STOL Kits fact or fiction

Skyhawk4754

Skyhawk4754

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Willie
All

Alot has been written on STOL kits, It would be nice to know what's hype and what's for real. So here I am again as a shooting target. I'm the C172 guy with the O-300 wanting to put in a farm strip. Is the STOL going to help or not. Would be nice to hear from those who actually have or had them.

Always fun and interesting to read the replys

Thanks
Willie:goofy:
 
Willie,
Quoting my earlier post:
An ad for a retract 182 with STOL sent to me by a board member talked about the 36KT stall speed. It isn't going to make a difference in my day-to-day flying. Where it will come in would be an approach into an unimproved 6Y9 (though it's doable without the STOL), in a high altitude /mountainous situation, or in an emergency, where I want to have as little forward speed as possible to minimize passenger injuries.
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Skyhawk4754 said:
Alot has been written on STOL kits, It would be nice to know what's hype and what's for real. So here I am again as a shooting target. I'm the C172 guy with the O-300 wanting to put in a farm strip. Is the STOL going to help or not. Would be nice to hear from those who actually have or had them.
Click to expand...

I don't have any direct experience with flying one, but I'd also be interested in a few things from those who know, namely what varieties of STOL kits there are and the methods they use.

I used to think that a STOL kit was simply the addition of VG's (Vortex Generators) to the top of the wing to help keep the airflow attached to the top surface of the wing longer. However, I've now seen a STOL-equipped 172 with stall fences and drooping wingtips as well. I've also read about the Robertson kits - I'm not sure if all of them are this way, but at least some of them use drooping ailerons as at least one of the changes, effectively giving you full-span wing flaps.

So, what all's out there? VG's, stall fences, stall strips (do these do anything for STOL?), drooping ailerons, droop tips, etc...

There's some info here, but not enough to satisfy my curiosity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STOL
 
The 172 I flew in Hawaii had a Robertson STOL kit. It was a blast. The owners said they can freq fly it backward in the winds they have. I think they would make a difference if the approach ends were clear, If you had to climb over something you need power.

I had VG's on the Six and they did make a difference. @ 13,000' you just mushed along full control. I had a harder time landing though, more than likely because I continued to approach at the same speed. It was hard to get it to stay down. You definitely could feel the total control at slow speeds.

Dan
 
That R182 I mentioned has a Robertson STOL kit. But I think you knew that! :)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I don't have any direct experience with flying one, but I'd also be interested in a few things from those who know, namely what varieties of STOL kits there are and the methods they use.

I used to think that a STOL kit was simply the addition of VG's (Vortex Generators) to the top of the wing to help keep the airflow attached to the top surface of the wing longer. However, I've now seen a STOL-equipped 172 with stall fences and drooping wingtips as well. I've also read about the Robertson kits - I'm not sure if all of them are this way, but at least some of them use drooping ailerons as at least one of the changes, effectively giving you full-span wing flaps.

So, what all's out there? VG's, stall fences, stall strips (do these do anything for STOL?), drooping ailerons, droop tips, etc...





There's some info here, but not enough to satisfy my curiosity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STOL
Click to expand...

Thanks Cheesehead you write better than I. These are the questions I would like to see answeres on. Hopefully we have some people out there that can give some good responses.
 
I added VG's on my Commander a few years ago.

Definitely lowered the stall speed (it takes some effort to get a power-on stall, and under certain conditions I can get the power way up without a break). Made a huge difference on one aborted landing.

BUT - I use them as a means to increase margin as opposed to being a STOL kit. Landing, yeah, you can get it significantly slower than a clean wing. On takeoff, I seem to be more limited by engine power and cooling (turbo generates lots of heat).

For me VG=additional margin when things are tight.

YMMV.
 
wsuffa said:
I added VG's on my Commander a few years ago.

Definitely lowered the stall speed (it takes some effort to get a power-on stall, and under certain conditions I can get the power way up without a break). Made a huge difference on one aborted landing.

BUT - I use them as a means to increase margin as opposed to being a STOL kit. Landing, yeah, you can get it significantly slower than a clean wing. On takeoff, I seem to be more limited by engine power and cooling (turbo generates lots of heat).

For me VG=additional margin when things are tight.

YMMV.
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Bill

Where did you get your VG Kit? they are out there from $100-1500. I realise they will all need a 337, but wow what a difference in price.
 
Skyhawk4754 said:
Bill

Where did you get your VG Kit? they are out there from $100-1500. I realise they will all need a 337, but wow what a difference in price.
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Microaerodynamics. It was about $1500, plus install costs (not too much as I had it done at annual and the A&P had done another plane like mine previously - no learning curve).
 
My amphib already has a very high lift airfoil that stalls in the low 20s and I will probably put the micro VGs on the forward wing as well, after some initial flight testing to establish a baseline. I flew a couple nice STOL Skyhawks alot that had fences, gap seals, leading edge cuffs, climb prop, etc and considered them fairly nice, inexpensive, short field & high DA planes, although not in the Super Cub class.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
My amphib already has a very high lift airfoil that stalls in the low 20s and I will probably put the micro VGs on the forward wing as well, after some initial flight testing to establish a baseline. I flew a couple nice STOL Skyhawks alot that had fences, gap seals, leading edge cuffs, climb prop, etc and considered them fairly nice, inexpensive, short field & high DA planes, although not in the Super Cub class.
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Dave
My first love was a gcbc, then the cub, however in my mid 50's and only enough panga for 1 plane I felt I should stay away from the sports car and go with a sedan. The Horton stol I believe comes with fences tips and cuffs for around $900. I'm not convinced on the climb prop yet.
 
I have a Horton STOL on my C182. She is stable as a freaking ROCK while landing. Final at 70mph, over the fence at 60mph, all of this at 30 degrees of flaps.

However if I NEED to get down I toss in the last 10 degrees of flaps (she goes to 40 degree) and she will drop like a freaking ROCK! Stable but man it is like an express elevator coming down! :D
 
A guy at Perkiomen Valley Airport has a STOL kit on his 172 and it fly's fantastic. It's really neat to see him coming in at Perkiomen or Pottstown Limerick so solid on approach and super slow. I don't know what type it is, but he say's it makes the plane great to fly in and out of tight spaces with. He lands slower and shorter than I can with the C152, although I'm still learning,...
 
Rob Schaffer said:
A guy at Perkiomen Valley Airport has a STOL kit on his 172 and it fly's fantastic. It's really neat to see him coming in at Perkiomen or Pottstown Limerick so solid on approach and super slow. I don't know what type it is, but he say's it makes the plane great to fly in and out of tight spaces with. He lands slower and shorter than I can with the C152, although I'm still learning,...
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Rob

Don't worry about the learning curve thing ..... we all are still learning. Everytime we go up we should learn, fine tune etc......when you get older you start the relearning process.
I use to fly a lot when I was 18-27 but then the family started and I gave it up until not to long ago. My son, who is 18 solo'd this winter and is working towards his PPL. Wonder where he got the love of Flying???? Anyway he had a CFI that really doesn't connect anymore with the young people and wasn't flying until I figured out why. Well dad decided to dust off his log book(had to remember where I put it) and started all over from the start, after all it has been 25+ years since I was a PIC. We found a new CFI @ a college (SDSU) aviation program. They have 16 instructors so we sorted thru them and got a good one. Now I am a student again, which is kind of fun, but more importantly I got my son back in the plane. Lets him know that everyone is on a learning curve no matter what age or level of experience you are at.
Thanks for the reply and good luck with the lessons, remember ....learn at the pace you are comfortable with and stick at it.
 
tdager said:
I have a Horton STOL on my C182. She is stable as a freaking ROCK while landing. Final at 70mph, over the fence at 60mph, all of this at 30 degrees of flaps.
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Wow! Our non-STOL 182 likes 80 all the way down final, and she stalls at 63mph clean and 58mph with full (40 degree) flaps. I always land with full flaps.

However if I NEED to get down I toss in the last 10 degrees of flaps (she goes to 40 degree) and she will drop like a freaking ROCK! Stable but man it is like an express elevator coming down! :D
Click to expand...

That doesn't require the STOL kit. :no: :D Just ask Ed "Kent, there's no way you're gonna get down from there" Frederick. :rofl:
 
Lots of good comments here, but different mods do different things.

VG's are great on a lot of airplanes (including my Maule). What they do is add energy to the airflow over the wing to keep it attached at higher angles of attack. Higher angle of attack = lower stall speed. Doesn't necessarily mean you can lift off slower, though. Your airplane may be geometrically limited to an angle of attack approximating the stock stall speed with the main wheels on the ground. Many are. My Maule is. BUT, when I do liftoff, I can get a much more positive climb to clear the corn. VG's seem to be less effective on airplanes that have better wing/flap combinations. A 172 wouldn't see the same benefit there that my Maule does.

Horton and Robertson, on the other hand, add camber to the wing. Same angle of attack + more camber = lower stall speed. These mods should reduce your takeoff distance, because they still produce more lift at the limiting liftoff pitch. IIRC, Horton is just leading edge cuffs and stall fences, where the Robertson droops the ailerons as well.

There ya go...my 2 cents...for the bargain basement price of whatever your time is worth to read it ;)

Fly safe!

David
 
Skyhawk4754 said:
DaveI'm not convinced on the climb prop yet.
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Best way to convince yourself of that is to watch a fencepost rapidly approaching your prop ;) I've seen 2" of pitch make a BIG difference on how close a Taylorcraft got to the fence.

My Maule has a cruise prop on it...2200 rpm max on takeoff. Reduces the horsepower by probably 20% or more.

Fly safe!

David
 
MauleSkinner said:
Lots of good comments here, but different mods do different things.

VG's are great on a lot of airplanes (including my Maule). What they do is add energy to the airflow over the wing to keep it attached at higher angles of attack. Higher angle of attack = lower stall speed. Doesn't necessarily mean you can lift off slower, though. Your airplane may be geometrically limited to an angle of attack approximating the stock stall speed with the main wheels on the ground. Many are. My Maule is. BUT, when I do liftoff, I can get a much more positive climb to clear the corn. VG's seem to be less effective on airplanes that have better wing/flap combinations. A 172 wouldn't see the same benefit there that my Maule does.

Horton and Robertson, on the other hand, add camber to the wing. Same angle of attack + more camber = lower stall speed. These mods should reduce your takeoff distance, because they still produce more lift at the limiting liftoff pitch. IIRC, Horton is just leading edge cuffs and stall fences, where the Robertson droops the ailerons as well.

There ya go...my 2 cents...for the bargain basement price of whatever your time is worth to read it ;)

Fly safe!

David
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply.....good stuff. Why the cruise prop? you must have plenty of runway.
 
Skyhawk4754 said:
Thanks for your reply.....good stuff. Why the cruise prop? you must have plenty of runway.
Click to expand...
Maule, in their infinite wisdom, determined that this STOL airplane should fly fast, and so it's the only prop certificated on my s/n.

As mentioned on your other thread, I've got a 1500' strip at my uncle's. I have to be careful ;)

Fly safe!

David
 
MauleSkinner said:
Maule, in their infinite wisdom, determined that this STOL airplane should fly fast, and so it's the only prop certificated on my s/n.

As mentioned on your other thread, I've got a 1500' strip at my uncle's. I have to be careful ;)

Fly safe!

David
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I just read your other post... is that RWF Mn. ??????
 
Skyhawk4754 said:
I just read your other post... is that RWF Mn. ??????
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Yup...grew up about 3 miles from the VOR...Did my private and instrument checkrides with Ray in Marshall (he taught my Dad to fly, too ;)).

My aunt/uncle and cousin still farm out there, but I live about 30 miles downriver.

Your mention of Buffalo Ridge caught my eye...amazing how much that little bump changes the weather.

Fly safe!

David
 
MauleSkinner said:
Best way to convince yourself of that is to watch a fencepost rapidly approaching your prop ;) I've seen 2" of pitch make a BIG difference on how close a Taylorcraft got to the fence.

My Maule has a cruise prop on it...2200 rpm max on takeoff. Reduces the horsepower by probably 20% or more.

Fly safe!

David
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, I'll take a climb prop pitch for STOL any day.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Yup...grew up about 3 miles from the VOR...Did my private and instrument checkrides with Ray in Marshall (he taught my Dad to fly, too ;)).

My aunt/uncle and cousin still farm out there, but I live about 30 miles downriver.

Your mention of Buffalo Ridge caught my eye...amazing how much that little bump changes the weather.

Fly safe!

David
Click to expand...

Is that farm anywhere close to Crazy Joe Malecek's..... my son was born in the RWF hospital.

Sometime this summer I'll have to come over and check it out. I'm just sw of LB on the edge of the ridge. I think some days a guy could hang glide right off the edge of my pasture.
 
Skyhawk4754 said:
Is that farm anywhere close to Crazy Joe Malecek's..... my son was born in the RWF hospital.

Sometime this summer I'll have to come over and check it out. I'm just sw of LB on the edge of the ridge. I think some days a guy could hang glide right off the edge of my pasture.
Click to expand...

Can't remember exactly where Malacek's is...been so long since I've dealt with anybody else around there. Don't think he was too close to us, though. I was more on the Wabasso side of the world there.

Maybe sometime we could meet up in RWF, and I'll fly you out there in my Maule to check it out...it's kind of a hazardous strip, really, and there aren't many people that I'd let land on it.

I've wondered once or twice why there isn't any hang gliding or soaring activity around Buffalo ridge. Seems like it'd be a good place to play with that kind of thing.

TangoWhiskey said:
I'm sure it works, but I've always thought the STOL canard on the front of a Peterson Cessna mod looked... well, odd.
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I flew one of those a little bit...local guy bought it, and I flew it home from NC and checked him out in it. As we were horsing the airplane around in slow flight, I said, "You know, this thing's so stall resistant that if you accidentally spin it in, you probably deserve to die." If nothing else, it provided him a little stress relief from my abusive instruction. ;) But it's a heckuvan airplane. Be REALLY fun to fly the full Wren conversion.

Fly safe!

David
 
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MauleSkinner said:
Can't remember exactly where Malacek's is...been so long since I've dealt with anybody else around there. Don't think he was too close to us, though. I was more on the Wabasso side of the world there.

Maybe sometime we could meet up in RWF, and I'll fly you out there in my Maule to check it out...it's kind of a hazardous strip, really, and there aren't many people that I'd let land on it.

I've wondered once or twice why there isn't any hang gliding or soaring activity around Buffalo ridge. Seems like it'd be a good place to play with that kind of thing.



I flew one of those a little bit...local guy bought it, and I flew it home from NC and checked him out in it. As we were horsing the airplane around in slow flight, I said, "You know, this thing's so stall resistant that if you accidentally spin it in, you probably deserve to die." If nothing else, it provided him a little stress relief from my abusive instruction. ;) But it's a heckuvan airplane. Be REALLY fun to fly the full Wren conversion.

Fly safe!

David
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Do you have a pic of that plane?
 
MauleSkinner said:
I've wondered once or twice why there isn't any hang gliding or soaring activity around Buffalo ridge. Seems like it'd be a good place to play with that kind of thing.
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david,

any good places to launch nearby? good places to land?
 
Skyhawk4754 said:
Do you have a pic of that plane?
Click to expand...

don't have a picture of the specific airplane, but this is the basic airplane: http://www.howardaircraft.com/N8881N-specs.htm

tonycondon said:
david,

any good places to launch nearby? good places to land?
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AAARRRGGH!!! you would ask that, Tony! now you're gonna get me hot to fly gliders again! ;)

Tyler, MN (63Y) looks to be the closest airport, but it's on the east side of the ridge. No airports real close on the west.

Here's the area, centered on the Tyler airport:
http://skyvector.com/#35-12-3-3747-279

It should be on the Omaha sectional. You can see the ridge pretty clearly, as it's covered with windmills. I haven't looked at it from a soaring standpoint for quite a while (since before the wind farms were there), but my guess is you'd probably be best off to get your ground launch endorsement and scout out a good place to do auto tows.

A little teaser...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e0/Buffalo_Ridge.jpg

Fly safe!

David
 
If you're looking for info on the Petersen STOL conversion, here's its latest incarnation...

http://www.katmai-260se.com/

I saw a Wren many many years ago, what a slow flight king that one was/is.




quote=Skyhawk4754;293975]Do you have a pic of that plane?[/quote]
 
Steve said:
If you're looking for info on the Petersen STOL conversion, here's its latest incarnation...

http://www.katmai-260se.com/

I saw a Wren many many years ago, what a slow flight king that one was/is.




quote=Skyhawk4754;293975]Do you have a pic of that plane?
Click to expand...
[/quote]

Yes the Wren was impressive. The Peterson conversion only has part of the Wren conversion and lacks the HUGE Fowler flaps. They were too expensive.
Might as well save a bunch of money and install a Sportsman kit. Although none of the kits will make the owner into a "bush pilot."
 
MauleSkinner said:
don't have a picture of the specific airplane, but this is the basic airplane: http://www.howardaircraft.com/N8881N-specs.htm


AAARRRGGH!!! you would ask that, Tony! now you're gonna get me hot to fly gliders again! ;)

Tyler, MN (63Y) looks to be the closest airport, but it's on the east side of the ridge. No airports real close on the west.

Here's the area, centered on the Tyler airport:
http://skyvector.com/#35-12-3-3747-279

It should be on the Omaha sectional. You can see the ridge pretty clearly, as it's covered with windmills. I haven't looked at it from a soaring standpoint for quite a while (since before the wind farms were there), but my guess is you'd probably be best off to get your ground launch endorsement and scout out a good place to do auto tows.

A little teaser...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e0/Buffalo_Ridge.jpg

Fly safe!

David
Click to expand...
my son went to ACE camp @ SDSU last summer,He and a instructor took a glider from worthington all the way to Brookings....he was pretty pumped up after that..... thats why they put up all those wind towers I guess. Like having wind sock all over the place. Kind of fun watching some of those spray boys fly there way around them.

Anybody know of a web site where you can see pictures of different stols for a 57 C-172
 
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