Stuck in the center

spiderweb

Final Approach
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Ben
The main point of the IFR X-C is to demonstrate you can navigate, and transition to the approach. The approaches themselves aren't the main point, because you've been practicing them separately anyway. But now the X-C is done, and it is time to refine.

In addition to preparing for the oral's gotchas, my main concern is how to get the needle(s) stuck in the center. It seems to me that I became reasonably good at staying well within the PTS within a few lessons of training. But I find it really hard to keep those needles stuck in the center. I don't feel that I've improved much from when I became able to control those needles close to center. It is already infinitely easier to keep them within one dot. (We are assuming relatively un-bumpy conditions.)

So guys, how do you get it so that your CFII is tapping the VOR head to see if it needs the attention of an A&P? How do you keep the ADF needle stuck in place, with bracketed correction, on the final approach course?
 
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wangmyers said:
So guys, how do you get it so that your CFII is tapping the VOR head to see if it needs the attention of an A&P? How do you keep the ADF needle stuck in place, with bracketed correction, on the final approach course?
The same way one gets to Carnegie Hall.
 
Ben,

On my instrument check ride, my needle was dead center on a course to the first VOR...until it broke free and suddenly slammed to a full deflection to the left! I had to cover it up and fly the check ride with the #2 radio & CDI. Pretty unsettling at the time but good experience otherwise. I'd advise another approach to "sticking the needle".

Best,

David
 
if I'm not mistaken, When the nav radio is switched off. The needle will center nicely :)
 
Ken Ibold said:
The same way one gets to Carnegie Hall.

And I'm singing there on May 30 (along with a bunch of other people). Rutter's Requiem, conducted by the composer. Does this mean I've been practicing?
 
Ghery said:
And I'm singing there on May 30 (along with a bunch of other people). Rutter's Requiem, conducted by the composer. Does this mean I've been practicing?
Very nice. I've played there a few times with chamber group and as soloists. Weill Recital hall for those concerts--beautiful.
 
Ghery said:
And I'm singing there on May 30 (along with a bunch of other people). Rutter's Requiem, conducted by the composer. Does this mean I've been practicing?

Wow. Ghery, what choral group are you with?

My chorus is singing Rutter's Magnificat in next winter's concert, conducted by our Artistic Director. ;)
 
Re: Stuck in the center--Dr. Bruce did it!

I know that at least Dr. Bruce got 'em stuck in the center--he did recently on his ATP ride!
 
Ben. I'm sure there are probably better ways, and I am open to constructive suggestions from anyone on this. We shall see how this new board works because this post will be ripe for flames! : However...

Let's take these separately.

Localizer -- the thing here is that the closer you get to it, the harder it is to keep centered. Wind is your enemy. If there is no wind, and you can fly a heading, keeping the needle centered is easy.

You need to use the way you intercept the localizer as a guide for how to fly it once on it. If you had to work hard to push the airplane to the localizer, the wind is coming from the opposite direction you were flying. You'll need to pick a 'reference' heading that is slightly to the opposite side. (i.e. if you were flying 090 before turning to intercept and it took longer than you expected, and then once you turned (let's say left for a 360 inbound course)...and you found yourself left of course...and you ended up having to turn back a little to the right because it just didn't want to incercept...you are going to need to pick a reference heading to the right of 360. With more experience you'll get better at guessing how much.

Now, the trick is to fly that heading perfectly. The better you can fly it, the better your needle. If the needle starts to move, you don't chase it, but rather adjust your reference heading just 2 or 3 degrees (depending on how fast) and fly the new heading. Watch the needle. If you have over-corrected, don't fly the needle...pick a new heading and stick to it.

Speed is critical. You want to be comfortable above a stall (even in turbulence) and you may have been asked to 'keep your speed up' but in general, the slower you can fly it, the better you will do.

The closer you get, the more squirlly it gets. You need to refine the skills above. Again, do not chase the needle. Make smaller and smaller corrections...hold them...see if they are doing what you want to the needle.

Don't let your speed increase as you descend. Speed management is very important. If you're on a non-precision approach, you need to manage power to the best of your ability to keep speed constant. On a precision approach, you want to hold the glideslope and manage power for a constant descent. This is very important. If you dive for the needle, any error in heading will be magnified on the CDI/ course pointer.

VOR: Very similar to above (without the extreme sensitivity) , however, unless the vor is on the airport. On the airport it too will become more sensitive quickly as well.

Glideslope: the key here is to learn your power settings and configurations to learn what will produce the correct vertical speed for the correct groundspeed. Again, the wind is your enemy. With a strong headwind (or even tail wind if you are setting up for a circling approach) the best laid plans will be ruined.

But let's say that in a no wind situation you learn that 1 notch of flaps, gear up, 23" MP, at 2450 rpm will hold you level at 120kias (also groundspeed -- no wind). Further, putting the gear down will produce 600 fpm down at 120kias (maybe a tweak of power will be needed, but you get the idea). If you can go practice that in vfr conditions with the hood OFF until you find the power settings, that is very important.

Once you know how to get 120kias, 600fpm down, pretty much hands off, you'll be freed up to concentrate on the localizer needle. Now, back to the glideslope, here, you need to be very careful to fly the vsi and make sure the needle is doing what you want. If it isn't, you have two choices: pitch or power. If you use power, it will be harder because you speed is going to change over the long term. If you use pitch, it will be harder because your speed will change short term. Changing your speed just screws things up.

The key is to use both pitch and power. If you are going above the glideslope, you need to pitch down just a little...let the vsi settle...and reduce power just a little. If you are going below the glideslope...you need to hold level for just a minute until you catch it again. However, you need to anticipate and be careful that you don't fly through it and end up on top of it. So as you fly through it, pitch for the magic vsi reading...remembering that you had been descending too quickly for your groundspeed...so you will most likely need to either descend more slowly or increase power slightly.

Above all, you can not chase this needle. It is very sensitive and gets more sensitive very quickly. Also, if you chase it down it may be the last thing you ever do.

In summary, for glideslope, the 'trick' is to match the descent rate to the groundspeed. In no (or constant) wind, when you nail it, it is very cool because the rest is automatic. In changing wind you have to keep finding the sweet-spot every time it changes.

It is really easy to get so involved in this that you forget to watch your minimums. A life prolonging habit is to call out, "1,500 for 400"..."1,400 for 400"..."500 for 400". I do it out loud even if there are non-pilots in the airplane.

Also very important is to have your altimeter set correctly, and to have confidence in that fact as you are getting closer to the ground.

If you are doing this at night and there are layers, leave your landing lights off until you see the runway. All that light reflecting off the tops of the clouds makes you flatten out your approach and screws everything up.

Fly the approach all the way to the runway. What you've been doing to see the runway is working perfectly. Don't duck under, chop, and drop. While you are mostly visual after breaking out...keep the needles centered all the way to the runway.

That's my best stuff. (To all who may be critical...I welcome constructive comments.) To all who may flame...please go back to the AOPA board. :)
 
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Bob,

Pretty good. A couple of things from my bag of tricks.

For small corrections on a LOC/ILS, use the rudders. Much less likely to overshoot compared to ailerons.

Rev. Ron likes to note that you don't necessarily have to have the needle centered. You have to have the needles within tolerance.... but you want to hold them so they don't move. Use the rudders.

Likewise, using power can help maintain a stabilized approach as opposed to making big pitch changes. Get your airspeed and trim set, use power to control your VSI/glideslope.

Know your plane. On my plane, if you've got airspeed stabilized at approach speed when you get to the glideslope intercept, dropping gear will give you something pretty close to the proper slope.

No flames, just considerations. :zap!:
 
Bob, thanks for the detailed post. I do most of this, but you have given me a couple of refinements to look for, especially with winds. The calibration of groundspeeds with MP/RPM is really important, as you say. My problem is that I can get everything within one dot, but I can't get them "stuck in the center." Of course, we're speaking of normal winds. In gusty bumps, all bets are off!

RobertGerace said:
Ben. I'm sure there are probably better ways, and I am open to constructive suggestions from anyone on this. We shall see how this new board works because this post will be ripe for flames! : However...


(Snipped long, very detailed, very good post.)
 
Thanks, Bob. The reminder about Ron's post about holding the needles helped me to remember that if you're holding them there, without deviation, you are actually doing OK!

wsuffa said:
Bob,

Pretty good. A couple of things from my bag of tricks.

For small corrections on a LOC/ILS, use the rudders. Much less likely to overshoot compared to ailerons.

Rev. Ron likes to note that you don't necessarily have to have the needle centered. You have to have the needles within tolerance.... but you want to hold them so they don't move. Use the rudders.

Likewise, using power can help maintain a stabilized approach as opposed to making big pitch changes. Get your airspeed and trim set, use power to control your VSI/glideslope.

Know your plane. On my plane, if you've got airspeed stabilized at approach speed when you get to the glideslope intercept, dropping gear will give you something pretty close to the proper slope.

No flames, just considerations. :zap!:
 
Nothing to disagree with in either post. Other things to keep in mind is that a localizer course is not a laser beam. It has bends, curves, rough spots, flat spots and all sorts of little aberitions that cause you to work to hold the course. Same thing with glideslopes. I'd have to say that the smallest correction you can make in either pitch and/or power to maintain your course and clearance is always best. Knowing your airplane is best.
 
Once you have chosen your power setting and flap setting (and usually gear out)....

Choose Pitch and check position wrt g/s constantly. Pick heading, fly it faithfully and check position wrt. localizer constantly. The single biggest slop I see on students preparing for the checkride is they let pitch revert to trim stability, which is NOT enough to stay withing half scale once inside the marker. Then the phugoid chasing begins, and the heading goes to pot. It's a cascade.

Actually fly pitch. "If you aint' got pitch, you dont' have ___." :)
 
bbchien said:
Actually fly pitch. "If you aint' got pitch, you dont' have ___." :)

I like it. Although my mind wanted to rhyme the second half in there and subconsciouly added an "it" and then I picture Dave Chappelle saying it. :D
 
N2212R said:
I like it. Although my mind wanted to rhyme the second half in there and subconsciouly added an "it" and then I picture Dave Chappelle saying it. :D

You got it!
 
wsuffa said:
Bob,

For small corrections on a LOC/ILS, use the rudders. Much less likely to overshoot compared to ailerons.

Bill,

Thanks for bringing out this excellent point. I do this often.
 
And one more thing. If you think the needle may be really stuck, nothing better than to hit the nav flip flop twice, just to see the indicator move....
 
bbchien said:
And one more thing. If you think the needle may be really stuck, nothing better than to hit the nav flip flop twice, just to see the indicator move....

Unless the other freq is a LOC within range, that won't prove out your system completely. IOW there are failures that can kill the LOC needle in the center while VOR reception works fine. But this will check most of it.
 
bbchien said:
Once you have chosen your power setting and flap setting (and usually gear out)....

Choose Pitch and check position wrt g/s constantly. Pick heading, fly it faithfully and check position wrt. localizer constantly. The single biggest slop I see on students preparing for the checkride is they let pitch revert to trim stability, which is NOT enough to stay withing half scale once inside the marker. Then the phugoid chasing begins, and the heading goes to pot. It's a cascade.

Actually fly pitch. "If you aint' got pitch, you dont' have ___." :)

In my plane (and with my old eyes) I find it easier to maintain pitch by keeping an eye on the airspeed instead of just using the AI. A one degree change is tough for me to see on the AI but it will produce an airspeed change that's very noticeable.

Also WRT heading, use the heading bug on the DG if you have one. Moving to the edge of the bug is about 5 degrees which makes a good correction until you get really close. You want the center of the bug to be where the needle doesn move when you are near the center of the course, rather than on the LOC course IMO. Of course with the HSI in my plane, I get to have one pointer on the course and one on the heading and that's almost like cheating.:p Also, chances are pretty good that the wind will abate as you descend so expect to come back towards the course as you get closer when there's a strong crosswind.

Oh, one other thing: if you don't have a slaved DG or HSI, make sure you reset the heading card to the compass before starting down the chute. Having that off by 10 or 20 degrees can be very distracting, even though you can successfully fly an ILS with that much heading error.
 
bbchien said:
And one more thing. If you think the needle may be really stuck, nothing better than to hit the nav flip flop twice, just to see the indicator move....


DeJaVu, Procedure turn inbound to intercept the localizer, rap glass on CDI smartly with knuckle to unstick needle. This was a required procedure during
my instrument training.(had not had time to get the dang thing fixed) I had a sore knuckle from all the percussive maintenance, instructor got a real kick out of it as well as the DE.
Don
 
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