Student Pilots in IMC

The one problem I see, though, is that it could discourage people from posting anything but the most sanitized versions of their experiences.

That is what my posts are rapidly becoming. The people who have blogs or podcasts of their lessons amaze me. I can't believe that they would do that given the kinds of responses I have heard from people on this forum to the best of experiences. I applaud them for doing so, and really can't believe that they manage to do it without getting chastised. Certain people just must not listen to them.

The point is not don't criticize or question me (or anyone else), it's to choose your words better when you do.
 
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I disagree. While warning the OP privately is fine and a decision you can make for yourself, I think it's valuable to have open discussions about controversial subjects especially when there are grey areas. That way people can read and decide for themselves what they think is right. I've learned a lot in these forums from reading other people's interchanges. The one problem I see, though, is that it could discourage people from posting anything but the most sanitized versions of their experiences.

Absolutely -- and in these particular cases (and most particularly mine -- which started this thread) I'm not 100% convinced there is a right answer -- or that it was even a grey area to begin with!

But out of respect for contrary opinions I pulled my post.

I have the AOPA legal plan and plan on calling tomorrow for clarification...

Stay tuned...
 
Hence, an opportunity to learn, for all of us. Thank you in advance for reporting what you find.

---

Dave had the right idea, above.
 
I'm going to hack up Mark's post to pick things he said that I was trying to, I hope I don't change the meaning of any of it.
The hack leaves a fair summary of what I think the issue is.

The folks who frequent the forums tend to pick up a lot of knowledge about things that the average pilot doesn't, especially in this area. A good related example is the "common purpose" rule that 61.113(c) sharing is subject to.

Most of us here can remember when, if someone mentioned it, the responses were along the lines of. "oh yeah? who says? show me the FAR where it says that." Despite the importance of the rule for private pilots and the fact that it's been around for decades, it hasn't been taught that much in the past. I was at one of the AOPA regulation seminars last year and you could hear the collective gasp when I raised it - it generated more post-presentations questions than any of the other subjects.
 
Absolutely -- and in these particular cases (and most particularly mine -- which started this thread) I'm not 100% convinced there is a right answer -- or that it was even a grey area to begin with!
Dan, FWIW (not much apparently), nothing I said was meant to apply to your scenario. With it gone, I can't go back to check, but, based on what I recall of it, I didn't see any problem, even if you =did= log it as an instructional flight and charged for it.
 
Dan, FWIW (not much apparently), nothing I said was meant to apply to your scenario. With it gone, I can't go back to check, but, based on what I recall of it, I didn't see any problem, even if you =did= log it as an instructional flight and charged for it.

I think I'd be pushing the envelope if I logged it as Dual Given and charged for the time.

By not charging and not logging the only common purpose was to return home.
 
Dan might tbe okay, but the attention that is called to onself when an instructor takes someone who IS his student someplace which isn't an instructional flight just isn't worth it. The definition of compensation per Ms. Brown (FAA) is just too fuzzy to even risk it.

Yes, we do take students to their Maintenence FBO and faciltate their learning by insuring that they have an airworthy mount. But I'd never call attention to it. Sigh.
 
Dan might tbe okay, but the attention that is called to onself when an instructor takes someone who IS his student someplace which isn't an instructional flight just isn't worth it. The definition of compensation per Ms. Brown (FAA) is just too fuzzy to even risk it.

Yes, we do take students to their Maintenence FBO and faciltate their learning by insuring that they have an airworthy mount. But I'd never call attention to it. Sigh.

Sadly, this entire discussion makes me wonder about so many grey area (hypothetical) cases:
  • A student-owner needs maintenance on the a/c and asks the CFI to fly along
  • A student who wants to take up his wife to see if she will enjoy flying before buying an airplane
  • A new IR pilot wants a CFI to come along in his first foray into IMC
  • The newly minted PP who wants to take all his freinds for a ride and does 10 short hops in one day (and doesn't ask for reimbursement)
 
Sadly, this entire discussion makes me wonder about so many grey area (hypothetical) cases:
  • A student-owner needs maintenance on the a/c and asks the CFI to fly along
  • A student who wants to take up his wife to see if she will enjoy flying before buying an airplane
  • A new IR pilot wants a CFI to come along in his first foray into IMC
  • The newly minted PP who wants to take all his freinds for a ride and does 10 short hops in one day (and doesn't ask for reimbursement)
I think you can go overboard with the concerns. The primary rule I think the FAA uses in these cases is the "quacks like a duck" principle, and the test I use for myself is the "How would you explain it to the FAA after the incident?" Neither requires an in depth legal analysis, just a little sense.

My problem with the IFR cross country for a 1-hour student to pick up someone is that I just don't see the instructional purpose for the trip. It "quacks" like a paid flight to pick up a passenger. I could certainly be way off base, but I don't see the FAA buying, "Well, I really thought that this new student who can barely hold altitude or heading visually or communicate with ATC would learn a lot from an IFR flight that is heavy on flight solely by reference to instruments, using the advanced equipment in the airplane, intercepting and tracking navaids and constant communication with ATC."

Make the "student" in the IFR cross country scenario to pick up someone the new IR pilot in your third scenario - "I want to pick up someone and it's IMC. I'm a little nervous about it so I'd like an instructor with me" - and I barely see a problem at all. Make it somewhere between those two extremes, and we will definitely get into gray territory where a small change in the facts could make a big difference in the answer.

In fact, without more details, the only one of the 4 scenarios you posted I'm not comfortable with on the short set of facts is the first one. Is the student a student pilot? If so, no problem. If the student is a private pilot, is the CFI there purely as a friend/passenger or is there some reason the pilot wants a CFI there? Going a step further, my flight with a friend does not become an instructional flight just because I'm a CFI, even if I have given my friend instruction other times and even if I can't keep my big mouth shut and end up doing a bit of incidental instruction during our flights together.

Your second scenario is a really good one. Some significant others are hesitant about going up with a new pilot and a CFI's presence the first time can make a difference. "My husband is terrified of flying. He doesn't want a lesson himself, but I think it would really help to have an instructor on board the first time I take him up" is, to me, anyway, a completely legitimate instructional purpose. In fact, although not necessarily in the purchase context, I generally recommend to my students that they bring a significant other with them during a lesson; I even ask who else in the family wants to come along on a discovery flight.

Subjective? Well sorta. I think what we're talking about is the measurement of subjective intent by a quasi-objective reasonableness standard. No, it's not comfortable. Everyone would like a nice black and white answer where you look at very simple things (like whether or not signed a logbook) and that would be the end of the story. The area between private and commercial privileges and Part 91 and 135 ops just isn't that way.

I'm sure Bruce remembers when FAA Legal said that compassion flights like Angel Flight and Lifeline Pilots were ops requiring commercial pilots and Part 135 operating certificates.
 
Subjective? Well sorta. I think what we're talking about is the measurement of subjective intent by a quasi-objective reasonableness standard. No, it's not comfortable. Everyone would like a nice black and white answer where you look at very simple things (like whether or not signed a logbook) and that would be the end of the story. The area between private and commercial privileges and Part 91 and 135 ops just isn't that way.

"Common sense rules" don't apply to bureaucracies.

Read April's AOPA Pilot legal column about "congested areas" then come back and explain the "common sense" in that ruling.

Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that these convoluted rules need to be so finely nuanced.

Maybe 3 in 10 pilots are flying "legally" on any given day -- from missing INOP stickers to non-compliance with a vague inspection (check the older POHs/Maintenance manuals and you'll find MANY that are not regularly complied with), to flying with old charts.

And the commercial thing is way to restrictive.

Case in point?

You are taking your sister and new brother in law to BWI so they can catch a flight for their honeymoon.

Unless you all share expenses, guess what?

You take a friend up to show him/her the joy of flight.

Unless he/she pays the share of expenses, guess what?

You're a CFI and agree to go along and give some assistance to a new pilot who is flying his family in his new Piper Matrix to FL.

Unless you pay your share expenses, guess what?
 
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"Common sense rules" don't apply to bureaucracies.

Read last month's AOPA Pilot legal column about "populated areas" then come back and explain the "common sense" in that ruling.

Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that these convoluted rules need to be so finely nuanced.

Maybe 3 in 10 pilots are flying "legally" on any given day -- from missing INOP stickers to non-compliance with a vague inspection (check the older POHs/Maintenance manuals and you'll find MANY that are not regularly complied with), to flying with old charts.

And the commercial thing is way to restrictive.

Case in point?

You are taking your sister and new brother in law to BWI so they can catch a flight for their honeymoon.

Unless you all share expenses, guess what?

You take a friend up to show him/her the joy of flight.

Unless he/she pays the share of expenses, guess what?
I don't know about the CFI one, but these two are not a problem - unless the pax pay. If the pilot pays all the expenses, and receives no compensation, how is that ANY sort of a problem??
 
Absolutely -- and in these particular cases (and most particularly mine -- which started this thread) I'm not 100% convinced there is a right answer -- or that it was even a grey area to begin with!

But out of respect for contrary opinions I pulled my post.

I have the AOPA legal plan and plan on calling tomorrow for clarification...

Stay tuned...

Any chance you and Ted could repost a sanitized version of the two original posts. I read yours but missed Ted's and apparently commented on a reply to Ted's thinking that reply was to yours. I think both are rather germane to the rest of the thread.
 
Any chance you and Ted could repost a sanitized version of the two original posts. I read yours but missed Ted's and apparently commented on a reply to Ted's thinking that reply was to yours. I think both are rather germane to the rest of the thread.

Sorry, but no chance in Hades I'm re-posting at this point!

I like my shiny blue Certificate with the Wright brothers on it...
 
Any chance you and Ted could repost a sanitized version of the two original posts. I read yours but missed Ted's and apparently commented on a reply to Ted's thinking that reply was to yours. I think both are rather germane to the rest of the thread.
Ted's scenario was along the lines of this hypothetical:

A student pilot with 1-hour of prior flight time and his instructor do an IFR cross country in IMC to pick up the student's relative and treat it as an instructional flight.

Dan's I don't recall and none of my comments apply to it.
 
These people who, haven't held a medical in decades, or never have held certificates in their self-proclaimed area of aviation expertise, or have never worked in aviation as a professional anything, or have never sent a student up for a certification ride. Some will quote chapter and verse about what this or that government body, where they have never worked by the way, will do or think. And yet they have the gall to berate and criticize anyone who disagrees with them.
Rats! Caught again!
 
Ted's scenario was along the lines of this hypothetical:

A student pilot with 1-hour of prior flight time and his instructor do an IFR cross country in IMC to pick up the student's relative and treat it as an instructional flight.

I can't verify it, but I THOUGHT Ted's scenario was 1 hour of INSTRUMENT training. As in Post PP.

I have been known to be wrong, however.:yes:
 
However, I think Ted's scenario is NOT 135 - Mark, Ron, et al I'd love to hear why you think it is. He is a student who asked for a specific type of instruction - Cross country to PIT - and the instructor obliged. Girlfriend is irrelevant. Show me a FAR that says that students must fly only simple airplanes, must learn things only in the prescribed order, must not go anywhere but the practice area, etc. - There isn't one. This is flight instruction, plain and simple.

Agreed - 100%. Fiancee is irrelevant. If she is relevant, then somebody better stop all of the instructional flights that go on every single day with wives, girlfriends, etc. in the back seat. Are those sightseeing flights? BS! Unless said fiancee was paying for the flight, there is no 135 involved. What's not instructional about an IFR flight in IMC with the student in the left seat flying as an IR student?

I've personally flown a friend from BWI to MGW to visit the folks then home to OKV in my aircraft. No money exchanged hands. Illegal....more BS...it's called being a friend.

Greg
CFII
 
Any chance you and Ted could repost a sanitized version of the two original posts. I read yours but missed Ted's and apparently commented on a reply to Ted's thinking that reply was to yours. I think both are rather germane to the rest of the thread.

My post is missing for a reason. I'm not interested in sharing my life for criticism by the PoA Anal Legal Crew over a matter that is pure, unadulterated BS speculation by people who jump to conclusions worse than my ex did.

ggroves said:
Illegal....more BS...it's called being a friend.

You got it!
 
Debating the nuances of the FARs is great sport. Kind of reminds me of the bull sessions that lasted all night in the dorm at college (and like these threads settled nothing). However, from a practical standpoint, I cannot imagine the FAA with all it's got on its plate could give a r**'s a** about somebody and his CFI picking up his girlfriend. Regardless of who paid.
 
Debating the nuances of the FARs is great sport. Kind of reminds me of the bull sessions that lasted all night in the dorm at college (and like these threads settled nothing). However, from a practical standpoint, I cannot imagine the FAA with all it's got on its plate could give a r**'s a** about somebody and his CFI picking up his girlfriend. Regardless of who paid.
Unless, of course, metal gets bent while it's happening. Generally, though, I think these sessions are good so we have an understanding of how someone (at the FAA or elsewhere) might interpret our actions, should push come to shove. You're quite right that, in most instances, they're not going to be coming after us. Probably not even if we admit it in a public forum!
 
Going back to Joe's initial comment to Ted's post and the first few responses, it appears that others saw the same thing I did - 2nd lesson for a student pilot.

And....?

I don't think the number of hours in the logbook confirms/denies the utility of an introductory flight into IMC for any VFR pilot.

It's probably more important to take a student into IMC who plans on long cross country flights, business travel use, seems a bit cavalier, or has more money than brains.

In fact, I think it would be valuable for any student to fly IMC briefly before the first long XC.

The point is not to teach them how to fly on the gauges, but to have him/her experience the disorientation and the narrowing of SA -- thereby arriving at the conclusion (in his/her own mind) that "this isn't for me" -- yet.
 
...and we obviously view the situation very differently. You see a >2 hour IFR cross country as a second lesson for a brand new pilot as "instruction." I see it as an attempt to play with the rules to squeeze a gray charter into a legal box it doesn't quite fit in (probably unintentionally).

Of course, neither of us count. What would count is if something happened and the FAA had an excuse to look at the flight.
 
...and we obviously view the situation very differently. You see a >2 hour IFR cross country as a second lesson for a brand new pilot as "instruction." I see it as an attempt to play with the rules to squeeze a gray charter into a legal box it doesn't quite fit in (probably unintentionally).

Of course, neither of us count. What would count is if something happened and the FAA had an excuse to look at the flight.

I wasn't arguing for a specific instance (The 2nd hour case), but for a principal -- that there is no hour requirement.

There should be some implied minimal training prior to XC, but so far, any syllabus is a guide -- there is no regulation about what can be taught at what time, only what must be taught before a certain event (solo, for example).

Fortunately there is still judgment required and flexibility permitted.

Perhaps the student's "2nd hour" came after flying 500 hours in the right seat in his uncle's Cessna 310?

While we must always be prepared to lay out a defense for the inevitable trial after an accident, I'm glad there's still enough flexibility to adapt/adjust to the student's interests/desires/history and mold the syllabus accordingly.
 
I wasn't arguing for a specific instance (The 2nd hour case), but for a principal -- that there is no hour requirement.

There should be some implied minimal training prior to XC, but so far, any syllabus is a guide -- there is no regulation about what can be taught at what time, only what must be taught before a certain event (solo, for example).

Fortunately there is still judgment required and flexibility permitted.
I'm a little frustrated by the reactions in this thread, which is why I tried to go to a hypothetical scenario so people didn't have to feel so defensive. One more comment then I'm done.

The issue in my mind as Mark expressed is what was the purpose of the flight. Not whether or not there is a hard and fast rule against taking private students into IMC.

I read the now deleted post as a student pilot with one hour in his logbook going on a 2.7 hr cross country mostly IMC, picking up his fiance and returning. I assumed (yes ass is the first part of that verb) that he logged it as dual received and paid for the rental of the plane and his instructor's usual fee.

If all of that were true, in my mind, the instructional value was very low but admittedly not zero, while the transportation of the passenger was well worth the money. Hence my comment that it looked like a 135 op disguised as dual.

I was hoping to discuss the pitfalls of calling flights "instruction" to get around inconvenient commercial regulations. I did not want it to appear I was hyperventilating over an incident that happened years ago that I've seen occur way too often in this business. Obviously I failed miserably.

When I was working on my private, it was common practice for the CFIs at some unnamed FBO to respond to walk-in requests with "well we can do that but only if one of you buys a logbook and sits in the left seat, the others can sit in the back". One time a woman wanted her husbands ashes spread over the ocean, sure enough, her husband got a logbook with an hour of dual in it and was charged accordingly. My only comment at the time was "I'll bet he wasn't the worst student you've had".

It is not my place or intention to enforce the rules on anyone else except my students and members of my flying club. I do feel I learn a lot from these forums by discussing the Rules, especially the ones with gray areas. I wish I could figure out a way to do that without appearing to be an anal compulsive FAR Nazi.

Promising not to post in this thread again,
Joe
 
I'm a little frustrated by the reactions in this thread, which is why I tried to go to a hypothetical scenario so people didn't have to feel so defensive. One more comment then I'm done.

The issue in my mind as Mark expressed is what was the purpose of the flight. Not whether or not there is a hard and fast rule against taking private students into IMC.

I read the now deleted post as a student pilot with one hour in his logbook going on a 2.7 hr cross country mostly IMC, picking up his fiance and returning. I assumed (yes ass is the first part of that verb) that he logged it as dual received and paid for the rental of the plane and his instructor's usual fee.

If all of that were true, in my mind, the instructional value was very low but admittedly not zero, while the transportation of the passenger was well worth the money. Hence my comment that it looked like a 135 op disguised as dual.

Joe,

I think the lesson fro Ted (who posted that) is "Don't admit nuthin'"

I took the same advice and therefore deleted my OP.

AFAIK, there are no FAA Police prowling airports, but if we admit to something that may be questionable, the temptation may very strong for some uber-crat to go on a rampage.

So while we may politely toss hypotheticals to and fro, we all were remineded that there's a difference between hangar talk and posting on publicly accessible forums, with names, dates, etc.

The conviviality here is appreciated, but it sometimes leads to a false sense of inside chat.

It's not.
 
* I went into IMC with less than 10 hours.

I don't see a problem. IFR to VFR on top and an approach through the marine layer so we can do airwork appropriate to stage of training, or Tony's example of getting block altitudes and vectors to do private training on flight with reference to instruments (I wish we could do that here) seems fine to me.

I also did this. I had less than 20 hrs (still pre-solo) and we departed while VFR to do some airwork in the practice area. The field went IFR when it was time to go back, so my CFI called up and got a pop-up IFR clearance back to SGR. He turned it into an exercise in how disorienting actual IFR can be, and how I should look at the AI prior to entering a cloud. I also flew my first (and thus far, only) ILS approach and handled the radios throughout all of the IFR stuff. My instructor's comment after I did a perfect read-back of the always-lengthy ILS approach clearance was, "You are so ready to go for your IR after you finish the PPL." Two lessons later, we filed IFR to go VFR on top so we could practice some airwork (and ironically, hood work) and the right side PTT button wasn't working right. So, I called and got the clearance and read it back perfectly. He reaffirmed his previous comment. I told him that I blamed the 150+ hrs I've spent on VATSIM.

The people who have blogs or podcasts of their lessons amaze me. I can't believe that they would do that given the kinds of responses I have heard from people on this forum to the best of experiences. I applaud them for doing so, and really can't believe that they manage to do it without getting chastised. Certain people just must not listen to them.

They're not immune from this either. Go back and listen to Will Hawkins' "The Pilot's Flight Podlog" episodes 4 and 5. In #4, I was his guest and he told me of a flight where he and his wife had to get to Los Angeles for something with her grandfather, so he called up Jason Miller, who's wife also has family in LA, and the four of them loaded up in "Diamond Star Niner-Eight-Niner-Mike-Alpha... a D-A-Four-Zero Slant Golf" and flew to LA. Will got a whole slew of mail after that episode with the implications of 91 vs. 135 for that flight. In #5, he had to clarify that they shared expenses and had a common purpose for the flight - he and his wife went to see his wife's family and Jason and his wife went to see his wife's family. It was not logged as dual given, and Jason acted as PIC for that whole thing.

  • The newly minted PP who wants to take all his freinds for a ride and does 10 short hops in one day (and doesn't ask for reimbursement)

If none of his friends paid a dime for it, how is this an issue at all? This was the case with my thread about Flying in Houston last weekend - I took a gentleman who I had just met for a sight-seeing flight out of Hobby on Saturday, and then I took my girlfriend's whole family on different hops for sight-seeing on Sunday. I paid for all of the flying in full, and received nothing in return (well, maybe some brownie points from the out-laws (not in-laws yet) and the satisfaction of making someones day on Saturday, but I doubt even the FAA considers that to be compensation), so to my knowledge I didn't break any regulations as a Private Pilot... right?

Another time, I took two of my friends (a husband and wife) sight-seeing and for a $100 hamburger. We all paid for our own lunches and when we got back, the bill from the FBO was $220.00. They offered to split with me and I allowed them to pay $100 of it, so I paid $120. I'm still perfectly within legal limits because we had commonality of purpose - I wanted to go sight-seeing and get a $100 hamburger, so did they - and they paid far less than their pro rata share of the direct expenses - which for the two of them would have amounted to about $145. Am I correct in this sense or is this cause for concern as well?

It's probably more important to take a student into IMC who plans on long cross country flights, business travel use, seems a bit cavalier, or has more money than brains.

In fact, I think it would be valuable for any student to fly IMC briefly before the first long XC.

The point is not to teach them how to fly on the gauges, but to have him/her experience the disorientation and the narrowing of SA -- thereby arriving at the conclusion (in his/her own mind) that "this isn't for me" -- yet.

I completely agree with this. I also think that it's a good idea for non-IR pilots to fly in actual with IR pilots (even though the time can't be logged) because it is good experience. I've done this a couple of times with my mentor, who has his IR.
 
As both a student, then later as a PPASEL, I have logged actual IMC time--both events with a CFII in the right seat. I'm not too concerned that Marion Jr. will come after me. I'm more concerned with people who earn their IRs and have never seen a cloud, much less been inside one...:confused:

Much ado about nothing, sez I...:D
 
I don't think "who paid" is an issue, unless, of course, it was the CFI who paid for the flight. Someone paid to pick up a passenger at a remote location and take her home. Take Ted out of the airplane and would you agree that we have a clear 135?

Depends who provided the airplane. :D

But start adding things to it from Ted's scenario - a 1 hour student, IMC, a cross country that most likely would not have been flown if it wasn't to pick up a passenger, and I think the CFI in question would have a heck of a time convincing the FAA that is was a bona fide instructional flight.

Well, if the student asked for it... ??? It's an excellent demonstration of the utility of GA. If I were a CFI, I wouldn't go around making up these scenarios, especially not as a low-time CFI (could be construed to be making time-building opportunities), but if a student comes to me and asks to do this, I don't think I have a basis to deny them the opportunity.

Sometimes, you need a good excuse (like the pax) to make a flight like this - But that's pretty much like how I'm using the family reunion this summer as an excuse to make a 1400nm cross country. If I took a CFI and my brother, would that be 135?

Maybe you would feel comfortable with the strength of an explanation that taking a 1-hr student on an IMC cross country in a not-simple airplane to pick up a passenger was =really= about instruction, but I wouldn't.

I dunno - I must be different. This reminds me a lot about the thread about Matt's first IMC flight. It was his first time in type (heck, I think it was his first flight in a nosewheel aircraft!), first actual IMC, first high-performance, first complex, and we even ended up picking up his first ice. I sat in the back seat for that flight (had we not picked up the ice, the plan was to land at FOD and switch seats and I'd fly back). It's something Matt asked to do, and it was a very valuable, if somewhat overwhelming, learning experience.

So, yes... If I were Ted's CFI, I would have made the flight in a heartbeat.
 
AFAIK, there are no FAA Police prowling airports, but if we admit to something that may be questionable, the temptation may very strong for some uber-crat to go on a rampage.
The FAA isn't the biggest problem for gray charter. The general sense is that it's the Part 135 operators who took the time and paid the bucks to meet the FAA's requirements for carrying passengers for hire who tend to be the ones who report these sorts of things.

The one-shot deal is probably no big deal to anyone. Make it a pattern and...
 
I wish I could figure out a way to do that without appearing to be an anal compulsive FAR Nazi.

Joe, I think you're safe on that count. I've never seen a Nazi with a pony tail!

As to the usefulness vs offensiveness/annoyance of this thread, I have to say that I think the comment that the latter is more about the tone of the posts than the content is only partially correct. Nothing here contained any intentional personal attacks, flames, etc yet it's clear that some of the responses were taken personally. IMO the "blame" for that should be shared by the offender and offendee. I can see why a pilot might be offended if they related a story only to be told that an action in that story was "illegal" or otherwise abnormal. OTOH, I think that bit of "information" was delivered with the intent to educate the story teller and/or anyone else reading the thread about the potential for enforcement against a pilot who happens to get caught in the same circumstance. Sure the delivery of that "information" could have been more sensitive but IMHO the lack of any intent to degrade is a strong mitigating factor.

So I think some of us need to try an be a bit more sensitive when delivering a criticism and some a bit less when receiving one.
 
The FAA isn't the biggest problem for gray charter. The general sense is that it's the Part 135 operators who took the time and paid the bucks to meet the FAA's requirements for carrying passengers for hire who tend to be the ones who report these sorts of things.

The one-shot deal is probably no big deal to anyone. Make it a pattern and...

Good point, but the airports we fly from have no 135 ops...
 
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