Stick shift or auto?

[dmccormack]

How many of you fellow manual shifters have jammed on the brakes in a rented or borrowed automatic with your left foot in an attempt to disengage the clutch?

I'm also wondering what reasons if any the rest of you have for preferring a stick? These days the sophisticated slushboxes can achieve virtually identical performance and economy as a manual tranny.

Our Accord is manual, the F150 automatic, the Yamaha FZ1 6 speed. Yeah, BTDT.

As far as preference -- in a smaller engine I prefer the control over speed I get in a stick -- the automatic usually upshifts too late for my driving style.

 

[steingar]

Your parents were wise. I just got back from a wake. 21 year old we've known since age 8. Died about 100 yards from the parent's home in the wee hours of Xmas morning. Took a tree in the driver's side door,as our rain had just turned to ice, in a Toyota.

That's horrible Bruce, sorry for your loss.

Driving my MR2 Spyder in the land of ice and snow has made me preternaturally good at driving in the ice and snow. Never bought an automatic and have no plans to. Honda does make a motorcycle with an automatic, because of which I would never consider buying it. Pity, other than that its really sharp.

 

[RMCN172RG]

Personal Car 1 auto, Personal Car 2 auto, Parade Car 1 (Gazelle 29 mercedes replica) Chevy Drive train and Automatic, Parade Car 2 (64 Vette) 4 speed stick.

I'm an automatic guy even though I own a stick. Four hours on Woodward during the Dream Cruise in the Vette and my left leg and foot hurt. In the Gazelle, not so much.

 

[ScottM]

I don't know how to drive an automatic. There aren't enough pedals on the floor. Then too, I don't know how to start a gasoline engine car. When you turn the key half way none of the little lights go off to tell you when to turn it the rest of the way! I spend a lot of time sitting in the driveway trying to figure out how to get a gas driven automatic vehicle to go anywhere.

Barb

I can so relate to this now that I am driving a diesel. I got in my rental car yesterday, a Nissan ultima, that had a push button start. Punched the button, looked for the glow plug indicator and hit the button again. Of course nothing happened. I had to get out the instructions to figure out how to turn it on.

 

[Ted]

Semi-automatic 7-speed double clutch. Best of both worlds...

Funny, the one of those I drove was not only uninspiring and poorly calibrated, but my friends who owned it had so many problems with it (as did other people) that a recall was issued for all cars with that transmission by VW. The car was just recently lemon lawed after 2500 miles.

The car? A 2009 Audi TT. German engineering? Yeah, sure. If I get an automatic transmission, I want a standard American slushbox. They do well.

I buy the vehicles I want to buy, and if I can't get a manual (which is frequently the case), I accept that it's an automatic. I also don't buy new cars, and people who buy manual transmissioned cars seem to keep them forever and there are fewer of them, which makes it harder to buy. My preference, though, is virtually always a stick.

 

[gismo]

Sorry, paddle shift sucks, I prefer a stick in the middle if I'm going to be shifting. I did like the buttons on the wheel of the DB7 though, that was ok because they were pretty much always under my thumbs. Paddles are ok in a race car where you have 3/4 turn lock to lock and most all of the time the paddles are under your finger tips. I was driving a 360 Ferrari with paddles on the street though and it sucked.

I haven't had the opportunity to drive with paddles but I normally keep my hands pretty close to 9&3 O'Clock even when turning and don't expect that I'd have a problem keeping them in reach. I have driven cars with shift buttons on the wheel and didn't like that because the buttons weren't handy when the wheel was turned and my hands were on the sides. I'd certainly want to try driving with paddles before buying a car with them.

 

[gismo]

I learned to drive a fork lift before I drove a car, and that had a manual transmission. My first few cars when I got out of the service had sticks, but I was living in Upstate New York back then. Once I moved back to NYC and had to deal with the stop-and-go traffic again, I started driving automatics.

-Rich

Interesting. My first experience with a clutch was a 25 ton forklift used for moving boats between the water and their berth inside a building. I remember finding that I could just leave the clutch engaged and slowly force the gearshift into forward or reverse with the synchronizers performing the clutch function. I don't think the owner ever did learn about this abuse and fortunately I learned to manage the actual clutch before the transmission was fatally damaged.

 

[gismo]

Personal Car 1 auto, Personal Car 2 auto, Parade Car 1 (Gazelle 29 mercedes replica) Chevy Drive train and Automatic, Parade Car 2 (64 Vette) 4 speed stick.

I'm an automatic guy even though I own a stick. Four hours on Woodward during the Dream Cruise in the Vette and my left leg and foot hurt. In the Gazelle, not so much.

Do they still have stoplight drag races on Woodward at night? Probably way too much traffic at all hours now.

 

[Bob Noel]

How many of you fellow manual shifters have jammed on the brakes in a rented or borrowed automatic with your left foot in an attempt to disengage the clutch?

I did that a long long time ago. Fortunately the guy behind me wasn't
very close.

My motorcycle is a 5-speed, my hybrid is an automatic.

My favorite car was my '93 Ford Explorer Sport with the 5-speed.
But my mother and father prefer the automatic.

 

[SkyHog]

My car is automatic. My fiancee's is a stick. My motorcycle is a stick.

I prefer a stick.

 

[RMCN172RG]

Do they still have stoplight drag races on Woodward at night? Probably way too much traffic at all hours now.

Today's cars and kids, please. The only rubber burning is the third week in August.

 

[steingar]

My car is automatic. My fiancee's is a stick. My motorcycle is a stick.

I prefer a stick.

I really don't want to know where the stick is on your motorcycle.

Your fiancee is old enough to drive?

They do actually have sticks on some custom bikes. Its aptly named the suicide clutch.

 

[SkyHog]

I really don't want to know where the stick is on your motorcycle.

Your fiancee is old enough to drive?

They do actually have sticks on some custom bikes. Its aptly named the suicide clutch.

LOL! Yes she is.

Stick for lack of a better term. The thing I stomp on. Guess its a lever or something?

 

[fgcason]

How many of you fellow manual shifters have jammed on the brakes in a rented or borrowed automatic with your left foot in an attempt to disengage the clutch?

I was jumping from one vehicle to another for a while last year. Whoever's vehicle was the most convinent or available was the one I took. In an automatic I use my left foot on the brake, right on the throttle. Standards are done normally.
I shoved the clutch down a few times and the vehicle to downshift and it reminded me it was an automatic (in my own jeep at that) as it threw everything in the pax seat into the floor in protest.
I also did the same with a friends truck. I came off the highway onto the exit ramp and pushed on the brake to dump speed...and it went all the way to the floor with no deceleration at all. Actually it sped up a bit since I was at idle with a bit of engine braking going on downhill. I then pushed the OTHER brake pedal however there was that moment.

 

[jesse]

In an automatic I use my left foot on the brake, right on the throttle. Standards are done normally

I don't see how that would help matters. Considering how in a manual the right foot is brake or throttle.

 

[dmccormack]

I don't see how that would help matters. Considering how in a manual the right foot is brake or throttle.

Unless you're a two-foot driver...

Every so often I get behind one of those nitwits with the brake lights constantly on.

 

[sba55]

Unless you're a two-foot driver...

Every so often I get behind one of those nitwits with the brake lights constantly on.

Yeah. I've given up trying to figure out why people are so bad at driving. I'd guess 99.8% are terrible at it. I almost never brake on the freeway; you're right, a large percentage of people brake all the time because they're not planning ahead.

Two-foot driving is actually the way to drive if you're into competition driving (Formula 1, etc.). But I guess that's not the kind of drivers you're talking about

 

[Pi1otguy]

Never drove a stick, ever. Heck, there's even a handful of new cars that don't have manual as an option. It's clear that auto is the future (except for high end sports cars).

Have tried that ShifTronic stuff in a BMW and I can never use it well.

So, do you guys actually get 5-15% better acceleration or top speed with a stick in the real world? or is that just in the games?

 

[dmccormack]

Yeah. I've given up trying to figure out why people are so bad at driving. I'd guess 99.8% are terrible at it. I almost never brake on the freeway; you're right, a large percentage of people brake all the time because they're not planning ahead.

Two-foot driving is actually the way to drive if you're into competition driving (Formula 1, etc.). But I guess that's not the kind of drivers you're talking about

Yeah...I don't think they're feathering the clutch/brake into a turn...

More like "ohmygod I'mgoingreallyfastandthereareothercarsallaroundandIdon'tknowwhereIam..!"

 

[dmccormack]

Never drove a stick, ever. Heck, there's even a handful of new cars that don't have manual as an option. It's clear that auto is the future (except for high end sports cars).

Have tried that ShifTronic stuff in a BMW and I can never use it well.

So, do you guys actually get 5-15% better acceleration or top speed with a stick in the real world? or is that just in the games?

This a serious question?

 

[Trapper John]

This a serious question?

I think it's a fair question, and it's going to depend on the car and software these days.


Trapper John

 

[SkyHog]

Never drove a stick, ever. Heck, there's even a handful of new cars that don't have manual as an option. It's clear that auto is the future (except for high end sports cars).

Have tried that ShifTronic stuff in a BMW and I can never use it well.

So, do you guys actually get 5-15% better acceleration or top speed with a stick in the real world? or is that just in the games?

I notice a huge difference in acceleration. Top speed seems about the same, IME.

 

[dmccormack]

I think it's a fair question, and it's going to depend on the car and software these days.


Trapper John

Ummm...ok

The answer to the question is...

Yes.

 

[gprellwitz]

Never drove a stick, ever. Heck, there's even a handful of new cars that don't have manual as an option. It's clear that auto is the future (except for high end sports cars).

Have tried that ShifTronic stuff in a BMW and I can never use it well.

So, do you guys actually get 5-15% better acceleration or top speed with a stick in the real world? or is that just in the games?

Well, I'm usually more interested in getting the best gas mileage, not the best acceleration, so a fast start ain't what I'm going for. If someone is touting both faster acceleration and better gas mileage as benefits of stick, they're thinking like aircraft owners with humongous gas tanks talking about great load carrying capacity and long range. You can only be using one or the other at a given time!

Couldn't you reprogram the computer controlling an automatic to give you whichever you wanted? I don't know that it would be possible to switch while in motion, though. And I'd guess you could say goodbye to your warranty.

Edit: I'm not saying that PG is saying that gas mileage is a benefit, the post just made me think of the comparison.

 

[fgcason]

I don't see how that would help matters. Considering how in a manual the right foot is brake or throttle.

Unless I'm on an open highway, I'm constantly covering the brake. It's like having two fingers over the front brake on a motorcycle. When someone gets stupid, I'm decelerating right then, not having to waste critical distance getting to the brake control. Dozens of feet of travel is useless when inches count.

And no, I don't ride the brake like most of the idgets that do that. If the brake light comes on, I'm either politely telling the idget latcher behind me to back off or I'm scrubbing speed - and probably both.

 

[Steve Foley]

I've got a 1987 Jeep Wrangler in the garage that's a five speed, but hasn't been driven in five years

I bought my son a VW Jetta 5-speed. He hated it until he realized how cool it was. His younger brother ended up with it, and an identical replacement.

They were really disapointed when I came home in my latest vehicle. It's another Jetta. They ran out to the driveway and asked "Is it a five speed?" I said no, and walked into the house.

They looked inside, saw the stick, and called me a liar.

I told them they really need to learn to count.

It's a six-speed.

The bike's a manual too. I think it's a six-speed. I just keep going up until it stops. (1993 CBR1000F)

 

[Trapper John]

Ummm...ok

The answer to the question is...

Yes.

I can build a street/strip car with a TH350 with a trans brake that's a lot faster and quicker in an eigth or quarter than a 4-speed with a line lock, and for less money.


Trapper John

 

[dmccormack]

Well, I'm usually more interested in getting the best gas mileage, not the best acceleration, so a fast start ain't what I'm going for. If someone is touting both faster acceleration and better gas mileage as benefits of stick, they're thinking like aircraft owners with humongous gas tanks talking about great load carrying capacity and long range. You can only be using one or the other at a given time!

Couldn't you reprogram the computer controlling an automatic to give you whichever you wanted? I don't know that it would be possible to switch while in motion, though. And I'd guess you could say goodbye to your warranty.

Edit: I'm not saying that PG is saying that gas mileage is a benefit, the post just made me think of the comparison.

The shiftronic I had in my Chrysler 300m was supposed to "Learn" your driving style in manual mode and adapt in auto mode. Not sure if it ever did (I was in manual mode more often).

I drive my 4cyl Accord pretty hard, and get 30 MPG. If I really baby it I can get 35 MPG.

Guess which style wins?

 

[dmccormack]

I can build a street/strip car with a TH350 with a trans brake that's a lot faster and quicker than a 4-speed with a line lock, and for less money.


Trapper John

Yeah, and a single speed rocket can go faster than any car.

We were discussing production cars which had an option of manual or auto.

You'll get better performance and fuel economy in a small manual than in an automatic, all other factors equal.

 

[Trapper John]

Yeah, and a single speed rocket can go faster than any car.

We were discussing production cars which had an option of manual or auto.

You'll get better performance and fuel economy in a small manual than in an automatic, all other factors equal.

You're right, for something like a Mazda Miata. New full-size pickup, the automatic's going to win. Like I said it depends on the car and the software, if you even have a choice of trans, which in most cases you don't any more. People like ZF are building 7- and 8-speed autos without torque converters that shift as fast as you can blink - no way your left leg and right arm can match that stuff.


Trapper John

 

[Lawreston]

How many of you fellow manual shifters have jammed on the brakes in a rented or borrowed automatic with your left foot in an attempt to disengage the clutch?

Heh! The Austin Healey(4-spd stick) having been in sick bay for 7 years, when the new engine became functional in the recent October it became my daily transportation(except for rain and/or otherwise damp and leafy pavement).

When I'd downgrade to the Chevy S-10(automatic) some strange reflex appeared as I'd reach down and right with my right hand to shift to 1st gear. Duhhh! The Buick is automatic, the Harley is foot shift manual, the boat is "Push-go forward; pull-go back." I learned to drive in a 1951 Plymouth Cranbrook convertible which my Dad had bought(his car) for $1250. It had the traditional 3 on the column shift.

HR

 

[Lawreston]

. . . . . and when downshifting there can be such a nice exhaust sound -- the Austin Healey sound is just about as identifiable as the Harley's mellifluous tones.

HR

 

[brcase]

The Jeep Commanche, F-150, Honda 750 and Yamaha Roadstar are all Manual.
The Honda 90 is a semi-auto (no clutch)

I prefer manuals becuase the usually get better gas mileage and I have never had a manual transmission fail. I can also replace clutches cheaper than I can replace a transmission. My jeep has 265,000 miles and is on the 2nd clutch, the only reason I replaced the clutch is I had to open it up to replace the slave cylinder that failed.

Brian

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

I'd say it's worthwhile for everybody to at least know how to drive a manual. For instance, suppose you're up in the mountains with your buddy, and you take his car, which is a manual. What if he gets into some kind of trouble where it's you stuck driving the car? An emergency isn't the time to be learning how to operate a stick shift!

As for me, I've got a pickup with an automatic, and a jeep with a manual. They've both got advantages, and they've both got drawbacks.

One thing I've never liked about an automatic, though, is that in the ones I've driven, you can't take advantage of an engine's torque, and instead rely on RPM's. It makes for a lot of unnecessary wear on both the engine (from the RPM's) and the transmission (from more frequent shifting) depending on how you drive and where you are. With the one I've got now, it's not too much of an issue; but with ones in the past, it used to make me cringe (my overly active imagination could hear the poor 4Runner crying).

 

[steingar]

The day they can make an automatic on something I might actually buy that outperforms me, I'll buy it. I don't see that day coming soon, though.

 

[jesse]

Unless I'm on an open highway, I'm constantly covering the brake. It's like having two fingers over the front brake on a motorcycle. When someone gets stupid, I'm decelerating right then, not having to waste critical distance getting to the brake control. Dozens of feet of travel is useless when inches count.

And no, I don't ride the brake like most of the idgets that do that. If the brake light comes on, I'm either politely telling the idget latcher behind me to back off or I'm scrubbing speed - and probably both.

Ok, I have yet to ever drive an automatic that is ergonomically configured for two foot driving. I'm not sure what your doing that in with any degree of comfort/function. The distance between the gas and brake isn't wife enough and forces you to put a leg underneath the steering wheel. That might work in a few select automobiles but certainly not the majority.

 

[fgcason]

Ok, I have yet to ever drive an automatic that is ergonomically configured for two foot driving. I'm not sure what your doing that in with any degree of comfort/function. The distance between the gas and brake isn't wife enough and forces you to put a leg underneath the steering wheel. That might work in a few select automobiles but certainly not the majority.

It's not uncomfortable or awkward in the least unless the steering column descends into the floorboard just left of the brake pedal. You just have to try it and see for yourself. It's not like you have to put your left foot over in the pax floorboard or anything.
As for ergonomics, the first and foremost responsibility is to fly the plane...or vehicle, everything else is secondary.

 

[jesse]

It's not uncomfortable or awkward in the least unless the steering column descends into the floorboard just left of the brake pedal. You just have to try it and see for yourself. It's not like you have to put your left foot over in the pax floorboard or anything.
As for ergonomics, the first and foremost responsibility is to fly the plane...or vehicle, everything else is secondary.

I typed that message on an iPhone while driving at 75mph on the interstate. There was simply no way it would work without extreme annoyance. I've also messed with two feet driving in my previous vehicles. They simply aren't designed for it.

For example, in my sunfire, if you move your left foot to the brake that puts your left knee directly underneath teh steering wheel and severely degrades steering.

As for ergonomics, the first and foremost responsibility is to fly the plane...or vehicle, everything else is secondary.

As far as the above, well, ergonomics play a huge roll in your ability to drive. If something is awkward and clearly not designed for it -- there is no way you can safely do it. There is a reason the world isn't taught to drive with two feet.

 

[ScottM]

Unless I'm on an open highway, I'm constantly covering the brake. It's like having two fingers over the front brake on a motorcycle. When someone gets stupid, I'm decelerating right then, not having to waste critical distance getting to the brake control. Dozens of feet of travel is useless when inches count.

And no, I don't ride the brake like most of the idgets that do that. If the brake light comes on, I'm either politely telling the idget latcher behind me to back off or I'm scrubbing speed - and probably both.

Are you sure?? Just a little touching of the peddle will put the brake lights on. I see it all the time.

 

[Pi1otguy]

This a serious question?

Yes. I was going to expand to the cost/benefit of changing out several clutches over an auto's 1 tranny (say 6-10 year ownership) but figured no one here on the internet ever wears out a clutch.

I notice a huge difference in acceleration. Top speed seems about the same, IME.

So, to use a real world example. You're saying that if you were at an old style freeway onramp (basically a short T intersection with the slow lane) with an 7 year old car. You have to merge from a dead stop on a short on-ramp. Would you be confident enough not to stall or grind gears vs the dependable low acceleration of an older auto?