Student XC's w/ missing endorsement in medical?

[Unregistered]

What happens in the following situation:

A student pilot is endorsed in his logbook for his cross countries and makes 1 or more of them, but the CFI forgets to sign the solo XC section of his student pilot certificate before sending student off on his merry way?

Later CFI and student realize the problem but CFI will not back-date the medical.

1) Who, if anyone, has the FAR violation?
2) Is student screwed with regard to his XC time so far in that it doesn't count?
3) Should student file ASRS report?
This has happened to someone I know.

 

[Unregistered]

Additional questions:

If the xc time doesn't count for the rating, can my friend still count the time for total hours and log it PIC? He was signed off to solo in the aircraft, and was sole manipulator and alone in the cockpit the entire time.

 

[poadeleted20]

1) Who, if anyone, has the FAR violation?

Both CFI and student. And the CFI is shooting himself in the foot by not putting the backdated endorsement on the medical/student certificate, since he is then documenting his own violation of releasing the student on the XC without checking for the proper endorsement on the certificate.

If the CFI is unsure about this, please have him call me at (410) 430-4078, or better yet, an aviation attorney with whom he can speak in confidence. If he calls me, tell him NOT to give me his name or any details, but just to ask a hypothetical question anonymously, without stating anything as a fact of something that has occurred -- that way, there's nothing I can be compelled to say against his interest.

2) Is student screwed with regard to his XC time so far in that it doesn't count?

No. The time counts, regardless, but without the backdated endorsement, the student and his instructor are in deep trouble when the examiner looks at the student's log and certificate when he takes the practical test.

3) Should student file ASRS report?

I don't think so, as this does not seem to be an inadvertant violation. The student flew the hop he intended to fly and is responsible for the regs governing the flight. I could be wrong, so the student would do well to consult a real aviation attorney -- and quickly, as the student has only ten days after the flight to file the report, but if the violation is deemed deliberate, the report could be used against him. The student should get competent legal advice NOW, and then decide whether or not to file an ASRS report.

 

[poadeleted20]

If the xc time doesn't count for the rating, can my friend still count the time for total hours and log it PIC? He was signed off to solo in the aircraft, and was sole manipulator and alone in the cockpit the entire time.

61.51 does not come into this, as it does not say anything about being endorsed for XC, only that the student have solo priviliges in the aircraft. It's loggable per 61.51, but, of course, that entry, when combined with the unendorsed student certificate, provides a signed admission of guilt.

However, I'm concerned by a slight difference in this and the first post, which said the student was signed off in his logbook for solo XC. This post says only "solo." That is a significant difference. Part of the issue will hinge on whether the student had the proper 61.93(c)(2)(i) solo XC and 61.93(c)(2)(ii) "day of the flight" endorsements in his logbook in addition to the basic 61.87(n) solo endorsements. If those were done, and only the 61.93(c)(1) "back of the certificate" solo XC endorsement is missing, it's clearly an administrative screw-up by the instructor, and will hang more heavily on him than the student (although both will take heat). But if the student lacked the logbook endorsements for solo XC and for that particular XC flight, then the instructor can say, "I never released him on the flight," and the student is twisting alone in the wind for several MAJOR violations.

 

[Unregistered]

Both CFI and student. And the CFI is shooting himself in the foot by not putting the backdated endorsement on the medical/student certificate, since he is then documenting his own violation of releasing the student on the XC without checking for the proper endorsement on the certificate.

Student flew first XC w/o the medical endorsement. Student flew second (long) XC recently and CFI endorsed the medical with the date he signed.

CFI is new. Student is his first. So now CFI has apparently really documented his screwup well since the endorsement on the student pilot licence is dated later than the logbook entry for the first xc.

Your advice to consult with an aviation lawyer has been passed on. I don't know if student is member of AOPA Legal.

This is a damn shame - student is close friend of mine and has been very enthusiastic about flying and has gone through a lot to get his medical and the finances to fly.

 

[Unregistered]

However, I'm concerned by a slight difference in this and the first post, which said the student was signed off in his logbook for solo XC. This post says only "solo."

Let me clarify..

Student got solo endorsement on student pilot certificate some time ago.

Student had his flight plan reviewed on the day of the first XC by CFI and CFI endorsed the cross country in his logbook, but simply forgot to sign his student pilot certificate section B.

Student flew first xc.

Student had his second flight plan (the long XC) reviewed on the day of his 2nd xc and the CFI signed his student pilot certificate for cross country at that time with that date.

Im sorry about the inconsistency in the 2nd post, I wasn't aware I'd made it sound different. What I meant by "signed off to solo" was he has endorsements that he can fly that aircraft legally as PIC, and was only referring to the requirements for logging PIC.

Mainly he is hoping his 1.8 hours from his first XC won't be totally wasted and that it can still count for something even if not for the required XC. (FAR violations notwithstanding...)

 

[Unregistered]

This is a different Anonymous.

On my first short solo XC, my instructor forgot to endorse anything (we went over the flight plan in detail - he just forgot). I flew the flight, then got home. After congratulations (and while I was paying), I pointed out that he'd never endorsed me for the flight. He got a shocked look on his face, and endorsed it right then and there. Same day.

 

[poadeleted3]

snip

Mainly he is hoping his 1.8 hours from his first XC won't be totally wasted and that it can still count for something even if not for the required XC. (FAR violations notwithstanding...)

I think he has other issues more pressing now, no doubt best handled in the manner Ron advises.

 

[Unregistered]

Anonymous #2 again -

How would the student go about fixing this? It was partly his fault, but it seems wrong to me to hit him with a violation for a paperwork error. The instructor did everything correctly EXCEPT the endorsement, and then compounded the error by using a later date when he endorsed later.

This isn't a recommendation - but does the student call the FSDO and ask their help in cleaning it up?

I can see the new CFI getting dinged for this (probably just additional training), but why hurt the student?

 

[MSmith]

I think he has other issues more pressing now, no doubt best handled in the manner Ron advises.

Agreed - re-flying the XC is probably the BEST outcome that he can hope for.

 

[MSmith]

I don't think so, as this does not seem to be an inadvertant violation.

I dunno - seems pretty inadvertent to me on the student's part.

Think back (many years if necessary). You're a student. You've finally gotten good weather to fly your solo XC, and you're busy with your CFI going over your flight plan, weather, the plane, etc. Your CFI decides that you're ready, and you hand him your logbook and medical.

The CFI hands you back your logbook and medical (probably taped/tucked into the logbook) and wishes you luck. You leave on your way and have a blast.

Then you get home, close your flight plan, and get hearty congratulations from your CFI and the rest of the guys hanging around. You pay for the flight, and head home in a buoyant mood.

You've assumed that the CFI endorsed things correctly, but he didn't.

Sounds inadvertent to me on the student's part. Probably on the CFI's part as well, but he should know better so it probably won't fly as a defense for the CFI.

 

[Greebo]

Well, it sounds like this is the CFI's first student - so it probably was inadvertant on his part too.

What a sucky situation for both!

 

[woodstock]

it would seem to me he DID endorse him, he just didn't endorse in writing. he gave him permission, as evidenced by the first signature, and forgot the second. dating it later kinda blows that out of the water though.

 

[gismo]

I wonder how long it would take to get a replacement student cert. This would all go away if the original was "lost" and a replacement was dated "correctly".

 

[T Bone]

Hypothetical question here..... does anyone know the proceedure for a replacement student pilot /medical certificate, if one were to inadvertantly lose or destroy same? I'd imagine, the CFI's signatures would have to be recreated from memory (logbook data being used to back up same memory?)? I mean... c'mon!

Realisticly, though this situation sucks, I'd put decent odds on it never being an issue if no one brought it up in the first place. I am CERTAIN that My DE didn't compare dates on my 3rd class medical with entries in my log book. I'm sure there are some out there who would, but I bet they're few and far between.

 

[T Bone]

I wonder how long it would take to get a replacement student cert. This would all go away if the original was "lost" and a replacement was dated "correctly".

....great minds, Lance....

And BTW... how'd it get destroyed? Laundry does horrible things to paper like that!

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Anonymous #2 again -

How would the student go about fixing this? It was partly his fault, but it seems wrong to me to hit him with a violation for a paperwork error. The instructor did everything correctly EXCEPT the endorsement, and then compounded the error by using a later date when he endorsed later.

Pilot certificates have become lost; student pilot certificates, too. I'm sure that more than one has fallen into a disastrous end. IOW, a paper shredder--accidentally, of course. Lost student pilot certificates can be replaced by the FSDO.

Certainly I would never suggest that anyone commit deliberate fraud; merely noting what a dangerous world this can be for a poor, hapless pilot certificate.

This isn't a recommendation - but does the student call the FSDO and ask their help in cleaning it up?

FSDOs do provide duplicate student pilot certificates, so, yes, I could see where calling the FSDO might be appropriate under the proper circumstances. Once replaced, the CFI would recreate the appropriate endorsements, which, I'm sure, the original certificate contained.

I can see the new CFI getting dinged for this (probably just additional training), but why hurt the student?

The CFI could be in for a world of hurt. Why commit Hari Kari over a simple lost/destroyed student pilot certificate?

 

[poadeleted20]

Student flew first XC w/o the medical endorsement. Student flew second (long) XC recently and CFI endorsed the medical with the date he signed.

CFI is new. Student is his first. So now CFI has apparently really documented his screwup well since the endorsement on the student pilot licence is dated later than the logbook entry for the first xc.

Your advice to consult with an aviation lawyer has been passed on. I don't know if student is member of AOPA Legal.

This is a damn shame - student is close friend of mine and has been very enthusiastic about flying and has gone through a lot to get his medical and the finances to fly.

OK, here's a thought...

Let's say a student's medical/student certificate is lost or destroyed (say, left in pocket and sent through the wash). The student obtains a duplicate through the standard procedure (see http://registry.faa.gov/airmen.asp#Replacementofcertificates, and note that you can do this on line and you can request a faxed temporary certificate that will be in your hands within a day or two -- see 14 CFR 61.29), but, of course, the endorsements are blank. The instructor then recreates the endorsements based on the dates of the endosements in the student's logbook.

Now, I'm not suggesting that anyone deliberately cover up an illegal flight. But if the instructor gave the student the proper training, and put the proper endorsements in the log, and the only problem is an incorrect date on the student's certificate, and that certificate is accidentally destroyed...

 

[gibbons]

But if the instructor gave the student the proper training, and put the proper endorsements in the log, and the only problem is an incorrect date on the student's certificate, and that certificate is accidentally destroyed...

And if the instructor didn't know anything about the wash incident until after the fact, he wouldn't have much choice but to endorse the new certificate based on the log book, right? I would think he'd truly be off the hook.

 

[woodstock]

but if he truly did endorse and just forget to sign, that's only administrative, right? could you still get dinged for that?

 

[Henning]

What happens in the following situation:

A student pilot is endorsed in his logbook for his cross countries and makes 1 or more of them, but the CFI forgets to sign the solo XC section of his student pilot certificate before sending student off on his merry way?

Later CFI and student realize the problem but CFI will not back-date the medical.

1) Who, if anyone, has the FAR violation?
2) Is student screwed with regard to his XC time so far in that it doesn't count?
3) Should student file ASRS report?
This has happened to someone I know.

Uhhh, that instructor is nuts, everyone makes an administrative error occasionaly, and when you are given an opportunity to rectify that error before it ever becomes a factor, you take it. Otherwise is stupid and will get him a violation. I would dump the guy as an instructor as he is not capable of teaching good judgement and sense.

Edit: BTW, They're both in trouble, the instructor more so. The student will get a talking to at worst, the instructor may get some remedial on rules. Unless someone has a record of mistakes or shows a negative attitude, neither will have a great adverse reaction like a fine or suspension.

 

[Henning]

Hypothetical question here..... does anyone know the proceedure for a replacement student pilot /medical certificate, if one were to inadvertantly lose or destroy same? I'd imagine, the CFI's signatures would have to be recreated from memory (logbook data being used to back up same memory?)? I mean... c'mon!

Realisticly, though this situation sucks, I'd put decent odds on it never being an issue if no one brought it up in the first place. I am CERTAIN that My DE didn't compare dates on my 3rd class medical with entries in my log book. I'm sure there are some out there who would, but I bet they're few and far between.

NEVER assume what an examiner will or will not notice. When I sat for my private, my instructor added up 40.0 hrs, I added up 40.0, the DE added up 39.9, line by line, not page bottoms, and inspected all the remarks and endorsements. He told me to do a lap around the pattern while he had a cup of coffee and then we'd begin. The situation needs to be remedied before that.

 

[poadeleted3]

NEVER assume what an examiner will or will not notice. When I sat for my private, my instructor added up 40.0 hrs, I added up 40.0, the DE added up 39.9, line by line, not page bottoms, and inspected all the remarks and endorsements. He told me to do a lap around the pattern while he had a cup of coffee and then we'd begin. The situation needs to be remedied before that.

Exactly. My DE went through my logbook with a fine toothed comb. Of course, it didn't help that my instructor had not logged an endorsement (which I asked her, about darn it, and she said I didn't need) so he suddenly developed the need to go through the rest of the book while we waited on her faxed endorsement before proceeding with the rest of the oral. It DID help that I'd gone through the book and highlighted all the different requirements with color coded highlighters. He just went through adding up all the colored entries. Might have been the most nervewracking part of the whole ride, except for waiting to hear what he said after I landed awfully long on my engine out, no flaps landing.

 

[poadeleted20]

but if he truly did endorse and just forget to sign, that's only administrative, right? could you still get dinged for that?

Absolutely yes. The FAA once even suspended an instructor's ticket for not using the right verbiage in the endorsement. They are very, very sticky about endorsements -- if you don't use the AC 61-65D language and sign it properly, they will eat you alive. In other words, the endorsement ain't an endorsement if it isn't properly worded and signed. In the case under discussion, either the absence of the signature or the date being after the XC flight constitutes an open-and-shut case against both student and instructor.

For reference, see Administrator v. Couillard: http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4634.PDF

 

[Ken Ibold]

Absolutely yes. The FAA once even suspended an instructor's ticket for not using the right verbiage in the endorsement. They are very, very sticky about endorsements -- if you don't use the AC 61-65D language and sign it properly, they will eat you alive. In other words, the endorsement ain't an endorsement if it isn't properly worded and signed. In the case under discussion, either the absence of the signature or the date being after the XC flight constitutes an open-and-shut case against both student and instructor.

For reference, see Administrator v. Couillard: http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4634.PDF

Gosh, the more this gets discussed, the more I understand why "accidents will happen." Darn shame the bureaucracy has come to this, IMO.

 

[wsuffa]

Gosh, the more this gets discussed, the more I understand why "accidents will happen." Darn shame the bureaucracy has come to this, IMO.

Ken, paperwork becomes more important than the ability to perform because it is the paper trail (or "continuity of evidence", as some like to say). Since the FAA doesn't do the training, all they can do is rely on the paperwork to push liability onto someone else.

I once knew 2 government employees that would get into contests about how many log violations they could find. After all, log violations were easy to prove. In writing up the violations, they would allege that the person "failed to do" whatever they were supposed to log. When they responded that they actually "did" whatever but forgot to log it, the agency nailed 'em to the wall for the logging violation. You cannot avoid self-incrimination under this form of administrative law.

BTW, I agree with you.

And one agency got it right - the FCC eliminated many of their logging requirements, but now burn their licensees for any violation when there is no log (before, if a log showed basic ongoing compliance, a lesser penalty might apply in the case of violation).

<sigh>

 

[gismo]

Whats all the fuss? Sounds like a QA problem to me. The FAA doesn't accept "pen and ink changes" anymore? Get the original document where the dates were incorrectly entered and make a single line thru, write the correct info adjacent to, and initial and date the corrected entry. This is not rocket science.

I'm sure the FAA would accept properly made alterations, but such a change would likely raise questions. If the CFI had simply written the wrong date when he endorsed the certificate (on the correct date) then such a correction ought to be quite acceptable. OTOH changing the date to an inaccurate but more "desireable" one would clearly be falsifying and subject to enforcement if the truth were known. Given that the original date happens to correspond to the second x/c flight flown on a later date would no doubt increase the suspicion, leaving the only options of confessing the sin and the coverup or lying convincingly.

 

[BillG]

Geez, it just seems like a no-brainer - "lose" the incriminating certificate and don't screw up the new one...

 

[Unregistered]

Orig anon here.

Except that student went through an awful lot to get his medical and I'm not sure getting it replaced would be that easy...

And last I heard, CFI was still unwilling to backdate. Waiting for news from friend/student.

 

[BillG]

Ron posted a link above for replacing the certificate - cost is 2 bucks. No big deal. The CFI wouldn't be backdating it - he'd just be dating it. I don't get it - what's the CFI's problem...?

 

[MSmith]

Agreed. Sounds like the student has a bigger CFI problem than just this one mistake.

 

[Unregistered]

The student pilot in question here...

After a conversation with said instructor a stroke or two of the pen was used to correct the obviously incorrect date that was written at the time of the first solo.

 

[gismo]

Orig anon here.

Except that student went through an awful lot to get his medical and I'm not sure getting it replaced would be that easy...

And last I heard, CFI was still unwilling to backdate. Waiting for news from friend/student.

The student won't need to take another medical exam or anything, it's just a little processing to get a replacement medical/student pilot certificate.

JOOC what does the CFI involved actually think he's trying to do here?

 

[Greebo]

Evidently fix the problem cause the student replied that all's well now, I guess.

 

[Len Lanetti]

and that certificate is accidentally destroyed...

FWIW...works for me.

Also, a good example of why everyone should do a few years in the military....you learn so much really useful stuff.

Len

 

[bbchien]

As a former LT. this mode of making things right would not have escaped me. Just like Greg Kainz' byline.....

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

Pilot certificates have become lost; student pilot certificates, too. I'm sure that more than one has fallen into a disastrous end. IOW, a paper shredder--accidentally, of course. Lost student pilot certificates can be replaced by the FSDO.

Certainly I would never suggest that anyone commit deliberate fraud; merely noting what a dangerous world this can be for a poor, hapless pilot certificate.




FSDOs do provide duplicate student pilot certificates, so, yes, I could see where calling the FSDO might be appropriate under the proper circumstances. Once replaced, the CFI would recreate the appropriate endorsements, which, I'm sure, the original certificate contained.



The CFI could be in for a world of hurt. Why commit Hari Kari over a simple lost/destroyed student pilot certificate?

A DE can issue a student pilot cert.
you can also get your med faxed to you upon request.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Orig anon here.

Except that student went through an awful lot to get his medical and I'm not sure getting it replaced would be that easy...

So long as the original is still valid your friend is asking for a duplicate of the existing, not a new issue. No problem.

And last I heard, CFI was still unwilling to backdate. Waiting for news from friend/student.

Some people are just too stupid to live.

Given that the student has 2 of 3 signatures the finger of blame points pretty solidly at the CFI. I'm just perverse enough that if I was the student, at this point I might just wander into the FSDO and say, "The morning of my x-country I met with my CFI to go over my planning. I handed him my medical and logbook, I saw the pen waving several times, and then the CFI handed back my medical folded within my closed logbook. The CFI said, "There ya are, good to go." I guess I was so exited I forgot to double check that the CFI actually did his job correctly. But when I got back from the x-country, I was marveling at the endorsements and I then noticed that the CFI forgot to make the second endorsement on my student pilot certificate. Oh dear, oh me. What should I do now?"

Sometimes the CFI trash needs to be hauled to the curb.

 

[Unregistered]

The student pilot in question here...

After a conversation with said instructor a stroke or two of the pen was used to correct the obviously incorrect date that was written at the time of the first solo.

YAY! Now get ready for your checkride!!

-- Orig anon

 

[jdwatson]

I seem to remember that I was missing an endorsement on my Medical when I got to my checkride for the Private. The DE said it happens all the time. My logbook was in order, so off I went on the ride and the CFI added the endorsement when I got back.

The way I looked at it was, I would be getting a new medical soon and everything else was in my logbook so the ones on the medical seemed redundant to me.