the value of the type of plane you are talking about, you may look at a one-way trip and sell the plane at the end of your assignment.

I'd like to keep flying there, though I don't know costs for it. Considering that if we move there we'll probably be there for ten years or so, I don't relish the idea of getting my cert just to have it lapse in 3 years...

Pricey, particularly in a fuel-guzzler like a Six or 206 (fuel-guzzler compared with the 160-180hp 4-seaters more common in europe).

If you stay for a longer period (6months or so), you also have to pay 15-20% VAT and according to a recent change of rules, you will have to get a local pilots license in whichever country you are based.

 

[gprellwitz]

And if you're looking to use it while living in Europe, make sure that you're aware of the things that EASA has been trying to do lately to US registered planes and pilots in Europe. Peter-h started a thread ([thread]38168[/thread]) on it last month. It's quieted down for now, and I don't want to spread FUD, but you should at least be aware of the possibility.

 

[somorris]

Jesse: If you are really going to move to Europe, you might be wise to postpone buying until you know more.

 

[write-stuff]

I'm in agreement on the Cherokee 6 and the Cessna 206. Two good choices. The 206 would definitely be easier to load and is arguably easier to fly. I suspect the Cherokee would be faster though.

 

[JesseD]

Jesse: If you are really going to move to Europe, you might be wise to postpone buying until you know more.

The wife and I have a unique situation, as we can get EU passports. We've figured on living there 10 years to take the kids all over Europe. I'm a little skittish now, because I love flying and don't want to give it up. We wouldn't need the plane there, but still, I'll have to look at that cost now.

 

[alaskaflyer]

I'm in agreement on the Cherokee 6 and the Cessna 206. Two good choices. The 206 would definitely be easier to load and is arguably easier to fly. I suspect the Cherokee would be faster though.

Hmmm. For the sake of discussion...

Apples to apples (300 horsies NA) they have very similar cruise speeds with the Six a little faster down low. The 206 has a lower stall and a higher service ceiling and (seems to me) a better climb rate. I think it is a wash as to ease of loading. Most 206s are the U206 or the later Stationaire series which has one front door like the Cherokee, and both have great wide loading doors in back (the Six after the first couple of model years.) The Six has more interior volume including better width and better headroom for seats 5 and 6.

Piper or Cessna, high wing or low wing, that is the question.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

FYI, ferrying to EU will cost you. Price I've heard is $4,000 plus expenses, and those expenses aren't gonna be cheap.

 

[JesseD]

FYI, ferrying to EU will cost you. Price I've heard is $4,000 plus expenses, and those expenses aren't gonna be cheap.

Which (with all the other info I've been looking up) leads me to consider a partnership here and there even before the ferry. Buying outright seems like a poor choice, as it's looking like I'd have to sell on both sides of the pond.

 

[poadeleted20]

PA32, maybe C-206 or BE36. Nothing else in a single will hack it for cabin volume, and a newer BE36 may be iffy on payload.

 

[rotorhead1026]

Jesse, it looks to me like you need to do a LOT more research on Europe. The costs of operating a light aircraft over there are enormous, and the bureaucratic hurdles (for a long stay) are formidable - or so I'm told. You can rent fairly easily, if not cheaply. In any event your certificate won't "lapse"; get a medical and a BFR when you return (you can even find people "over there" to do it) and you're good to go.

As for your domestic mission profile, ditto on the PA32-300.

 

[LearDriver]

Would you plan to fly IFR in Europe or just stay VFR? How many hours per year are you planning on flying when you are over there?

 

[JesseD]

Would you plan to fly IFR in Europe or just stay VFR? How many hours per year are you planning on flying when you are over there?

Both, I'm hoping that by the time we move the ****ing contest between the US and Europe will be over. As for hours per year, that will kind of be dictated by the job, but I'm hoping for about 150 per year. We'll see what the wife and I can work out for vacation at that time.

 

[JesseD]

If you stay for a longer period (6months or so), you also have to pay 15-20% VAT and according to a recent change of rules, you will have to get a local pilots license in whichever country you are based.

Now here's a question: do they go off of the price on the bill of sale or do they do an assessment.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Cessna 205

IO-470, 8-14 GPH (depending on how you push it) and will carry whatever you can stuff in.

Oh -- and 40 degrees of flaps for getting down and stopped in no time.

He said cheap!

Your friend still have his 205 on the market at a price that will keep both he and his wife happy?

 

[poadeleted20]

Cessna 205

IO-470, 8-14 GPH (depending on how you push it) and will carry whatever you can stuff in.

The 260 HP IO-470 in the C-205 isn't going to be burning any 8 GPH except maybe during pretakeoff run-up. Figure more like that top-end 14 GPH for cruise (maybe 12 GPH if you throttle back). Also, it will not "carry whatever you can stuff in." Typical useful loads are more like 1550 lb, leaving about 1050 lb payload with full 84 gallons of fuel, and you can easily stuff more than that in the cabin, although it is enough to carry the OP's load.

 

[Anthony]

As for hours per year, that will kind of be dictated by the job, but I'm hoping for about 150 per year.

Have you checked the price of avgas in Europe? Do you know about the fees they charge for ATC, landings, etc?

 

[weilke]

Now here's a question: do they go off of the price on the bill of sale or do they do an assessment.

I dont know.

For the longest time, Denmark didn't collect a VAT on larger capital items such as aircraft. So most aircraft brought to the EU space where imported through a trust arrangement in Denmark and then transferred VAT-free to the final owner elsewhere in the EU. That loophole closed maybe 2 years ago.

Right now, Luxembourg seems to be the lowest at 15% (most others are 17-20%), I have no idea whether that rate applies to aircraft as well. If you have a choice on where your first assigment is, that may be a consideration.

There are occasionally N-register planes for sale that are already in europe. Given the expense of ferrying and importation, you may be better off just buying one of them, even if it is not the family hauler you were looking for (of course you need to do your due diligence that all taxes have been paid and maintenance been performed with FAA-IA signoffs etc.)

 

[gismo]

The 260 HP IO-470 in the C-205 isn't going to be burning any 8 GPH except maybe during pretakeoff run-up. Figure more like that top-end 14 GPH for cruise (maybe 12 GPH if you throttle back). Also, it will not "carry whatever you can stuff in." Typical useful loads are more like 1550 lb, leaving about 1050 lb payload with full 84 gallons of fuel, and you can easily stuff more than that in the cabin, although it is enough to carry the OP's load.

Ron, the 260HP IO470-Ls I had in my Baron would produce 65% power on 11.5 gph running LOP or a bit over 12 gph ROP. Up high where max power at normal cruise RPM was 55% or less, around10 gph was typical at peak EGT. The most the engine could manage at 8 gph would be around 40-45% which might be enough to fly at best range speed.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Ron, the 260HP IO470-Ls I had in my Baron would produce 65% power on 11.5 gph running LOP or a bit over 12 gph ROP. Up high where max power at normal cruise RPM was 55% or less, around10 gph was typical at peak EGT. The most the engine could manage at 8 gph would be around 40-45% which might be enough to fly at best range speed.

In the thread here where a nice 205 is for sale Dan experimented and came up with a profile where the fuel flow showed 8gph. I think it was 20/2100 and leaned to peak, or similar, and showed about 110kts IAS, below 10K.

 

[LearDriver]

Have you checked the price of avgas in Europe? Do you know about the fees they charge for ATC, landings, etc?

Most people from the states don't realize just how expensive it can be to operate GA aircraft in Europe if you intend to operate IFR. VFR is really not an option on a consistent basis . It seems like the only time that you can really operate VFR is in the summer. VFR will also not get you out of landing, and airport fees.