Student Question re Victor Airways

eetrojan

eetrojan

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eetrojan
Hi all - I'm still working on my take-home paperwork and the question I'm working through asks, "What are the vertical limits of V 12? (22)"

I was given a Los Angeles sectional that has been marked up by the school to try and make sense of the questions. The sectional identifies location "(22)" as shown below (it may be an error as I have found a couple others).

I believe the correct answer is simply the standard "from 1200 feet AGL and up to but not including 18,000 feet MSL." I'm uncertain of my answer, however, because the prior question asked the exact same thing about another Victor airway (V 208), making me think there might be different limits.

(1) Any reason this answer is not correct for V 12?

(2) What does the "[80]" notation next to V 12 mean? I can't intuit it, and have looked but can't seem to find any explanation.

(3) Out of curiosity, and given how the school marked the sectional, does V 12 continues to the east of BASAL?

Thanks!

V%2012%20near%20KDAG.jpg
 
register@teamandras.com said:
(1) Any reason this answer is not correct for V 12?

(2) What does the "[80]" notation next to V 12 mean? I can't intuit it, and have looked but can't seem to find any explanation.

(3) Out of curiosity, and given how the school marked the sectional, does V 12 continues to the east of BASAL?
Click to expand...

1. I can't see any reason that your answer would be incorrect, v12 is a standard airway with standard vertical limits.

2. The [80] notation denotes the distance of the airway between the defining points for that segment; the Hector and Palmdale vortacs.

3. V12 continues East of BASAL intersection. The 22 marking by the school offers more confusion than it does clarification as it actually points to V210

See your chart legend for the above answers BTW.

Steve
 
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register@teamandras.com said:
I believe the correct answer is simply the standard "from 1200 feet AGL and up to but not including 18,000 feet MSL." I'm uncertain of my answer, however, because the prior question asked the exact same thing about another Victor airway (V 208), making me think there might be different limits.

(1) Any reason this answer is not correct for V 12?
Click to expand...
It'a correct -- see section 5.3.4 of the AIM.

(2) What does the "[80]" notation next to V 12 mean? I can't intuit it, and have looked but can't seem to find any explanation.
Click to expand...
It's a total mileage, in this case between the Palmdale and Hector VORs. Pick up any VFR chart (you have at least one, right?) and look at the legend.
(3) Out of curiosity, and given how the school marked the sectional, does V 12 continues to the east of BASAL?
Click to expand...
Oh yes. I followed it on Foreflight and it seems the eastern terminus is Pottsdown, PA.
 
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The question does NOT appear to be about victor airways. What is the bottom of Class E at location 22? That an airway is nearby is not important in this case.

Victor airways are largely irrelevant for VFR traffic. When over the minimum enroute altitude (7900 at that location along V12) at a round-number altitude, you may encounter IFR traffic. That's about it.
 
stcurtis said:
3. V12 continues East of BASAL intersection. The 22 marking by the school offers more confusion than it does clarification as it actually points to V210
Click to expand...

Airways are actually 8 nm wide (4 nm from centerline to each edge). It points to V12 as well as any other point.

I'll bet this question gets a lot of wrong answers.....
 
MAKG1 said:
The question does NOT appear to be about victor airways. What is the bottom of Class E at location 22? That an airway is nearby is not important in this case.
Click to expand...
As posted, the question is about the vertical limits of an airway, not of Class E airspace. As far as I can tell, the airway itself doesn't exist below 1200 AGL, though the airspace is controlled down to 700 AGL.

If that's incorrect, do you have a reference?
 
MAKG1 said:
The question does NOT appear to be about victor airways. What is the bottom of Class E at location 22? That an airway is nearby is not important in this case.

Victor airways are largely irrelevant for VFR traffic. When over the minimum enroute altitude (7900 at that location along V12) at a round-number altitude, you may encounter IFR traffic. That's about it.
Click to expand...

As the OP placed the question in quotes, it's presumed that it is verbatim from the test, therefore the question is about the airway.

Steve
 
MAKG1 said:
Airways are actually 8 nm wide (4 nm from centerline to each edge). It points to V12 as well as any other point.

I'll bet this question gets a lot of wrong answers.....
Click to expand...

Exactly my point, it offers more confusion than clarification, as the floor of the airway does not change based on the airspace below.

Steve
 
stcurtis said:
Exactly my point, it offers more confusion than clarification, as the floor of the airway does not change based on the airspace below.

Steve
Click to expand...

I just read AIM 5-3-4 (per azure) and it says that the floor of an airway is 1,200 AGL "or in some instances higher."

Do you know of an example where the airway floor is higher than 1200 AGL? I'd just like to see how it's notated.

Thanks!
 
stcurtis said:
3. V12 continues East of BASAL intersection. The 22 marking by the school offers more confusion than it does clarification as it actually points to V210
Click to expand...

Does the actual chart have an error? Should it say "V 12" instead of "V 210" to the east of BASAL, on the 248 radial from the Hector VOR (HEC) (the VOR is just off the right edge of my excerpt)"?
 
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register@teamandras.com said:
Does the actual chart have an error? Should it say "V 12" instead of "V 210" to the east of BASAL, on the 248 radial from the Hector VOR (HEC) (the VOR is just off the right edge of my excerpt)"?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that it's an error. I've seen other cases where VFR charts don't list all the airways belonging to a particular airway segment (but maybe those are errors too, I'm not sure). In this case, the low enroute IFR chart shows that it's both V12 and V210 between BASAL and HEC VOR.
 
stcurtis said:
Exactly my point, it offers more confusion than clarification, as the floor of the airway does not change based on the airspace below.

Steve
Click to expand...

It's my current guess that the point of this question was to teach me that even though the chart shows the CLASS E floor dropping down to 700 AGL around KDAG, the floor of the V 12 airway that passes through that area remains at 1200 AGL.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Does the actual chart have an error? Should it say "V 12" instead of "V 210" to the east of BASAL, on the 248 radial from the Hector VOR (HEC) (the VOR is just off the right edge of my excerpt)"?
Click to expand...

On the VFR chart it only depicts V210, not sure why, I thought originally it might be an error, but the IFR low chart marks it as V12/V210. Not sure why, other than space maybe:confused: that this airway is not depicted as others leading from Hector with multiple airways e.g. V8-21 V283-587 which depart HEC on the 211 radial.

Steve
 
register@teamandras.com said:
It's my current guess that the point of this question was to teach me that even though the chart shows the CLASS E floor dropping down to 700 AGL around KDAG, the floor of the V 12 airway that passes through that area remains at 1200 AGL.
Click to expand...

I believe you got the point of question. Don't over think the charts, they are really pretty intuitive, and you were correct in your initial thought, just started to second guess yourself which is then where you went sideways.

Steve
 
stcurtis said:
I believe you got the point of question. Don't over think the charts, they are really pretty intuitive, and you were correct in your initial thought, just started to second guess yourself which is then where you went sideways.

Steve
Click to expand...

I tend to go sideways more than I should. Thank you Steve, and others, for your input!
 
register@teamandras.com said:
I tend to go sideways more than I should. Thank you Steve, and others, for your input!
Click to expand...

Best two pieces of advice I ever got came from an ATP friend...

1. Never do fancy math in the cockpit.
2. Don't over think the problem.

Number one will make sense if you pursue a Commercial ticket and try to figure out pivotal altitude using your exact ground speed and the formula ground speed squared divided by 11.3. I got really sideways with the math and was given the two rules above along with a "Now that you can explain the formula to your examiner later..."

Steve
 
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