Student Question re Airport Advisory Areas

[eetrojan]

Hi - AIM 4-1-9 talks about Airport Advisory Areas where a pilot is encouraged to communicate with the FSS when arriving or departing certain non-towered fields:

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0401.html

Are there any non-towered California airports where a pilot should call some FSS because of the existence of a "Local Advisory Area" (LAA) or a "Remote Advisory Area" (RAA)?

My sense is "no" because all of California's FSS stations have been moved out of state such that none of them are on field and there are no more Airport Advisory Areas in California.

Is that right, or am I missing something?

Does the presence of a Remote Communications Outlet (RCO) matter?

 

[poadeleted20]

Remote Airport Advisory Service may come from several states away, but it is still "recommended" that you work with them. You can tell if there is AAS (either local or remote) at an airport by checking the A/FD entry (see an example from the KMIV entry):

COMM/NAV/WEATHER REMARKS: Ctc Millville Radio for airport advisory service on 123.65.

...or check the sectional -- the presence of a 123.65 frequency as the CTAF or on the FSS comm block at that airport is a clue that there's AAS at that airport. In any event, if you make the AIM-recommended calls on the published CTAF, if there's an AAS provider, they will respond whether you ask for it or not.

 

[MAKG1]

I don't think there are any left. But I also don't see where it matters. You're talking on CTAF at all nontowered airports, right?

The need for local advisories seems to be gone with the wide use of AWOS. There are still some airports that don't have AWOS, but those tend to have nothing at all at the field, let alone a local advisor.

 

[eetrojan]

Remote Airport Advisory Service may come from several states away, but it is still "recommended" that you work with them. You can tell if there is AAS (either local or remote) at an airport by checking the A/FD entry (see an example from the KMIV entry):
...or check the sectional -- the presence of a 123.65 frequency as the CTAF or on the FSS comm block at that airport is a clue that there's AAS at that airport. In any event, if you make the AIM-recommended calls on the published CTAF, if there's an AAS provider, they will respond whether you ask for it or not.

Thanks!

I think I understand.

If I was arriving at KMIV, I could “knowingly” call the FSS on 123.65, saying something like, “Millville Radio, BugSmasher 12XYZ, inbound Milville, 10 miles south, at 3,000 feet,” and then the FSS would reply and provide some sort of advisory service. (I’m not totally sure what that service is yet, but leaving that aside…)

Or, I could unknowingly self-announce on the CTAF identified on the chart below (same frequency 123.65) with something like, “Millville Traffic, BugSmasher 12XYZ, inbound, 10 miles south, at 3,000 feet, Millville,” expecting no reply, but the FSS would reply and provide the same advisory service.

Is that the gist?

 

[eetrojan]

I don't think there are any left. But I also don't see where it matters. You're talking on CTAF at all nontowered airports, right?

The need for local advisories seems to be gone with the wide use of AWOS. There are still some airports that don't have AWOS, but those tend to have nothing at all at the field, let alone a local advisor.

MAKG, Ron's example of KMIV has an ASOS and, if I do what I'm trained to do when inbound, I would listen to it before making my first call.

What would the FSS do in terms of providing me with "airport advisory service"?

 

[ja_user]

MAKG, Ron's example of KMIV has an ASOS and, if I do what I'm trained to do when inbound, I would listen to it before making my first call.

What would the FSS do in terms of providing me with "airport advisory service"?

Tell you about the other guy that claimed to be inbound to the same airport 15 seconds before you switched frequencies?

 

[eetrojan]

Tell you about the other guy that claimed to be inbound to the same airport 15 seconds before you switched frequencies?

LOL. Fair enough. Though you figure he might pipe up on his own...

For what it's worth, I just used www.chartbundle.com (cool site) to gather up the electronic AFDs for NJ (where KMIV is), and also for my home state of CA, and it looks like KMIV is the only airport in either state that has an AFD entry to contact an FSS for "airport advisory services."

Sorry if I beat this horse to death...

 

[poadeleted20]

If I was arriving at KMIV, I could “knowingly” call the FSS on 123.65, saying something like, “Millville Radio, BugSmasher 12XYZ, inbound Milville, 10 miles south, at 3,000 feet,” and then the FSS would reply and provide some sort of advisory service. (I’m not totally sure what that service is yet, but leaving that aside…)

Or, I could unknowingly self-announce on the CTAF identified on the chart below (same frequency 123.65) with something like, “Millville Traffic, BugSmasher 12XYZ, inbound, 10 miles south, at 3,000 feet, Millville,” expecting no reply, but the FSS would reply and provide the same advisory service.

Is that the gist?

Yup. If they know you're out there, you get their help whether you want it or not.

 

[poadeleted20]

MAKG, Ron's example of KMIV has an ASOS and, if I do what I'm trained to do when inbound, I would listen to it before making my first call.

At least at MIV, they'll still give you the weather whether you ask for it or not, along with NOTAMs, AIRMETs, weather advisories and their shirt size.

What would the FSS do in terms of providing me with "airport advisory service"?

Just what it says in the AIM section mentioned in the first post -- 4-1-9d.

 

[poadeleted20]

You might want to also note that Class E airspace is to the surface, which kinda gives you the heads up its Airport Advisory Area and what that means if you are VFR.

Lots of Class E to surface without AAS -- lots.

 

[eetrojan]

You might want to also note that Class E airspace is to the surface, which kinda gives you the heads up its Airport Advisory Area and what that means if you are VFR.

Most of the non-towered airports in California appear to be in Class G, but not all.

I think Ron beat me to it with his comment, but was just about to ask about Mammoth airport (KMMH) in Northern California since it's surrounded by Class E airspace that extends down to the surface, but doesn't appear to have an Airport Advisory Service like KMIV:

 

[poadeleted20]

I guess it depends on your definition of lofs. In my part of the US they are few and far between except for Class E extensions from Class D.

Put it this way -- within fuel range of my Tiger from my home 'drome, I know off the top of my head about six airports with Class E to the surface (not just extensions), but only one with AAS.

 

[eetrojan]

In Indiana, I know of none, I know of only 2 in Ohio, both AAS, and 2 in Kentucky, 1 is AAS, and that's a pretty descent size area. Compared to B, C and D, they are very few.

Hi Dean V - I'm not sure how many airports there are with Class E to the surface (Edit, there are about 136), but for what it's worth, by searching through ALL of the AFDs for the phrase "airport advisory service on," it appears that there are only seventeen airports in the entire US that have AAS. Am I missing any?

 

[eetrojan]

Edit post to zero AAS in Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky anymore. Privatization at work. On your list PIE is only AAS when twr is closed. Less than an average of 3 surface Class E per state isn't a lot

Here's a revised version to emphasize that. I'm still curious if the list is complete since it's so small:

I agree that 136 airports with a Class E surface is not a lot, an average of less than 3 per state as you note, but reasonable folks (like you and Ron) can disagree on whether or not 136 is a lot compared to 7 (or 17). Thanks for your thoughts! I appreciate it.

 

[eetrojan]

Only 1 listed in AK has me wondering?

Good point. I'll double check later.

 

[eetrojan]

There are like 3 parent FSS and 14 satelite FSS in AK. I am not seeing any AAS other than the 1 you list.

OK, I just had a couple of beers, so be advised. Looking at the charts, I found a non-towered airport in the northern most part of Alaska named Barrow (KBRW or whatever PABR means).

As shown below, its AFD entry does not include the same communication remarks that I searched for earlier, namely "Ctc _____ Radio for airport advisory service on ____," but based on the heavy line communication box that is on the chart (and the related legend about what that means), it appears to really, truly have an on-field FSS such that local airport advisory (LAA) services are inherent.

Thus, my list is probably incomplete, but maybe only with respect to Alaska where specialists are physically present at an FSS located at that airport.

 

[eetrojan]

Found this too, which I just realized is a graphic of the 3 parent FSS and 14 satelite FSS you mentioned:

 

[MAKG1]

I guess it depends on your definition of lofs. In my part of the US they are few and far between except for Class E extensions from Class D.

It's quite common for Class D with a part time tower to revert to Class E when the tower is closed. Not that I'd expect any of these to have an open FSS.

 

[bobmrg]

It's a side issue, but the FAA has been asked to drop all written test questions relating to an FSS on the field. There are only three airports in the US that have FSS on the field...I think that all three are in Alaska, but I'm not at all sure.

One thing for sure...no matter which FSS you contact, chances are that they don't have a clue as to local traffic at the airport you are inquiring about.

Bob Gardner

 

[EdFred]

Edit post to zero AAS in Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky anymore. Privatization at work. On your list PIE is only AAS when twr is closed. 136 Class E airports / 19,500 airports (<.7%) and less than an average of 3 surface Class E per state isn't a lot

Michigan has 9 of the Class E airports. I would say lots of Class E airports don't have AAS. I wouldn't say lots of airports are Class E airports.