Student pilot hazing aka nav log

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by ahmad, Oct 20, 2022.

  1. ahmad

    ahmad Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    Messages:
    89

    Display name:
    Flyhigh
    So I am doing my cross country flight tomorrow. I have to fill out the two page nav log, weather log, W&B worksheet etc. I dont mind doing this for my training purposes but is it really necessary to fill out all those papers before every flight with what we have at our disposal with garmin, foreflight, etc?

    How many do actually do this after getting their PPL?
     
  2. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    11,875
    Location:
    FL

    Display name:
    Salty
    It’s important to understand what foreflight and gpilot are doing, and why. The only way to demonstrate your understanding of that is to fill out the paperwork. I think the only ones that do this for recreational flying after their cert just enjoy doing it.

    I think it’s obvious, but I’ll add in case. You still need to do all those things, but you can use tools like foreflight to make it quicker.
     
  3. brcase

    brcase Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    2,490
    Location:
    Boise, Idaho

    Display name:
    Brian
    How else are you going to demonstrate you understand and can use the following information. Wind correction angle, surface winds, winds aloft, head wind component, cross wind component, magnetic heading, true heading,compass deviation, indicated airspeed, calibrated airspeed, true airspeed, ground speed, estimated time of arrival, actual time of arrival, gallons per hour, check points, climb segments, descent segments.

    a nav log is just an organized way to show you understand all these topics. If you try showing off your knowledge of all these topics with an EFB there is a good chance you will find out the EFB is either doing it wrong or not calculating these things the way these things are normally taught. Plus the EFB doesn't force you to look at all these topics in an organized manner.
     
  4. dfw11411

    dfw11411 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2019
    Messages:
    92

    Display name:
    dfw11411
    Plus doing this manually eliminates any possibility you'll complain about the annual subscription costs for the EFB.

    And, no, once I got my PPL I ceased doing manual planning.
     
    Tom Wells, murphey, Kitch and 5 others like this.
  5. Domenick

    Domenick Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2019
    Messages:
    1,242

    Display name:
    Domenick
    For any significant cross-country flight, that is, flight to unfamiliar locale, I fill out a DIY Nav Planning sheet. It takes care of the math, but you have to determine course, altitude, waypoints, weight distribution, etc.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/im8o75s3gls1dc8/000.NavLog.TC.TH.2175N.calc.v2.7.xlsx?dl=1
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/gmm9tf1snn2xdge/000.NavLog.TC.TH.2175N.calc.v2.7.Help.txt?dl=1

    I also use a basic, non-aviation nav app on my iPad. Basically, it does GPS driven moving FAA chart, plus waypoints, etc. The iPad sits on one knee, the paper NavLog on the other.
    https://memory-map.com/
     
    AR797 likes this.
  6. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    13,454
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Just to be clear, the reason it’s not generally necessary to fill out a nav log is NOT because you have Garmin, Foreflight, etc. it’s because you understand what those apps are and are not giving you. Pilots have been not filling out nav logs since long before any of those electronic gizzies existed. But we’re supposed to understand the process so that when we don’t do nav logs, it’s based on competence rather than incompetence.
     
  7. Lndwarrior

    Lndwarrior Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Messages:
    869

    Display name:
    Gary
    No one.
     
  8. mandm

    mandm Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    Messages:
    1,008
    Location:
    Chicago

    Display name:
    Michael
    It’s important to know how to do it. Understand weather, fuel consumption, winds, obstacle clearances, etc.
     
    Tantalum likes this.
  9. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    14,261
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Brb. Ok, I'm back. I just made one.:goofy:
     
    TCABM and MauleSkinner like this.
  10. guest user

    guest user Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2021
    Messages:
    380

    Display name:
    just passing through
    I tend to print out hard copies of things before my flights. Airport charts, highlighting frequencies, etc.
    The only real use case I could see is in case of a GPS outage, you can actually refer to the navlog for distances / time / direction.
     
  11. Kenny Taylor

    Kenny Taylor Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2021
    Messages:
    121
    Location:
    Bakersfield, CA

    Display name:
    Kenny Taylor
    I'm around 120 hours and have done it for every cross-country since earning the PPL. It's a good exercise and makes you think through what you're doing. How close are you on fuel endurance? What winds/runway should you expect at the destination? Terrain clearance and route in/out of the airports. Is today's rental plane really the same weight as the other rental?

    Having the headings/distances/times and VOR frequencies listed would be a life saver if your EFB died.
     
    Steve Costello likes this.
  12. Jeff Oslick

    Jeff Oslick En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Messages:
    4,909
    Location:
    Fullerton, CA

    Display name:
    Jeff Oslick
    I'm a bit concerned about your "hazing" comment. I really hope that was joking, otherwise I suggest you have a sit-down with your instructor to have a meeting of minds on your training regime.

    I use a flight planning tool to generate a nav log for any cross country that isn't over a route I know very well, and for any route of any significant length. I print out that nav log and bring the printed copy with me on a kneeboard. I have key radio frequencies written down on that nav log. Why? Because tablets fail (batteries die, overheat, lock-up at inconvenient times), even in-panel GPS units get interference and lose reliable signal. These aren't rare problems. I've had each of these happen multiple times. It will inevitably happen when you're in a high-workload environment. Maybe you can have your backup with an app running on your phone, that can be ok, to a point, too, but *always* have a backup for the information you may need at the ready.

    Being fully prepared for foreseeable problems doesn't stop after you pass your checkride.
     
  13. SkyChaser

    SkyChaser Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2020
    Messages:
    1,461

    Display name:
    SkyChaser
    I did it voluntarily for every xc flight in training, and will continue to do so when I start flying xc again. I like paper because it helps me think through the flight. It's not hazing, it's learning the ins and outs of how to plan and what to check.
     
  14. FlyBoyAndy

    FlyBoyAndy Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Messages:
    183
    Location:
    Syracuse, NY

    Display name:
    FlyBoyAndy
    What would happen if the OP was asked to pull out an E6b to make calculations in flight? It really is good to know. Do the calculations and then verify it from your EFB.
     
  15. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    5,879

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    Dismissing certain methodologies of flight training by the use of the moniker 'hazing' says a lot more about the student's attitude and potential sense of entitlement, than it does about the instructional topic in question.

    It is quite demonstrable that as we get older, we tend to become less psychologically trainable, as we deem being "instructed to" as condescending hoop-jumping, or not deferent enough to our perceived "stage of life accomplishment". Doubly so when the instructor is younger.

    It's a real pitfall within educational/training circles, one I've even witnessed in the military among second/third assignment aviators. Huge egos and sense of entitlement, which makes for problematic/pugilistic exchanges and detracts from the mission at hand. A problem I never had with my 2LT students in UPT; latter training environment I miss very much and rather spend my remaining days back in, precisely for this very reason.
     
    Domenick, Daleandee, TCABM and 2 others like this.
  16. guest user

    guest user Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2021
    Messages:
    380

    Display name:
    just passing through
    i was thinking it showed more of a lack of imagination on the part of the instructor if a navlog was the best hazing they could come up with.
     
    Kenny Taylor, Tom Wells and Salty like this.
  17. TommyG

    TommyG Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,994

    Display name:
    Tom
    When I haze my students I tell the to go to the MX hangar and get a bucket of steam. But for PPL they learn and do the Nav log manually.
     
    Steve Costello likes this.
  18. FancyG

    FancyG Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2020
    Messages:
    241

    Display name:
    FancyG
    I use the Foreflight FPL. Great tool for VFR flying.

    Not so worried about frequencies as the Dynon Skyview can preload airport frequencies into com 1.

    I also found the paper navlogs tedious. Can see the value from the days before glass or smartphones, but they seem masochistic as a primary way to navigate now.
     
  19. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    15,514
    Location:
    mass fla

    Display name:
    ron keating
    I very seldom do a nav log. I let foreflight do the calculations . Just have to Romberg to keep the I pad charged,for long cross countries.
     
  20. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    13,454
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Back in the days before glass or smartphones, paper nav logs were generally considered training tools that we’re used to teach and allow students to demonstrate how to plan a flight. Once basic planning and navigation skills had been acquired, they could be applied without needing a paper nav log. Hmmm. Kinda like now.

    Also, before glass or smartphones, pilots got lazy and used electronic technology without understanding the underlying principals of navigation because they considered them too much work. Hmmm. Kinda like now.

    Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, I guess. Same with checkrides on occasion.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2022
    FancyG likes this.
  21. Justin M

    Justin M Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2016
    Messages:
    640

    Display name:
    JM
    I make one for every cross country (ppl 400 hours). I print a spreadsheet (filled with vlookups to pull data from a spreadsheet of details like Morse codes for vors, or tower frequencies at my destination ).

    It’s my method to dot my iiiis when planning my flight, especially fuel consumption and head wind and cross wind calculations. I make sure I have vor frequencies, destination details, distance between way points.

    In flight I track time, distance, ground speed and tach time at every way point. It’s my scratch pad for departure clearance, flight following frequencies, squawk codes and a record for my log book when I’m back home.

    I also plug in my plan into ForeFlight on the iPad .
     
  22. guest user

    guest user Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2021
    Messages:
    380

    Display name:
    just passing through
    Here I am writing them out long hand (during my planning stage) on my kneeboard notepad, never even thought to put the information in spreadsheet to print out.

    I'm going to use this on my next XC trip.
     
  23. ateamer

    ateamer Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,040
    Location:
    Port St. Lucie, FL

    Display name:
    ateamer
    A nav log is hazing? OP, have your CFI contact us and we’ll give him some ideas for much better hazing.
     
  24. francisco collazos

    francisco collazos Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2021
    Messages:
    133

    Display name:
    ciscovet
    That happened to a student on their checkride. The DPE asked the to use the VOR to navigate and they couldn't. He ended up failing the student.
     
  25. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    13,454
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    If I really wanted to, I could probably bust over 90% of applicants for misuse of an app.
     
    FancyG likes this.
  26. FancyG

    FancyG Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2020
    Messages:
    241

    Display name:
    FancyG
    Wow!

    Might I ask, an Engineer?
     
    Crashnburn, Initial Fix and Jo Gowing like this.
  27. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    13,339
    Location:
    New England

    Display name:
    PaulS
    So I am doing my cross country flight tomorrow. I have to fill out the two page nav log, weather log, W&B worksheet etc. I dont mind doing this for my training purposes but is it really necessary to fill out all those papers before every flight with what we have at our disposal with garmin, foreflight, etc?

    If your instructor requires it, then yes, it's necessary. Also your instructor is familiar with the DPE you will be using. So odds are, the dpe may ask you to do one. Imagine your outrage if you had never done one before and fail?

    How many do actually do this after getting their PPL?

    I'm sure there are some out there who do this, but I don't.
     
  28. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    15,797
    Location:
    high desert NM

    Display name:
    Billy
    When I was a commercial student we had to fill out a nav log in 30 minutes, including weather gathering.

    It is not hazing, and really hoping you said that as a joke. it is part of the curriculum.

    Now, myself I haven't filled out a nav log since I was an instructor, but that doesn't mean I don't do flight planning.
     
  29. pmanton

    pmanton En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    3,564
    Location:
    Indian Hills Airpark Salome, AZ

    Display name:
    N1431A
    Maybe the OP should find a less onerous avocation.
     
  30. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    13,454
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    For a flight near max range for the airplane, as I recall. My checkride XC plan was Des Moines to Dallas.
     
    Zeldman likes this.
  31. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    1,499
    Location:
    Mercer Island, WA

    Display name:
    MIFlyer
    I think it's important to build the discipline. You should always be aware of your W&B. If it's always you and one buddy going to lunch in the same plane, maybe not, but only if you have the presence of mind to redo W&B and takeoff performance from all the places you're going on a trip. Anytime I'm giong to a new strip, I recalculate T/O at that temp/pressure/weight.
     
  32. sarangan

    sarangan Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    1,711

    Display name:
    Andrew, CFI-I
    The purpose of the log is to demonstrate that you understand the process, not because you have to do it this way on every flight. You can omit certain things, but only after you have convinced your instructor and the examiner that you know the stuff.

    Calling it hazing displays a certain level of anti-authority, which is a hazardous attitude in aviation.
     
    MikeNY likes this.
  33. Aaron Leiby

    Aaron Leiby Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2022
    Messages:
    10

    Display name:
    Aaron Leiby
    Do you apply this correction during flight planning, or when adjusting the heading indicator against the compass reading?

    I originally included this in the flight plan, but while training you often don’t know which plane you’ll end up flying, or don’t have ready access to the deviation card during planning, so have since switched to leaving it out of the planning phase and instead taking it into account when correcting the heading indicator during flight.
     
  34. Jo Gowing

    Jo Gowing Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2022
    Messages:
    27

    Display name:
    Jo Lin
    My school doesn't require nav logs, and they don't even teach them, but I wish they did. I've found some YouTubers that cover them pretty well. I find that the paper doesn't glare in the cockpit like my iPad screen. Also, just the act of writing things down helps me learn the route and specifics better. I'm trying to put my long XC together tonight, but I won't be able to fly it tomorrow -- too windy -- so I can't really fill it out completely. But I'll have more of it ready when I finally can fly.
     
    murphey likes this.
  35. IK04

    IK04 En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,208
    Location:
    Copperas Cove, Texas

    Display name:
    LNXGUY
    My first instructor was a great pilot, but a miserable instructor. He was a member of the US Precision Flight Team and insisted on plus or minus one minute at every checkpoint (waypoint, for you children of the magenta line).

    It took me forever to get my Private Certificate, but man, I was good at doing all that paperwork planning and can still do it in my sleep, or from memory.

    Those skills served me well later on in my flying career...
     
  36. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    11,875
    Location:
    FL

    Display name:
    Salty
    I’m curious how you will fulfill PA.VI.A.K5 of the ACS, having never done a nav log. If there are DPEs out there allowing that to be done 100% by foreflight, boy are they doing everyone a disservice. Personally, I don’t consider using a gps to calculate or navigate a route to be pilotage or dead reckoning. It’s gps navigation.
     
    Jo Gowing, IK04 and Zeldman like this.
  37. brcase

    brcase Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    2,490
    Location:
    Boise, Idaho

    Display name:
    Brian
    Oh I know examiners(in fact most of them i know) that do not require you to fill out a nav Log. But they will examine you on all the concepts. They also tell me that pilots that don’t fill out a nav log have about a 70% or higher failure rate,because they are often deficient some some of the required topics.

    If you want a challenge try back filling a nav log using foreflight numbers. Seems like this should be easy, just copy the number across. But foreflight doesn’t give you everything and makes you backwards engineer a number of columns on the Navlog. But if you can accurate do this you will easily demonstrate an above average understanding of the Navigation topics on the Navlog.

    Brian
     
    Jo Gowing likes this.
  38. ahmad

    ahmad Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    Messages:
    89

    Display name:
    Flyhigh
    Thanks for the comments and replies. To be clear I fully understand why we should do paper nav logs and calculations AND fully understand what and how they're calculated. I was just curious if it is something everyone does after getting the ppl. Sounds like some do and others don't. I will continue to do them on long x country flights no doubt. In the aircraft I have the EFD. In my flight bag I carry the iPad with foreflight, portable battery, portable radio that has com and nav capability, and of course my phone that can be used for foreflight and navigation.

    I just did my 1st cross country flight yesterday. My cfi said I was the most prepared student he has ever had. I intend on being a super competent pilot before I take anyone up there with me.
     
    Texan Pilot, Zeldman and Hang 4 like this.
  39. Pinecone

    Pinecone Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 24, 2022
    Messages:
    1,575
    Location:
    MD

    Display name:
    Pinecone
    Looking at the number of fuel exhaustion crashes, one might make a case that doing such planning and having the info to compare to what actually happens in flight might be a good thing.
     
    Darryl Snover likes this.
  40. WDD

    WDD En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    4,269
    Location:
    Atlanta / KRYY

    Display name:
    Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
    Congrats! Sounds like you've got a great attitude and commitment. FWIW, I took your "hazing" choice of words to be completely tongue in cheek.

    (To pile on to your original question, no I don't do paper and hand calculations any more, but I have no idea how I'd understand what FFlight was telling me without have done it by hand as a student several times to learn. Same with Weight and Balance, Fuel Burn, etc.)